Toro CCR2000 Governor Adjustment

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  #1  
Old 12-27-17, 11:40 AM
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Toro CCR2000 Governor Adjustment

I gave an old CCR2000 I had for years to my son in law, after purchasing a Snow Commander for myself. He got the CCR running this week, but it ran for awhile and stopped. I fixed the reason for the stoppage, but when I got it runing again, I realized that when I gave it to him years ago. The engine liked to "hunt" for a cruising speed (when not engaged to blow snow) even when it was new. It is running nicely in my garage, except for the "constant" hunting for a steady rpm. I cannot find a service manual for this engine online, but from the look of it, I thought the governor might adjust like an old Briggs, (loosen the governor rod, advance the throttle to fully open, and turn the governor shaft where it protrudes from the engine fully counterclockwise and retighten) If it were not 1 degree in my workshop , I would experiment, but thought you guys might know the proper procedure for this engine. Model number 38185 Serial #7005971. (a Toro Engine possibly manufactured by Suzuki?)
 
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Old 12-27-17, 12:53 PM
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Go to Toro.com select Parts and Manuals enter the Model Number select the serial number range and check out the service manual. Have a good one. Geo
 
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Old 12-27-17, 03:15 PM
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As long as it runs good under load and is not hunting to the point of almost dying then recovering, I would not adjust anything. If it is just a quick vroom-vroom-vroom and not a varooom.....chug chug chug vaaaroooom...I find that about normal for may tillers and pressure washers.
As long as it pulls under a load good and your spark plug is not carbon fouled or white...Run it.
 
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Old 12-27-17, 03:46 PM
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I agree with BFH. Have a good one. Geo
 
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Old 12-27-17, 07:36 PM
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Toro CCR2000

I have to say that it hunts on the good side of the description you mentioned. and it has always pulled a snow load fine before it got a wad of left over varnish left in the float bowl. Makes life easier for me to just snap the covers back on it from your advice. Thanks for the replies!
 
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Old 12-27-17, 08:35 PM
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I agree, if it's only no load hunting and it did it since new, it may never stop. It's a slightly lean condition and with EPA regs these days, many engines come brand new running too lean.
 
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Old 12-28-17, 07:11 AM
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Toro CCR2000

Without offending the other moderators who replied, it is always great to hear from the Cheese Man! I have always been super fussy about the engines I own running right, but the EPA has forced me to adapt. When I REALLY retire, I can play around with putting an additional adustable jet in some of these sealed carbs and just be a bad boy...
 
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Old 12-28-17, 06:26 PM
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I have gone in and used a torch tip cleaner to open the idle circuit jet when they are accessible... just a tiny tiny bit, like a thousandth of an inch or less... just enough to let it run decently. Running lean isn't great for an engine but it's a lot easier on a 4 stroke than it is a 2-stroke. If it's okay at full load then it's probably not hurting anything.
 
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Old 12-29-17, 05:48 AM
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I am not 100% convinced it has to be a lean condition. The Briggs cert I have to do each year and training for it states hunting is not always a lean condition.
Another reason for this is it runs fine under load and the spark plugs show normal mixture burn with light tan coating. Also the units I see this on like tillers and pressure washers that run under heavy load, and the difference in the hunt...it may be that it is slightly rich or the governor is weighted a bit different....
 
  #10  
Old 12-29-17, 07:55 AM
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Toro CCR 2000

I dropped off the machine to my son in law yesterday, and ran another test. It started and plowed snow fine, but I still don't like the way it hunts. It is closer to the "almost" dying" than when I answered your original reply to my ;post. I tried to find a toro service manual for this engine, but you have to order it from a dealer, you can't get it online. I can pull a few strings I think to get somebody at Toro to at least look at the gov adjustment specs, or maybe you guys have access to that section on this engine.
 
  #11  
Old 12-29-17, 08:33 AM
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The service manual at the Toto site is in PDF form you can review it online or print it or just print the pages you need, no need to purchase it. Have a good one. Geo
 
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Old 12-29-17, 11:14 AM
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If you can apply partial choke and the surging goes away, it's a lean condition. I've seen many that surged even when brand new and the ones that I decided to fix were fixed by increasing either the idle circuit or the main jet, depending on how it was behaving.
 
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Old 12-29-17, 03:27 PM
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I agree with the choke application :thumbsup:

I have tried on some, mainly pressure washers and some generators with no throttle control and the choke did not help...just started coughing a bit and some black smoke.

I need to revisit that part of the training vids as it comes up every year on the test and always the same
One tech has this scenario and says A:
The other tech has another scenario and says B:

-Both techs are incorrect.
-Both techs are correct.
-Tech A is correct
-Tech B is correct.

I generally just watch enough to find the answer they want as I recall it made no sense to me...

