Honda HRR2163 Transmission

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  #1  
Old 04-22-17, 05:40 PM
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Honda HRR2163 Transmission

So I finally got all my replacement parts for my Honda but I'm still having some trans issues, I think. When I first fire it up and I engage the self propel clutch the wheels will spin, but not enough to overcome the weight of the mower. And if it runs longer then it eventually just won't spin. And it just seems sluggish even if I'm pushing with the mower off, like there's quite a bit of resistance going on. I've already tightened the clutch cable as I had read that causes quite a few problems. Anything else to look for? The belt looked ok, wasn't frayed, etc.

What else?

Thanks everyone.
 
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  #2  
Old 04-22-17, 06:46 PM
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How is the tension on the belt?
 
  #3  
Old 04-22-17, 07:24 PM
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It seems "tight" to the touch, but I would take that with the world's most minuscule grain of salt. Is there a way to objectively say what's good or bad? Like, should it not have any give at all?

I was just about to edit my original post to add a little more detail. When I first got the mower the clutch wouldn't engage at all, so the first thing I tried was adjusting the tension on the cable. I put a pair of pliers on the end of the cable and pulled and eventually the clutch engaged. So I guess it's conceivable I didn't get that tight enough. I owe it to myself to double check that, and will.

Further, I've read a bit about possibly some bushings getting gunked up in addition to different adjustments in the control arm and some other springs. Are the bushings just the collars that are out at the snap rings where it mates to the cutter housings? And spring adjustments....I've attached a picture of my trans, what exactly are people adjusting when they adjust tension/controls arms/etc.? I'm pretty mechanically inclined, but this is new enough to me that dumbing it down doesn't hurt.Attachment 79924

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  #4  
Old 04-28-17, 10:55 AM
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Hey Cheese, I figured it'd be easier to just show you the belt tension rather than try to guess to it's status. Below is just a quick YouTube video of me pushing/squeezing on it (hope you like the Eagles!).

https://youtu.be/pPgGZd10ClA

Further, I'll add as a detail. If I understand my below trans picture correctly then my self propel cable attaches to piece #8, right? When I engage the self propel handle, that piece #8 is being "pulled" until the shoulder on the cable, more or less, touches the cutter housing. I presume this to mean it is fully engaged?

Any other ideas? The trans is not serviceable, right? Has anyone ever opened it up to check it out? Is it anything easy?
 
  #5  
Old 04-28-17, 11:05 AM
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Looks like the belt is probably tight enough. Might need to check the pulleys to be sure the belt isn't riding so deep that it's hitting the bottom of the V groove instead of the sides of the sheaves. Those plastic pulleys are known to do that.
 
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Old 04-28-17, 11:27 AM
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Just to cover the bases, have you pulled off the wheels and verified all is good there?

You might be able to get viewing access through the bagger chute, if you can safely view the tranny pulley and belt with it running and propel engaged, you should be able to tell if the belt is slipping.
 
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Old 04-28-17, 07:57 PM
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Just to cover the bases, have you pulled off the wheels and verified all is good there?
Yes, the guy gave me the mower with almost none of the correct parts. So I bought all new, pulled all retaining clips/etc. and cleaned up that whole interface.

You might be able to get viewing access through the bagger chute, if you can safely view the tranny pulley and belt with it running and propel engaged, you should be able to tell if the belt is slipping.
I don't believe I can. I believe the bagger chute sheet metal is all an integral part of the cutter housing, unless I'm just seeing incorrectly. Out of curiosity, does the crank have to be loaded? As in, what if I just pulled the blade off then looked at it while it's running (insert every single safety precaution ever possible)?
 
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Old 04-28-17, 08:00 PM
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Might need to check the pulleys to be sure the belt isn't riding so deep that it's hitting the bottom of the V groove instead of the sides of the sheaves.
Noted, will do. I'll probably just pull the whole trans to get a good look at it then try to get a couple better pics.

I'm really surprised none of you guys have opened one of these up to prod around. From some other forums I've read sometimes the clutch friction material wears and starts to gum things up.

And last thing, it becomes very hard to push after a while, any ideas on how to freewheel it in the meantime? Perhaps pull the pulley off?
 
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Old 04-29-17, 07:54 AM
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Don't see many Honda's since the closest place to purchase is 60 miles away. When I do see one the trannies always seem to work fine but the deck, wheels and handles are falling away.


Not sure if this is your specific model but, item #8 should allow you access to view the tranny if removed...???
 
