Interior Latex for Wood Trim?


  #1  
Old 01-19-05, 09:48 AM
deanm
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Interior Latex for Wood Trim?

Very recently, I had a professional painter prep, prime, paint, etc. most of the interior of my home. The paint on some of my wood doors is now peeling. I discovered that the painter used an interior latex paint on my wood doors and wood trim. I don't know what type of primer he used. I have been advised that he should have used an oil based paint on my doors and woodwork, and that the use of latex paint is the reason the paint is peeling. Should he have used an oil based paint on my wood doors and wood trim? If so, what needs to be done to correct the problem? Do I need to just fix the doors that are peeling now, or am I likely to see similar problems with my other wood doors and wood trim as time goes by?
 
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Old 01-19-05, 02:41 PM
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I have been advised that he should have used an oil based paint on my doors and woodwork
Not necessarily.
the use of latex paint is the reason the paint is peeling.
Probably not.
Should he have used an oil based paint on my wood doors and wood trim?
Again, not necessarily, product choice is determined by a lot of different factors.
what needs to be done to correct the problem
Have you contacted the painter, asked him to fix it? Was a contract in place with a warranty? To fix it, one needs to know why it failed.
Do I need to just fix the doors that are peeling now, or am I likely to see similar problems with my other wood doors and wood trim as time goes by?
This depends on what caused the failure in the first place.
I see nothing wrong with the fact that he used latex, but the really important part is what prep was done and especially what type of primer. Was the trim bare wood, or previously painted? If painted, what type of paint was it, oil or latex, or maybe stain?
 
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Old 01-19-05, 07:46 PM
deanm
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I called my painter and he will come over to look at the problem. We have a written agreement. It doesn't say "warranty", but it does say that he is responsible for using the appropriate primer and paint. The woodwork was previously painted, but I don't know with what type of paint. I know little about painting, which is why I hired a professional and relied on him to do a professional job. I just want a decent paint job. I don't want peeling paint or to have to deal with these types of problems. I paid my painter the amount he requested, about $3,000, plus the cost of all paint and supplies, for five rooms, including a bathroom, but no ceilings. I think that the price was on the high side, but I was willing to pay such amount because I was assurred of a high quality job. I don't know why the paint is peeling. As I said, I know little about painting, but I do expect that a professional painter should be able to paint my home without the paint peeling within a few months.
 
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Old 01-20-05, 04:12 AM
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Find out what type of prep/primer was used over what type of original paint, and that will explain the failure.
 
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Old 01-21-05, 04:34 AM
deanm
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Prowallguy, you have been very helpful. Thank you. I hope you'll answer a few of more questions. 1. I'm believe that the original paint on my woodwork was oil based. I'm not sure, however. How can I find out what type of paint was originally on my woodwork? I have some doors etc. that were not repainted, as well as the doors (three of which are peeling) etc. that were repainted. Should a professional painter be able to tell what type of paint was originally used by the look or feel, or is some testing required? 2. Regardless whether the original paint was latex or oil, is it possible to use an appropriate primer so that a latex paint could be used? Or, if the original paint was oil, must oil primer and paint be used thereafter (unless the old paint is removed)? 3. The receipts for the supplies that my painter purchased from Sherwin Williams show the only primer as "PRBLK IN LTX PR/SLR". I asume that these abbreviations mean it is an interior latex primer/sealer. If the original paint was latex (althought I don't think so), then I assume that use of a latex primer and paint to repaint would not cause a problem. However, if, as I believe, the original paint was oil based, then is the use of this latex primer and latex paint the likely cause of the problem? If so, how should the problem be fixed? Can the woodwork just be reprimed and painted with oil, or does the latex primer and paint first have to be removed?
 