I do remember one check was to screw the idle adjustment all the way in then hold the throttle valve open with your thumb just past that point, if it smoothed out..........??? LOL I never can remember what after that.

In my mind if it smooths out when you take the governor out by holding the throttle valve, that would say the carb is ok...but I don't think that is what the answer was.....

I will see if I can find that video and post it and see if anyone sees what I am missing...
 
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Old 12-29-17, 03:43 PM
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Is this your unit ?
Engine

The Toro CCR-2000 snow thrower is designed for residential and light commercial use. The engine assigned to the CCR-2000 is a Suzuki single-stage discharge engine with 4.5 horsepower. The motor model is 47PS5-4.
Gas and Oil

The engine uses Toro 2-cycle/NMMA-TCW3 engine oil. The mix ratio for the Toro CCR 2000 is 50:1. The snow thrower requires 2.6 oz. of oil for every gallon of gasoline. Add the mixture before starting the engine.
 
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Old 12-29-17, 04:22 PM
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Often on generators and pressure washers, since they don't get used very often, the throttle shaft gets gummed up and doesn't move freely. So what happens is instead of the governor being able to make slight adjustments, it pushes lightly on the linkage and it doesn't move, the engine rpm drops even more and the governor puts even more pressure on, and the engine drops more, and finally the governor has put enough pressure on it to make it move, but then it goes too far with all that pressure and then the engine is past the upper limits and the governor puts pressure to close it and the same thing happens until it finally gives and goes to far the other way and it maintains this overreacting cycle in rapid succession which makes it surge, usually wildly when this is the case.
 
  #16  
Old 12-30-17, 07:41 AM
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Toro CCR2000

BH Fixit. Your description is correct, I have the 4.5 Suzuki that to my knowledge was built for Toro.
 
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Old 12-30-17, 10:58 AM
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The main thing then is that it is two stroke and is dependent on fuel supply for oiling as well, along the mention cheese made in his earlier post.
Best way to check proper fuel/air is the condition of the spark plug. If you see a white or light gray then it is running lean. Proper mixture should yield a light tan/brown.
 
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Old 12-30-17, 01:24 PM
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Good catch, if it's 2 stroke, I would not want it running lean. This is why I shy away from snowblower questions, because I've never worked on one and have no familiarity with them. I'm too far South for snow.
 
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Old 12-30-17, 01:32 PM
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I get a few in here cheese but aint had much need for my tenor since being back in the land of Oz. Even when I was up in the PACNW the I-5 corridor never seen much snow nor did I a snow blower. So most are just green gooky carbs and cheap ass MTD chineese engines.
 
  #20  
Old 12-30-17, 02:43 PM
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While it is running spray/dribble some carb/brake parts cleaner behind the carb and along all the mating surfaces if the engine tempo changes you have an air leak and can take the appropriate action. Have a good one. Geo
 
  #21  
Old 12-31-17, 09:41 AM
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Ccr2000

Thanks Gentlemen, you have given me enough data to proceed. I will post back when I have something positive to share!
 
  #22  
Old 02-12-18, 03:10 PM
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Same unit carburetor question

I hope WML13 got his problem solved. Not sure if anyone is following since this is an older thread but will give it a try.

Since this thread is about a similar unit I hope you don't mind my asking one question about the carburetor, Toro's number is 95-7935. Haven't been able to find an answer anywhere.

My question refers to the "adjustment screw" with spring that goes in on an angle, top right of carb. Is there what one might refer to as a factory setting...a starting point?

With all due respect, it's probably best not to expand on my proverbial dilemma, but I DO appreciate any and all replies.

Thanks for your time time.
 
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Old 02-12-18, 03:16 PM
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That screw is only an idle adjustment, 1 1/2 turns out should do it.
 
  #24  
Old 02-12-18, 07:28 PM
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Toro CCR2000 Governor Adjustment

i found the governor adjustment in a Toro Service manual. Toro used several two cycle engines in 1997 on both snow and lawn equipment, and the same procedure applied to engines for both. I found that my son in law, screwed up the float bowl nut threads, creating a leak that I may not be able to seal without a new carb. I may also need a new ignition module, which will predicate throwing this unit into spare parts pile. So I may be the new owner of a Snow Master sooner than I expected...
 
  #25  
Old 02-13-18, 10:17 AM
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Mikuni 95-7935 after market carb

Thank you for the speedy reply BFHFixit!

Just had the unit out with a new (after market) carb. Fired up fine and cleared 3 paths of 8"+ snow. Worked great. Didn't bog down, had enough power to throw the snow. BUT...it didn't take long for the unit to wanna die out. I stopped throwing snow and just let it idle. Started hunting, then eventually shut down.

I sure don't want to return to unit to my customer this way, especially after installing new paddles and carb, so I'm a bit stumped.

