Acrylic epoxy on concrete problem


  #1  
Old 04-26-04, 10:40 PM
Ortem
Visiting Guest
Posts: n/a
Acrylic epoxy on concrete problem

I just spent a hell of a lot of work removing some old flaking paint from my basement floor in readiness to refinish it.

I stripped, washed, etched, and primed the surface as per instructions, but now I've put the first coat on the surface, it's drying with a crackle effect that I can't work out.

The only thing I can really think that could be to blame is the behr concrete bonding primer put down as per instructions before the top coat.

I even repaired some holes in the concrete after the etching process, and these areas too have the same crackling, ruling out acid residue (And I washed and mopped the HELL out of it after using the stuff too).
The concrete was bone dry before priming.

Any suggestions? I'm actualy feeling rather down about it.
Its taken weeks of stripping and preperation in my spare time to get it this far, and unless it just needs a second coat, it seems to have failed.
It took two gallons of klean-strip 15 minute stripper and thorough scrubbing and washing with each 3'X3' section before drying to get the old finish completely off...Days of work.

Could it possibly just be that it needs a second coat, or is this wishful thinking?
The concrete below is still showing, so a second coat would have otherwise been needed, but I'm also trying to not through good money after bad if theres just no way to get a decent finish.

Rob.
 
  #2  
Old 04-27-04, 05:38 AM
prowallguy's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: St. Louis MO
Posts: 2,597
Received 1 Vote on 1 Post
This is a tough one.
it's drying with a crackle effect
Is it actually cracking and flaking off, or just look real funny, like its separating on the surface?
The concrete was bone dry before priming.
How was this determined? Did you tape some plastic over it for 24 hours to see if any condensation appeared?
What was used to 'etch' the surface? Muriatic acid?
How did the primer coat look after drying? How long did it dry before applying finish coat? Why are you blaming the primer?
I'm sure it would need a second coat, but doubt that would fix the problem at hand. What exact brand/product was the finish coat?

Sorry for all the questions, but this is an odd scenario. Sounds like you followed the proper steps. I'm going to do a little research, maybe we can get this fixed.
 
  #3  
Old 04-27-04, 08:39 AM
Ortem
Visiting Guest
Posts: n/a
Theres no flaking, and it actualy appears well adhered, it's just seperating like an intended crackle finish.

>How was this determined? Did you tape some plastic over it for 24 hours to
>see if any condensation appeared?

Yes, it's a very dry basement in the first place, and the plastic was completely dry.

>What was used to 'etch' the surface? Muriatic acid?

Err, no it was a different product.
I'd have to check on it's actual name, but it came in a powder form and claimed to be as effective and less dangerous than muriatic.
They didn't actualy sell muriatic at that home depot.

>How did the primer coat look after drying? How long did it dry before
>applying finish coat? Why are you blaming the primer?

I'm tempted to blame the primer because it's the only link in the whole process that seems to be possible of causing a blame, and was directly under the top surface.
The primer did as intended (if you know of this product) and dried clear, darkening the surface slightly, and providing a dry tacky surface to paint to.
It said to leave for 8 hours prior to painting, but that would have worked out to 2am, so I left it overnight.

>I'm sure it would need a second coat, but doubt that would fix the problem
>at hand. What exact brand/product was the finish coat?

All products were Behr, except the acid etch. (which isn't listed on the home depot site...It's possible the jar is in the trash somewhere, so I'll see if I can find it)

>Sorry for all the questions, but this is an odd scenario. Sounds like you
>followed the proper steps. I'm going to do a little research, maybe we can
>get this fixed.

No, I appreciate the thought given, I really do.

Any ideas?

I should probably point out that it's not looking utterly dreadful...But certainly not as good as expected...It just resembles a slight chemical reaction all over.
I supose this is why I wondered if a second coat would nail it (which I'm tempted to try, just because removing the lot at this stage will I think actualy result in tears ).

I supose my only worry is that if it has seperated enough to cause a crackle effect, the adhesion might too be breached and the paint won't last.