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Old 01-21-05, 06:05 AM
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How can I find out what type of paint was originally on my woodwork?
Get some denatured alcohol, dip a rag in it, and rub at the paint. If it stays solid, and doesn't come off, then its oil or alkyd. If it softens, and some comes off on the rag, then its latex or acrylic. This will work 99% of the time.
Should a professional painter be able to tell what type of paint was originally used by the look or feel, or is some testing required?
They should, but even I have been stumped occasionally, and then the testing comes into play. Its very important to use the proper prep/materials for a successful job.
is it possible to use an appropriate primer so that a latex paint could be used?
Yes, an oil or alkyd will cover all the bases. When in doubt, I use oil because I know it will bond to everything. (well, almost everything )
if the original paint was oil, must oil primer and paint be used thereafter (unless the old paint is removed)?
The old paint doesn't need to be removed, but the oil primer is a must in my book. A latex finish product over the oil primer would be fine. Here is where the problem lies. The EPA has made drastic changes in the laws regarding VOC (volatile organic content) regulations for paint manufacturers. Their goal is to completely phase out all oil/alkyd/solvent products over a period of time. Many paint co.'s have been scrambling to come up with new water-based products to fill this gap. They tout many are able to bond to existing oil paint with the proper prep techniques, but I personally haven't found any new latex products that effectively replace the oil, or at least cover the characteristics that makes an oil desirable for a specific application (except the water-bourne trim paints from SW and BM). A lot of painters are going on what the paint co.s say, and are using these new products where an oil would usually be the standard application. Will these new products work, probably, but when using them, it comes down to making sure the prep techniques are spot-on, and done thoroughly and effectively.
the only primer as "PRBLK IN LTX PR/SLR"
SW ProBlock Interior Latex Primer/Sealer
If the original paint was latex (althought I don't think so), then I assume that use of a latex primer and paint to repaint would not cause a problem.
Exactly.
However, if, as I believe, the original paint was oil based, then is the use of this latex primer and latex paint the likely cause of the problem?
Not both, just the primer. And/or the prep before the primer. If the trim wasn't at least sanded to provide tooth for adhesion, then thats a major problem. With it peeling already, it shows the primer dried to a hard film coating before it ever bonded/adhered to the surface. And now, as the paint layer dries/cures on the primer, its literally yanking the primer off as it shrinks down tight.
If so, how should the problem be fixed?
Here is the tough part. To remove all the new paint at this point would be a nightmare to accomplish at best. Messy, costly (time-wise), and just plain hard to do. If you think you can talk the painter into doing this, then great. But its doubtful unless he/she really cares about their reputation, or if the contract gave any kind of warranty. Best fix IMO would be to scrape off as much of the new primer/paint as possible, and sand/repair uneven areas. Then prime them with a slow-drying heavy-bodied long oil. An example of this type product would be THIS. Very smelly, and hard to work with, but it will lock down the surface so hopefully the remaining latex products won't fail down the road sometime. But this isn't a gurantee it won't fail, it just the best fix IMO. Once a bad product combo is put on, its tough to go back. My company is actively trying to change our product spec's, when painting anything thats in existing oil, we prime with an oil and paint with a latex effectively changing the paint 'system' from oil to latex, ensuring the next painter down the road is ready to go with the products being offered at that time.

Good luck, hope that helps some.
 
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Old 01-21-05, 07:33 PM
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Prowallguy,

I was talking to my BM salesman who is usually very knowledgeable and he told me that if you want to paint latex over existing oil, you can use the 100% acrylic fresh start product. I don't think this is accurate but I'd like to hear it from you.


I have been using the enamel underbody fresh start product that you mentioned above. For high end oil painting this product is unbeatable. It's goes on real thick and is very sandable. I find that you have to sand it to get a good finish coat but once you get it sanded to the point where it feels like a baby's you know what the finish oil coat goes on like glass. It's better to wait several days to do heavy sanding though especially in cold weather. I have "broken through" the paint on occasion if I didn't wait at least 2 days.

It's hard to believe that latex over properly prepped oil based paint would peel that much and that fast. I once did a test where I painted over some oil with latex on a piece of scrap wood and I found that I could not peel it off with my fingernail in most cases. Of course I'm not suggesting that this should be done it was just to satisfy my curiosity (I usually have some errant oil drips here and there on the wall which I may forget to hit with oil primer).
 
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Old 01-21-05, 10:58 PM
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I have been told this by many reps too, but I guess that as long as the product/system I am most comfortable with is still available, I might as well use it until it is no longer available, or they have modified it so much that its performance is shot. B.M. alkyd Satin Impervo is a good example of an excellent product, that is only a shadow of its former self since they have tinkered with the formulation over the past 5 years. In fact, almost all oils I have used have changed in some way or another recently. But I use what I use for successful jobs/profits.

The 217 I let dry at least 2 days, if not more depending on the conditions. It does sand nicely, but only after fully dry. I have had to stop and delay a couple jobs in the past due to the stuff just not drying.

And yeah, the peeling doors/trim piques my curiousity too, but it could be due to several factors. A very shiny, hard as glass, oil enamel with zero prep, add to that maybe a house with no humidifier, cold outside, very dry heat blowing in the house, then wham, the paint cracks and basically shears off because it dried so fast it never had a chance to grab onto anything. Thats one of many reasons, remember, everything depends on everything else.
 
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Old 02-01-05, 07:29 PM
Certaguy
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sounds like latex on oil to me
unfortunatly he didnt test before he bought the paint

even I learned that lesson years ago the hard way,luckily it was an empty house and no one ever complained

if this is the case,let me know how you solved the peeling
I didnt think you could fix the problem without a full stripping
 
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Old 02-02-05, 08:22 PM
deanm
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My painter told me that the original paint on my woodwork was oil, and that he did not prime (and he did not sand or otherwise prep) the woodwork before he painted with latex. My written agreement, however, stated that he was to prep and prime the woodwork before painting. He offered to repaint the peeling doors (but not any of the other doors or woodwork that is not yet peeling) with an oil paint. I asked him if it was okay to just repaint with oil over the latex, and he said it would be fine. He also said that he could not first sand the doors because it is not possible to sand latex since it will just gum up. (The other woodwork looks okay, so far, except that some places are still a little tacky, even after over three months. My painter said that that was just the way latex is; i.e. it isn't his fault.) Help! I need advice! What should I do?
 
