Oil or latex on Cabinets?


  #1  
Old 09-23-00, 10:40 AM
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I am going to paint my kitchen cabinets a paprika red paint with dark antiquing on top. I am going to use Kilz oil based primer, but I am not sure if I should use oil or latex paint. From what I've read, the oil is more durable(less chipping) and brush strokes even out better, but I like the ease of using a latex paint. If I use latex, should I top coat with a urethane or something for protection? What tool(s)should I use to apply paint and/or urethane? Brush, roller, foam roller? I'd like a matte or light satin finish though; nothing real shiny. Thank you in advance for your help.

 
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Old 09-23-00, 12:35 PM
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hi
oil paint over oil primer, latex will peel off oil. i learned that the hard way.
have you thougth of melemine (sp?) paint. i have used it on 2 dresser sets (one in a childs room) and on a bookcase turned toy shelf that sees alot of use and no chips. it can be tinted to any shade.
 
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Old 10-01-00, 05:01 PM
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quote:<HR>Originally posted by Becky9293:
I am going to paint my kitchen cabinets a paprika red paint with dark antiquing on top. I am going to use Kilz oil based primer, but I am not sure if I should use oil or latex paint. From what I've read, the oil is more durable(less chipping) and brush strokes even out better, but I like the ease of using a latex paint. If I use latex, should I top coat with a urethane or something for protection? What tool(s)should I use to apply paint and/or urethane? Brush, roller, foam roller? I'd like a matte or light satin finish though; nothing real shiny. Thank you in advance for your help.

<HR>


 
  #4  
Old 10-01-00, 05:06 PM
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quote:<HR>Originally posted by Becky9293:
I am going to paint my kitchen cabinets a paprika red paint with dark antiquing on top. I am going to use Kilz oil based primer, but I am not sure if I should use oil or latex paint. From what I've read, the oil is more durable(less chipping) and brush strokes even out better, but I like the ease of using a latex paint. If I use latex, should I top coat with a urethane or something for protection? What tool(s)should I use to apply paint and/or urethane? Brush, roller, foam roller? I'd like a matte or light satin finish though; nothing real shiny. Thank you in advance for your help.

<HR>


You sound like you are working on a similar project. I was curious about the antiquing. I am about to experiment myself with an antiquing technique. What is the dark antiquing you are refering to? If you have a moment , I would love to know what you are doing. I haven't found the exact steps anywhere to antiquing cabinets. Good luck to you.
 
  #5  
Old 10-01-00, 09:31 PM
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I think I agree with Helpful, but let me explain...

If you're painting the outside of your cabinets, and we're talking about surfaces that you're NOT going to be using as shelves, then any paint you like is appropriate.

KILZ sealer is NOT an oil based primer, and even if it was, you can paint over oil based primer with latex paint. All primers, regardless of whether they're oil or water based dry to a rough enough finish that any paint, regardless of whether it's oil based or water based, will stick to. It is the SMOOTHNESS of oil based PAINTS that makes it difficult for latex paints to stick to them. However, the acrylics used in modern latex paints stick to the smooth surface of oil based paints much better than the latex paints of a few decades ago. You really shouldn't paint directly over an oil based paint with an acrylic, but it's much less of a problem now than it was years ago.

KILZ sealer is a "solvent based white pigmented shellac". "Shell"-"Lac" is a yellow or orange resin made from the shell-like scales of the Lac beetle and was first produced in India about 1600 AD. I don't know if they still make it from bugs anymore. A solvent based white pigmented shellac is a shellac that's been tinted white and dries quickly because solvents evaporate very quickly. If you ever use KILZ sealer, you'll know it evaporates so quickly that it's hard to get a decent paint job with a brush.

In spite of how far acrylic paints have come over the past two decades, oil based paints still offer the hardest surface for a shelf. HOWEVER, you can have an even harder surface by adding urethane to that oil based paint. Helpful mentioned melamine in the previous post. Benjamin Moore has a paint they call "Melamine" (base 303-90) which is their oil based "enamel" fortified with urethane to make it even harder. To my knowledge, it's the hardest drying paint Benjamin Moore makes, and it's the only paint I've been able to find that's hard enough to be used on shelves.

I use BM Melamine tinted an off white colour called "Cathay" on the insides of all my kitchen cupboards and cabinets. I paint it on with a 3" paint roller, then go back the next day and touch up the corners the roller couldn't get into with a brush.

Melamine paint stains, but I don't think it stains any more than any other oil based paint. Because of it's high gloss, it's just plain lousy at hiding. I found that out the hard way when it took 8 coats of Benjamin Moore Melamine to hide the red oxide primer on the bottom of a medicine cabinet. Paint with KILZ sealer first as a hard primer to hide any underlying colour, then with the Melamine. Use a 3 inch roller for both if you want decent looking shelves.
 
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Old 10-05-00, 07:06 PM
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Thanks to all of you for your helpful advice. Nestor, the information you offer is most helpful and appreciated. My project is coming along. I've decided to use latex enamel. I am only painting the outside part of the cabinets. Thanks again.
 