FYI: The new carb's adjustment screw was about 2 full turns out as it came out of the box. Doesn't do much for the idle speed. I suspect it's a mixture for extra "oomph" (richer mix) when it hits the snow. (Sort of like the older carbs on the Toro S200 that that 2 screws if you remember.

New plug, fresh 50:1 mix, new gas filter, etc.

Any thoughts? Much appreciated.
 
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Old 02-13-18, 11:23 AM
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DOes it start and run well again after dying? Sounds like it ran out of gas, like the tank developed a vacuum or the supply is restricted.
 
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Old 02-13-18, 12:29 PM
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Thanks for the input Cheese. Didn't run out of gas. I suspected gas cap venting as well, but doubt if that's the case. Yesterday it started up again and ran fine for a few minutes before dying.

Today (since I now have the lower shield off) I noticed a flooding condition; btm of bowl wet. Either a defective carb or possibly some crud flowed downstream and stopped the needle from fully closing. I'll pull the bowl and check things out.

Thanks again. Will keep you posted.
 
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Old 02-17-18, 03:29 PM
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Probably should have started a new post with original discussing governor. Sorry.

UPDATE: After pulling the float bowl off noticed a few tiny back pieces floating around, probably disintegrating fuel line. Used compressed air on the carb then installed new fuel lines after blowing out the filter.

Nothings changed. Could be a fuel delivery problem (maybe even a defective new carb) but ran across two possibilities: A) Ignition coil over heating then losing spark, B) Crankcase sucking air.

When it stopped, clipped a spark tester to the plug and then into the plug boot. Tried starting using pull cord. Was hard seeing the spark being outside but sure felt it. LOL By the time I got back in the garage it started again with electric start. Not discounting a coil going bad with spark getting weaker.

Crankcase gasket: Pulled the muffler for grins. Couldn't see any obvious leaks at crankcase seams but did notice what appeared to be a separation between crankcase halves at left corner (shroud side). The engine appears to have been wet from that point across to the right but doesn't mean much since it's right under the muffler.

Considering to check for crankcase leak...sucking air. Thank goodness the owner is patient. Me...another story.
 
  #29  
Old 02-17-18, 08:01 PM
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Since I have not seen who made the engine I will guess it is a Tecumseh and since you mentioned it has a bowl on the carb, if so the bowl nut is the main jet, it has a hole through the center, one across the bottom and a very tiny one near the top of the threads, I use the wire from aa bread tie to clean it, clean those and you will be good to go. Have a good one. Geo
 
  #30  
Old 02-18-18, 06:26 AM
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Geo

The snow blower I've been working on is a 1991 CCR 2000E (Model 38185) with a Suzuki engine. Definitely a bowl carb, but the kicker is it has a brand new carb on it. The original was too far gone to clean. Couldn't even get the main jet and nozzle out to clean.

Thanks for the comment though.
 
  #31  
Old 02-18-18, 08:28 AM
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Ccr2000

I also have the CCR2000 with the Suzuki engine. The bowl nut does not have the holes drilled in it like the Tecumseh's do. I can see a jet screwed into the carb above where the bowl nut screws into the carb, and am going after that to open it up a bit to richen the mixture. I have the test procedures to test the coil as I am almost there in the removal of that.
 
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Old 02-18-18, 10:01 AM
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I can see a jet screwed into the carb above where the bowl nut screws into the carb
That jet should thread out and may also be an emulsion tube. Something similar to these:



Best if so to remove it and soak, blow, poke etc. until all the holes are open. If still unable to see light through, you can get wire gauge drill bits at a good hardware store. Find the smallest you can and it should fit loosely in the jet until the restriction. Some of these I have yet to find a wire or any probe small enough to fit through, even when I can see light through them and they work.

Torch tip cleaner or a wire from a bread tie will clean the emulsion tube holes.
 
  #33  
Old 02-18-18, 11:38 AM
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WML13:

All I can add is to be REAL careful unscrewing the main jet (small one) and the main nozzle (longer one). being made of of brass they are buggers. (One reason I had to buy a new carb.

Interested in that test procedure. Most tests I'm aware of are either good or bad...no in between.

Good luck!
 