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Old 02-02-05, 08:34 PM
deanm
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Some more information: The original woodwork was not very shiny, it was pretty flat. My home was painted in the fall, when the weather was very mild, not hot or cold nor especially humid or dry. My air conditioner was running, but it wasn't unusually hot outside, just mildly warm.
 
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Old 02-03-05, 04:31 AM
Certaguy
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im slightly confused ....

he used 2 paints?


Ultimatly Oil should have been used - Oil on Oil is a must
Oil on latex is OK too
Latex on Oil is a no-no

If you have peeling latex,the most you can do is sand it down to the best of his/your ability and then Oil Prime to help seal it all in
after its sealed then paint with oil paint - other than stripping to bare wood that is all one can do

I am surprised that the other trim is not peeling - I would try to scratch it off with your fingler nail to see how much its actually sticking I would summize that if the doors are peeling so is the other trim he painted

What sometimes happens is a home is built/painted with different products throughout the home - I have seen builders use leftover trim paints and mix up the trim some latex some oil - so its possible he did a test on a latex spot and figured the rest of the house was also in latex - who wouldent

Its tough for you at this point to find who was at fault
if the house was painted with several different trim paints before he got there
its not his fault
but if you house was all Oil and he went over it with latex because he didnt test its his fault - It happens too often


when in doubt I always use oil : see above

good luck
 
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Old 02-03-05, 06:56 AM
deanm
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My home is a manufactured home and was built about 10 or 15 years ago. The woodwork had not been painted since my home was built. I believe that all the woodwork was originally painted with oil. Since my home is a manufactured home, I doubt that the manufacturer used more than one kind of paint on my woodwork when the house was built. My painter told me that he knew, prior to starting to paint my home, that my woodowrk was originally painted with oil. Last fall, he painted my woodwork with a latex paint. He did not prime or prep my woodwork before he painted with the latex, even though our written agreement stated that he was to prep and prime the woodwork. I can scrape some paint off my woodwork with my fingernail. His "solution" is to repaint my peeling doors with an oil paint, without any prep or primer.
 
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Old 02-03-05, 12:44 PM
Certaguy
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well its worth a shot - let him paint a door with oil and see if it cures the problem
the object is to seal the doors surface
 
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Old 02-03-05, 01:44 PM
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I can scrape some paint off my woodwork with my fingernail. His "solution" is to repaint my peeling doors with an oil paint, without any prep or primer.
That is a crappy solution, but I reckon it beats stripping all the paint off and starting over. As Certaguy said, let him do one, and see how it comes out. And don't let this painter charge you any more to fix something he screwed up. Plus IMO, he should be refunding $$$ because he skipped 2 steps you paid for per the contract.
 
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Old 02-04-05, 12:53 PM
gybe-it
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I'm no painter but....

I am no painter, but if I had a contract that said that something was to be SANDED and PRIMED and PAINTED, and someone only painted than I want to know where the other 3/4 of my money is. He did not fufill his contract, only a third of it. And one other note, you said you had a reciept for materials. On that list was the primer that was all abreviations. Why did that not go on the trim, you paid for it, and the labor, but he did not do it. There is a large peice of this puzzel missing.
 
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Old 02-04-05, 02:22 PM
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And one other note, you said you had a reciept for materials. On that list was the primer that was all abreviations. Why did that not go on the trim, you paid for it, and the labor, but he did not do it. There is a large peice of this puzzel missing.
Great catch, that snuck right by me. I think that painter would have a black eye if he tried to pull that around here. And he would be refunding a lot of $$$.
 
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Old 02-05-05, 05:31 AM
deanm
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My painter told me that he primed my walls, but not my woodwork. I assume that he did as he told me. (I was not at home when my painter painted my home.) I'm a little concerned, however, because in certain light I can still see a little of the old wall covering through the new primer and paint. The original walls had a light colored covering that looked like patterned wall paper (white with small pastel flower pattern), but I think the covering was actually a vinyl or some other material. My new paint is an off white. I'm suprised that primer and one coat of paint was not sufficient to completely hide the old wall covering. Also, I've noticed this problem only in a bathroom and my home office, not the living room or dining room. I'm a little concerned that my painter may have watered down my paint when he painted my bathroom and office, which could be the reason I see a problem in those rooms. My painter had about a quarter of a gallon of paint remaining when he finished. I needed to touch up a couple of small spots, and I used some of the remaining paint. It was extremely thin, almost like water. I purchased a new gallon of the same paint, and it is much thicker. Would primer and one coat of paint usually be sufficient to completetly cover my old wall covering?
 

Last edited by deanm; 02-05-05 at 05:46 AM.
 

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