Older Kohler K engine

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  #1  
Old 04-07-18, 06:41 AM
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Older Kohler K engine

My question pertains to the fuel pump, but I suspect that I might have another question or two related to other issues I could run into, hence the more general title. Anyway, I have an early-mid 60's Motomower with a Kohler K161 7 H.P. engine that I am going to give a shot at restoring before possibly scrapping it. My dad bought it new, so it's always been in the family, and by the time it needed any significant maintenance he was turning a lot of that over to me, so I have a fairly intimate relationship with it, except that it has now sat, unused, for something like 15 years. It turns over by hand, and has good "suction", so I figured I would start with the fuel system, and removed the carburetor, tank, and fuel pump to clean them. The carburetor and fuel tank are gummed up pretty badly, but my real concern now is the fuel pump. The fuel pump bolts to the side of the block, and has an opening in the back where I believe there should be an arm that runs off the cam shaft, and I can see the camshaft fine through the hole, but there is no arm on the fuel pump. So first off, there should be an arm on the pump, correct? And if so, where is it? I do not recall ever removing the fuel pump, and if anyone did it was probably me, but I can't believe that I would have let it fall out and then thrown it away when I swept the floor or whatever. The only logical thing seems to be that it came loose and went into the crankcase, but I'm not seeing space for it to slip past the camshaft. But is that possible, and if so what to do about it, short of a complete tear down? Any thoughts or experience in this regard.
 
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Old 04-07-18, 08:03 AM
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Well, I've answered my own question for now. I guess I was hoping for someone to say that some of these pumps were pulse operated, but that makes no sense since the opening between the crankcase and pump is something like an inch square. So there has to be an arm that is either in the crankcase or that I foolishly let fall out at some point. I have the crankcase draining so will see if I can fish anything through the drain hole. But I'm also thinking that it's quite likely aluminum, making it harder to retrieve, so am still open to any thoughts, but will most likely have to decide whether to open the crankcase or scrap it while I'm still ahead of the game.
 
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Old 04-07-18, 08:57 AM
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Well, don't mind me, just been sort of talking to myself here :-) but I think that I finally have a legitimate question. The most baffling thing about the possibility of the arm falling out or me having lost it was that there was no evidence of it ever having been there, no tabs or anything that would have held it in place and no scratches that should have been visible if it had slipped out and been banged by the camshaft as it worked its way into the crankcase. So I did a little more googling and didn't find much about them, but mention of some of these engines having vacuum operated pumps, then decided to disassemble the pump. The thing that stands out is there is no brass washer and rivet like I would expect to find in the center of a mechanically operated diaphragm. This seems to point to it never having an arm. Does this make sense? And I couldn't understand how they could hold sufficient vacuum to operate the pump through about a 1" square opening, but inside the pump is a much smaller orifice before the diaphragm. I'm still going to poke around in the crankcase, but interested in any thoughts.
 
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Old 04-07-18, 10:24 AM
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I am pretty sure there should be an arm there...never seen one come off though.
If you can find the spec # to be exact but the manual shows it having an arm.

You can get parts manual and likely service manual @ kohlerplus.com but you have to use IE. Accept the terms and enter as guest.

it's javascript so I don't know how to post the pic.
 
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Old 04-07-18, 10:33 AM
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I do have the owners manual and service manual for this engine, which I downloaded from the Kohler site at some point. And you're right, all it shows is a pump with an arm. I'm doing some other things today too, this is just one of those fill in fun projects that I usually have going on the side, and obviously not sure myself, so not disagreeing at all, but the more I think about it the more I'm thinking that this one didn't have an arm because the diaphragm is plain, no tang for an arm to attach to, and no hole where something pulled free. If it had an arm, there should be some mechanical connection between it and the diaphragm, right?
 