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Old 10-06-00, 03:47 AM
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Nestor, You have me curious about your KILZ description. So I can be sure we are on the same page I am refering to the KILZ Original formula that sells for about $12.00 a gallon. I have always been under the impression that a true shellac based material would be cleaned up and thinned with alcohol unlike KILZ which is done with mineral spirits. Does the KILZ have shellac suspended in a base that allows clean up and thinning with mineral spirits?
 
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Old 10-06-00, 05:14 PM
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Nestor,First of all I am shocked that you name a brand name paint that you like, let alone Benjamin Moore! Benjamin Moore is the best on the market. I'm glad to see we might be on the same page(?). Now for the tough question..what the heck is Melamine? That may not be a product available in the USA. I don't want to be cruel but your l o n g explainations of some products and their uses leave a lot of us baffled.
 
  #9  
Old 10-06-00, 05:45 PM
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Kilz is not a shellac, it is an oil based primer, except for the water based versions. It was origanally made to take the place of shellac primers.

Shellac, aside of synthetics, is made from the ground shells of the lac insect, but it is the protective shell made by the secretions of the lac insect, the shell is kinda like a cocoon.
 
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Old 10-07-00, 02:41 PM
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JDX, melemine is a type of plastic resin, like what you see on those wire closet organizers in bigger hardware stores, melemine paint is usually an alkyde paint with melemine resin. I dont believe I have ever used it so I can't comment on its performance.
 
  #11  
Old 10-07-00, 04:22 PM
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Mikejmerritt:

From what I understand, KILZ is shellac mixed with white pigment in a mineral spirits base. I'm looking at a gallon of KILZ right now, and it doesn't have an actual product description anywhere, just a lot of propoganda. I always clean it off brushes with mineral spirits, so I would also use paint thinner to thin it, too. I think the lion's share of any alchohol you added to thin it would evaporate out of the mix as soon as you started spreading it, and you'd be basically back to what you started with fairly quickly. I've never thinned it, but I would use paint thinner to thin it if I did. After I leave here, I'm going to do a web search for KILZ and see if I can find a product description.

JDX:
"Melamine" is actually plastic coated particle board meant to be used for shelves. However, just as with the term "enamel" (found only in teeth), if a paint company wants an adjective to describe their paint, they'll use what's available. Benjamin Moore's 303-90 base is a high gloss oil based paint with urethane added to it to make it dry to a harder, more scuff resistant finish. Because it's more scuff resistant and hard enough to be used to paint shelves, the called it "Melamine".
As for my long posts, I try to compensate for quality with quantity. (smirk)

Chipfo:
KILZ isn't an oil based primer... or it's not made out of the same stuff as oil based primers anyway. KILZ will be dry to the touch in 10 minutes and you can recoat it in 60. I don't know of any oil based primers that will dry like that.
Also, oil is more viscous than solvent. I expect I'm not the only one in here that's noticed that the solvent you use to clean KILZ out of a brush will settle out in 3 or 4 days whereas normal oil based paints and primers take weeks.

I'm going to see if I can find a product description for KILZ on the net. I'll let you know what I find, if anything.
 
  #12  
Old 10-07-00, 05:00 PM
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I stand corrected. KILZ isn't shellac, it IS an oil based primer. The reason why it dries so fast is that the liquids that evaporate as it dries consist largely of naptha (which evaporates very quickly).

A MSDS of KILZ is available at http://www.kilz.com/msds_kilz.html

It says KILZ is a 64% solids ALKYD resin primer. The solids are 15 to 25% alkyd resin, 5 to 15% Titanium Dioxide and 15 to 30% clay extenders (Magnesium Silicate).

The liquid in it that evaporates is 15% mineral spirits and 21% naptha. I guess it's that naptha in it that makes it dry so fast.

I don't know much about naptha, but I think it's used as camping fuel. I guess you could use either mineral spirits or naptha to thin it, but the former would lengthen it's drying time and the latter would shorten it.

I don't know what the difference is between "mineral spirits", "solvent", "paint thinner" and "varsol". I think they all contain the same chemicals, but in different proportions. I've never run into problems substituting any one of them whenever any other one of them was called for.
 
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Old 10-07-00, 06:03 PM
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Naptha IS used for camping fuel, I have a Coleman Lantern and stove and Coleman fuel is purified naptha, I tried regular naptha once and it doesn't hardly work in them. Naptha is also used in auto shops for cleaning parts.

Mineral spirits and paint thinner are the same, if you buy a container of "Paint thinner" it will say mineral spirits on it. I am not sure about varsol but I think it is a dry cleaning fluid, and they are all solvents, including acetone, lacquer thinner, tolulene, etc. A solvent is basically a liquid than disolves or thins, water is a solvet for sugar.

 
  #14  
Old 10-07-00, 08:14 PM
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Nestor, I never use mineral spirits to clean my brushes. It doesn't clean as well as paint thinner. The same goes for using a solvent. Stick with paint thinner. I've never had luck using solvent to clean brushes. Have you ever used denatured alcohol in place of paint thinner?
 
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Old 10-08-00, 08:48 AM
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We used varsol to clean the floors at a shop I worked in many years ago. If memory serves me it is a very impure form of kerosene.....Mike
 
 

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