  #10  
Old 04-29-17, 03:04 PM
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Thanks for the tips guys. Got the access panel off, ran it cold and watched. Clutch engaged and the wheel shaft spun. It did not appear to slip, looked to be "fast," but the more it ran the slower it got and eventually it just stopped spinning the wheel shaft but the pulley was still spinning in sync with the crank.

So then I pulled it out to bench test, so to speak. New video below, but basically with the clutch engaged the pulley won't turn the shaft. But if I turn the shaft, it will turn the pulley.

https://youtu.be/JYQ5l_23voc

Any other thoughts? Would love to hear my bench test was somehow flawed.
 

Last edited by farmerjg; 04-29-17 at 03:26 PM.
  #11  
Old 04-29-17, 03:15 PM
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Oh, and pulley pics for The Cheese!
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  #12  
Old 04-29-17, 07:46 PM
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Well, for better or worse, problem solved. I done used up all of my friction coating in my clutch.

I took apart my transmission to get an idea what's going on in there. Upon retrospect and seeing the inners, of course the pulley spins when I turn the shaft. When driving the gear mesh from the shaft side there's no need for the clutch because I'm forcing the gears to work. This pic is of the trans split open. The pulley shaft is the silver one sticking up out of the ball bearings. Immediately to it's left is the clutch lever. When you engage the clutch that lever rotates and pushes the angled piece in the above half. That in turn sandwiches those components together and forces the spur gears to rotate whicch in turn drives your wheels.
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When I engage the clutch and try the pulley as the drive I literally have too much axial space between the clutch lever and subsequent spacers/friction material/gear/etc. My finger in this picture is acting as the clutch lever. Additionally, in the upper right you can see what I am presuming to be worn friction material. So my friction material is so worn away that my clutch lever doesn't provide enough clamp. So instead of clamping up to the helical and spinning the spur gears, I get bupkis.
<ugh! Why can't I add any photos right now?!?!>

So, here I am. This is ridiculous that this (likely) $3 friction piece is cause for Honda to say I need to replace the whole trans. I do quite a bit of work with friction surfaces at work so I'm slightly versed in the topic. I might even have access to an SEM to tell me exactly what Honda used for OE materials. For now my money is on some copper type material. So I can either find a replacement friction coating (which Honda will never tell me) or, if I want to be a hill-jack, I'm honestly thinking about adding some spacers into my stack so that when I engage the clutch the thing has no choice but to clamp up because it is do damn tight in there. Any other ideas that involve not spending $100 on a new trans?
 
  #13  
Old 04-30-17, 01:19 AM
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Shim it up with a thrust washer and it will probably go again for a little while. I've opened a few of the self propelled transmissions but usually when I find one not working, I put another one in or the customer opts out of the repair.
 
  #14  
Old 04-30-17, 05:58 AM
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Shim it up with a thrust washer
Size or material recommendations? I've never seen one new so I don't know how much stack up there should be through there. Though at a minimum I can play with it knowing what I know now about how the clutch arm works.
 
  #15  
Old 04-30-17, 12:11 PM
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No idea on size, you'll have to observe it and see how much it needs. It might be good with a .010" shim or so. If you put a .010" shim behind the clutch disk, it's sort of like adding .010" of material back on the disk.
 
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Old 05-01-17, 09:47 AM
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So, I guess I keep learning more and more. What are the chances there isn't actually any friction material (and instead the clamp does all the work) in the clutch setup? My helical was actually pretty chewed up, and I'm thinking the material I was seeing was helical shavings.

As I went through the rest of the stack up nothing (with one exception) looked particularly worn. But as I got to the very end my last roller bearing had eaten away the plastic of the housing it was in. So the rollers had actually kind of been caked over with plastic. So I cleaned out the roller and I cleaned up the housing. I also added a washer onto the end on that side to try to get my helical contact pattern back to "normal."

That roller was definitely gunked up. I'm thinking that that's what was heating up and causing drag issues after it got warm.

So, it's been raining buckets and I haven't actually been able to mow, but with that all cleaned up, the new washer, and a clutch tension adjustment the wheels spin infinitely faster than they ever did. So I'm going to try to get out tonight to see if it stays free. So far, 1000% better, but I need to actually mow with it to get a better idea.

Last question, should self propel be enough to move the lawnmower with no human assist? If it is, then I might still have a problem.
 
  #17  
Old 05-01-17, 12:32 PM
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It should be able to move the mower if it can get the traction, or spin the wheels if it can't. If it's slipping, it's generating heat somewhere and that will lead to problems.
 
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