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Old 04-07-18, 11:03 AM
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Okay, I went back to it, fished through the fuel pump opening with a wire, around the camshaft and whatnot, then looked through the drain plug hole, fished around in there with the wire, and nothing. I am sure that the arm is not in the crankcase. And I'm just as sure that if I ever did have the pump in the past I would not have put it back together without the arm in place, so it has to be vacuum or pulse actuated. That said, if you're willing to help me with one more thing I would appreciate it. I think that I may have inadvertently flipped the diaphragm while disassembling the pump. The diaphragm is obviously flexible, but has a preformed bubble in the center. Would the high side of the diaphragm typically go toward the crankcase or away from it? Or doesn't it matter?
 
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Old 04-07-18, 11:25 AM
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If it had an arm, there should be some mechanical connection between it and the diaphragm, right?
If you look at the IPL I looked at just today, I noticed it shows 3 different bodies. One of them it shows no arm...??? That is a reason for the spec# a 4 digit after the model# Then I can find the exact engine and even find out who it was spec'd for. This would also give you another avenue for info.
As far as the connection, not necessarily, it may only contact it on the top so crankcase pressure keep it up and the cam will force it down at the right time. As far as it being domed, NO, I don't believe it should be at all. If it is it is likely due to being stiff and worn. Been along time since I kitted on of those but I am pretty sure the diaphragm should be flexible just like a 2 stroke metering diaphragm, even if there is a spring.
 
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Old 04-07-18, 11:37 AM
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I know you said 4 digit, but my spec number is 28861H. The serial number, if that helps, is A07418. According to what I have found it was destined for Motomower, but I have not found anything more of relevance.
 
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Old 04-07-18, 11:54 AM
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OK, correct for motomower tractor.

Still the same diagram however this one has a part number for the pic with no arm and has (vacuum) in the descrip.
Part # B-231390-S
 
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Old 04-07-18, 11:56 AM
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BTW, that was a valid spec#
Now I am just talking to myself and rarely listen so I can be like most everyone else
 
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Old 04-07-18, 12:07 PM
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Aha! So good to know I'm not loosing my mind. As I said, or I was at least trying to say, what I have shows an arm, but it just wasn't adding up for me that it was in the crankcase or lost. I'm sure that I'm still up a creek if I need anything for it, but at least know now that it's vacuum operated, so I can go ahead and put it back together. Then sometime in the next week or so I can see if it still works. Thank you.
 
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Old 04-07-18, 01:23 PM
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  #13  
Old 04-09-18, 08:24 PM
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This thread made me recall a related issue with 4 cylinder 1960's Kohler L654 engine. It had mechanical fuel pump tag # (E) 503930292G

Pump cam follower arm hinged on a ~1/8” round steel rod. Rod was working out sideways from pump die cast frame. If it came out more pump arm would have ended up in crankcase.

Had never seen one of those rods work loose before.

Do not recall how is was fixed but is something to check periodically.
 

Last edited by doughess; 04-09-18 at 09:07 PM.
  #14  
Old 05-26-18, 11:00 AM
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I typically don't dredge up old threads, but figured this one was recent enough that it would be okay. So after concluding that this fuel pump was vacuum operated, and that I couldn't find a kit for it, I carefully disassembled, cleaned, and reassembled it. The discs and springs were tiny and the diaphragm appeared very fragile, but there was enough crud in it that I'm sure it would not have otherwise worked at all, so was worthwhile. Long story short, this morning was the first that I've had a chance to get back to it, so reinstalled the fuel pump, carburetor, gas tank, ran a set of jumper cables to it from the lawn mower, and had it running like a top within a matter of minutes. Not bad for having sat for 10-15 years, and now that I know she still runs fine I've officially labeled it a project, and am going to restore it for my wife to use for her gardening work. We looked at Gators a couple of years ago but were turned off by the prices, and, being a farm raised gal, I think she's actually more excited about this than she would have been one of those anyway. I imagine that I might have some questions when I get to the point of checking out the old starter/generator on it, but based on a couple of checks I made while it was running it appears to be putting out 12 volts through the regulator, so hopefully just a matter of blowing out the cobwebs, cleaning up the terminals and whatnot.
 
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