I had another thought...I wondered if the concrete could have been too dry, if that's possible?
Even after a very good even coat of primner, the top coat seemed to suck into the stone so readily.
Could that cause a seperation in a paint like this?
I've no experience with water based epoxy at all and have no idea what it's made up of.

*Sigh*...I was warned to stick to two part epoxy, but could find no real reason to not use the acrylic.

Rob.
 
  #4  
Old 04-27-04, 09:19 AM
prowallguy's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: St. Louis MO
Posts: 2,597
Received 1 Vote on 1 Post
Well I hate to say but I got no clue. I went to the Behr website, and checked out the products. It all looked solid to me. The products you used mesh with each other, and you followed the procedure to the letter. The only weak link may be the acid etch, but it doesn't appear that way as the primer is bonded nicely.

I would suggest 2 things.

First, try a second coat on a small inconspicuous area, like a closet, laundry room, or corner. See if it does help.

Second, if that doesn't rectify it, make HD send a Behr rep out to look at it and diagnose the problem. You spent way too much time and $$$ that they should stand behind their products. As I said before though, the acid etch used wasn't recommended by the Behr website, and they might point at that and say its out of their hands. In that case, contact HD, or whoever recommended that product, and give them a real hard time.

Hope this all comes out in the end, hate to see all that hard work go to waste. Please keep me updated as to what happens, I always learn from my mistakes, so if I can learn from yours too, that would be great.
 
  #5  
Old 04-27-04, 07:48 PM
Ortem
Visiting Guest
Posts: n/a
Second coat is down

It's been drying 3 hours and is completely dry to the touch and yes, the crackle is still there in places, though nowhere near as pronounced as before.

This time it might be interesting to see if the crackle becomes more pronounced as a full cure sets in.

I wonder if a third coat might take care of this, but the can says to use no more than 2 coats (kind of makes me wonder if the primer is the holding agent here and the paint is just junk if theres a maximum number of top coats allowed).

It...Just looks like it's actualy the paint just seperating as it sits.
The sheer thickness of application seems to make me wonder what on earth can be attacking the paint to make it crack right through to the top, showing hairling cracks to the concrete below.
If it were seperating underneath and not adhering I could understand it, but this is actualy almost curdling just by sitting still which again, makes me wonder about the paint product itself.
I can't remember if I mentioned it before, but I also added a package of behr non skid additive to each can, which is intended for this paint, but I wonder if this is somehow responsible now too.

As nice a thought as it is, getting home depot to do anything other than sell you products is almost laughable.
The very same reason I'm shrugging and not knowing what the hell happened also succinctly lists the number of reasons they can tell me to get lost as it must have been my fault.
"You didn't strip it right, you didn't etch it right, you didn't wash it right" etc etc etc.
I think I just learnt a lesson about behr epoxy acrylic is all.

The limited range around here is what caused it's choice.
If I can find anywhere that will mix a colour match only in a two part epoxy, I'll finish the rest of the basement with that instead.
Epoxy paint pretty much BECOMES the floor and resurfaces it, and it's there for keeps.
This stuff seems to be more like paint paint...it's a nice colour but it's going to wear off, and judging from this crackle business, no doubt it'll just flake.

I don't have the time to wait to redo it.
I have a table saw needing testing (just purchased) and I can't spend another two weeks redoing everything.

Rob.
 
  #6  
Old 05-09-04, 03:10 PM
N
Member
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 142
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
I don't have any advice...just to tell you that you are not alone. We used the Behr Garage Floor paint on our concrete garage floor and the same thing happened to us. On top of the "antique cracked look" it also peeled up where our tires touch the floor, after 2 years of dealing with it we are finally in the process of trying to get up the old paint and redo it.
 
  #7  
Old 05-09-04, 05:07 PM
Ortem
Visiting Guest
Posts: n/a
I appreciate the heads up...

Wonder what on earth is causing it?

Perhaps I should have waited a month or something for it to dry out even more than it had.

Did you notice the paint peeling up where the crackling happened only, or were the hot tires to blame alone?