  #34  
Old 02-18-18, 05:46 PM
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Toro CCR 2000

Thanks for the photo of the jets. I got the carb completely out of the unit today. Upon closer examination, I found stripped threads in the tube that fastens the bowl nut to the carburetor. I also found a hairline crack near the hole that allows the fuel to flow from the bowl into the tube where the jets are. this crack runs from the hole all the way down to the bottom of the tube. I do not know if this can be fixed. I would be interested where steverino got his carburetor (aftermarket) Toro wants more than this unit is worth for a new one. I also got a test ;procedure from the Toro Service manual which says..." Ignition coils used with models that specify the the 47PD3 47PE-4 and 47PF5 (which mine does) consists of the main coil, high tension wire and ignition kill wire" Testing of the coil may be completed with a Graham Lee ignition tester model number 31-SMXH. Instructions are with the tester" Does anyone know if this coil can be tested at all with a regular ohm meter? My test numbers do not coincide with the test numbers for OTHER coils used on other engines used for this model CCR2000 38185-7000001 and up (that's 1987, not 1997) (I found the original book for it.) There is also an XStar Module in the line where the ignition switch goes to the coil. Toro PN 81-8640. What does this module do? Can it be tested for correct operation?
 
  #35  
Old 02-18-18, 08:07 PM
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IMHO it's not worth the trouble attempting to fix the carb. I bought the after market thru Amazon. Just google the carb p/n and Toro. Actual seller was HOOAI-US Direct ship. Only about $30.00. Purchased after markets in the past with ok results. You might be able to get them cheaper but "buyer beware". At first I was suspecting a defective new carb for this 38185 but have discounted that.

I believe the p/n you provided 81-8640 is the actual coil. Anyway, as for the coil test and the numbers you got I don't have a solid answer, but wouldn't spend the bucks on that Graham Lee tester. Coils for the 38185 are $$$$$ too. Used between $70.00 and $100.00+ and I wouldn't trust a used one, even if the seller states "Tested, has spark".

I've experienced "good" coils opening up as they get hot then quit, or getting weaker then quit. I imagine you checked the coil gap before you took it off?

If you test your with a regular ohm meter, share your results. Will check mine when I get that far and we'll compare. Quite frankly, I'm not 100% sure yet as to exactly what 47P engine is on the one I'm working on. Our OLD Toro mower had the 47P. Had so much trouble with it the thing took a trip to the curb one day last century. LOL Wish I would have saved the coil.

As for the 38185 I've been working on (s/n 1004446) I'm slowing down. Getting to the point of no return. Heck, it's 26/27 years old or more. Somethings just not adding up. Could even be sucking air thru the crankcase gasket. Fortunately the owner understands...and the snow has let up around here for now.
 
  #36  
Old 02-19-18, 08:01 AM
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Thanks for the info on the Amazon code. I will check the gap again, and re test the coil without the mentioned Xstar module in the way and give you the readings to compare. I can live with investing 30 bucks on a will fit carb. It is my snowblower anyway. I just have a feeling this coil is bad, and failing intermittantly. Hopefully the test readings will indicate that it is all good or all bad...
 
  #37  
Old 02-22-18, 10:41 AM
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What type of gas are you using? Regular, Plus, Premium. With ethanol or without? I have a four stroke pressure washer that hunts if I use anything less than Premium. And I never use ethanol gas in anything around the house except my truck.
 
  #38  
Old 02-22-18, 01:18 PM
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Toro CCR 2000

For MAD SCIENTIST I have always just used regular gas, but I get it about the ethanol. may be worth a try. Fpr STEVERINO. i got the mag out for better connections and got the following readings. (this engine is a Suzuki 47PG6- 506075 which according to the service manual can be tested with an OHM meter. I got the following readings per the manual procedure. Test the primary winding by connecting the positive lead of the ohm meter to the ignition coil lead with the negative lead to ground. reading should be .82-1.1 ohms RX1 My reading was between 5 and 10 on the analog ohm meter I have. Reading for the secondary, connecting to the spark plug wire lead, and ground. Meter set at RX1000 , supposed to be between 5800-7940 , the ohm needle was steady on the the number 10 on the scale (10000 ohms?). Enough of a variance to determine intermittant failure? looking for answers!
 
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Old 02-22-18, 02:40 PM
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I have found those tests are mostly just informative unless they fail miserably. If you find a dead short or an open you can determine it bad but if it tests good it can still be the problem. Actually have seen some manuals provide the test to check, then continue checking this and that and if all the rest checks ok, then say to replace the mag with a known good one. Especially with an analog meter that you have to zero.
In the first test what are you using for ground? Test should be done with mag removed and test the lead to the stack on the mag, Same with the high tension lead. High tension to the stack I see anywhere from 4k to 20k ohms still work.
 
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Old 02-22-18, 02:51 PM
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I was trying to keep from removing the mag, so I tested it still on the engine. I was using a bolt on the engine block as a ground for both tests. I know I can get fire when the engine is cold, but wasn't sure with the carb problems whether the mag was killing the engine after warm up, or the split carb tube where the bowl nut screws into was eventually killing it due to a fuel issue. What you are saying is that I shouldn't be two worried about the readings I AM getting on the Mag unless of course I have something shorting out intermittently due to heat build up etc?
 
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