At least I don't have the problem of hot tires as it's a bsement for me, but I have noticed that the anti slip additive means that sweeping is useless.
The floor has to be mopped to get clean.

Rob.
 
  #8  
Old 05-09-04, 08:20 PM
N
Member
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 142
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
The floor pretty much looked like I purposley tried to get an antique crackling effect like you mentioned in your original post. I think it had to do with the first step of the process, because in areas where I didn't go crazy trying to do things right the paint is fine and not cracked. Where I spent the most time making sure the adhesion promoter product went down the paint cracked worse. When I awoke the next morning and saw the way the floor looked my stomach flipped. I did wait a week and then put down the second coat and at least that filled in the cracks so you saw the grey color instead of the concrete and it looked better. I'm a perfectionist so it really bothers me. To answer your question the paint itself only peeled up from the hot tires. Although the "crackling" seems to have gotten a little worse in the really high traffic areas. We took all the necessary steps to paint the floor and it is really upsetting that this happened and now we have to spend more time and more importantly more money to redo the floor.
 
  #9  
Old 05-09-04, 08:26 PM
Ortem
Visiting Guest
Posts: n/a
I notice on the can they actualy claim an annual reapplication in high traffic areas will be nescersary...

Which means it'll need it two or three times a year, lets face it.

Nyeh...I think it's just a crummy product.

Perhaps an overapplication of the concrete bonding primer could have caused it to somehow "curdle" while drying.

As I mentioned, a third coat would have got all the cracks, but they also don't allow a third coat...Live and learn, eh?

Rob.
 
  #10  
Old 05-09-04, 09:04 PM
prowallguy's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: St. Louis MO
Posts: 2,597
Received 1 Vote on 1 Post
Behr Paints must have made a heckuva deal with Home Depot to sell their products. The massive marketing machine now has millions of people using a highly inferior product. I've testdrove different Behr products maybe 15 times, all with lousy results. Just made a customer sign a waiver Fri. on my guarantee because he wants me to use Behr. I'm not looking forward to it. It seems everyday I log in to this site, and have consumers asking me how to rectify a problem they are having, and Behr is always part of the recipe for failure. Do a search for 'Behr', and see all the hits that come up. Its a darn shame.


I always recommend a concrete stain for new concrete, as it 'stains', and doesn't 'cover', hence no peeling, cracking, etc. Its what car dealers use on their showrooms.
 
  #11  
Old 05-10-04, 08:08 PM
Ortem
Visiting Guest
Posts: n/a
My floor was at least 100 years old, and in a 200 year old house, so possibly older.

It needed covering and covering very thickly

I don't think I ever mentioned that this didn't even cover very well. Some staining still shines through in direct sunlight.

Rob.
 
  #12  
Old 05-10-04, 09:11 PM
prowallguy's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: St. Louis MO
Posts: 2,597
Received 1 Vote on 1 Post
When I say 'new' concrete, I mean unpainted. The age won't make a difference. If its never been painted before, 2 coats of stain work well.
 
  #13  
Old 05-11-04, 06:44 AM
Ortem
Visiting Guest
Posts: n/a
You say stain, and I think of wood stain...A very thin dark semi-transparent covering.

Does concrete stain actualy cover up staining of the concrete itself?
unmovable rust spots, or corrosion, etc.

I stripped the old covering on my floor and washed and etched, but there was still an enormous amount of what looked to be some kind of chemical burning and staining.

Would stain have covered this?

Rob.
 
  #14  
Old 05-11-04, 06:44 PM
prowallguy's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: St. Louis MO
Posts: 2,597
Received 1 Vote on 1 Post
I would tend to say yes, without seeing what you have. If the stain used was dark, like gray or red, most likely. It is called stain but definitely thicker than a wood stain. If anything, the spots on the floor may have appeared darker, or slightly discolored as compared to the rest of the floor.

I have used it on many old houses we rehabbed to freshen up the basement, and have always been impressed with the finish. But man, does it smell strong, use GOOD ventilation.
 
 

Thread Tools
Search this Thread
 
Ask a Question
Question Title:
Description: