Big debate: "Pure Acrylic vs. Acrylic Latex"

Reply

  #1  
Old 07-16-05, 06:38 AM
M
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Media, PA
Posts: 175
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Big debate: "Pure Acrylic vs. Acrylic Latex"

The labelling of the paints today has been confusing IMHO, with the biggest issue surrounding the paints known as "acrylics".
The paint manager at our local Home Depot got into a debate about their paints and I told him he didn't have a line of pure acrylic resin paints and he argued that their Behr Premium Plus paints actually were pure acrylic. However, I told him the label said "Acrylic Latex". He then told me this was misleading and that no vinyl or rubber were used any longer in the formulation of these paints.
A typical pure acrylic paint I use is:
http://www.gliddenpro.com/NUSGLP/Pro...ets/GL3210.pdf and it is a fabulous primer. But, like I said, it appears to be the only one available at the Home Depot...and it's not a finish coat product !
I've also used the Olympic Premium gloss trim paint available at Lowe's that has a label of "100% acrylic duralife" on it. NO LATEX IS ON THE LABEL.

Can some expert clear this up ? Am I right regarding the fact there IS a different between 100% pure acrylic vs. acrylic latex formulations ? Am I also correct in noting the Home Depot carries no pure acrylic finish paint ?
 
Sponsored Links
  #2  
Old 07-16-05, 07:38 AM
C
Member
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Taylors, SC
Posts: 9,483
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
There is a difference between 100% acrylic and acrylic latex paints.
 
  #3  
Old 07-17-05, 06:04 PM
M
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Media, PA
Posts: 175
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Yes, But How Do I Tell The Difference ????

Paint labels indicate: "100% Acrylic" vs. "Pure acrylic" vs. "100% Acrylic Latex".
We now need PAINT LABELLING like we got the government to standardize FOOD LABELLING !!!
 
  #4  
Old 07-17-05, 07:14 PM
S
Member
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Cape Cod
Posts: 4,320
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by marksimms
The paint manager at our local Home Depot...
Was probably selling microwaves at Best Buy 2 months ago
Go to your local paint shop
Get real paint
Get real info
 
  #5  
Old 07-17-05, 07:39 PM
T
Member
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 15,834
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
100% acrylic latex primers and paints are clearly more effective than alkyd oil-based paints in all critical areas of product performance: wood protection, long-term eye appeal, stability, and reduced maintenance.

Top-quality interior acrylic latex semi-gloss paint typically contains higher volume solids (binder and pigment), which provide many benefits when compared to ordinary latex semi-gloss paints. As a result of its higher solids content, top-quality interior acrylic latex semi-gloss paint dries to a thicker film than ordinary latex semi-gloss paint, resulting in better hiding and durability. The acrylic binder used in top-quality interior latex semi-gloss paint is designed to have adhesion to a wider variety of surfaces when compared to ordinary paint.

Paint labels which tout 100% acrylic tend to use a latex-based system. If you want to research further, then contact the customer service numbers of paint manufacturers. What they mean when they tout 100% acrylic is that the binders in the paint are 100% latex.

If shopping around, I am always in favor of supporting small, local businesses. A local paint shop should bend over backwards to make you happy. Hopefully, you will meet up with a seasoned paint expert. If in doubt about any products, contact the manufacturer direct by calling the customer service number on the label.
 
  #6  
Old 07-18-05, 05:12 AM
prowallguy's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: St. Louis MO
Posts: 2,597
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by slickshift
Was probably selling microwaves at Best Buy 2 months ago
Go to your local paint shop
Get real paint
Get real info
Word.
 
  #7  
Old 07-18-05, 06:54 AM
M
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Media, PA
Posts: 175
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
thanks for this detailed explanation...

but again, how to tell the difference between a GOOD acrylic or 100% acrylic latex vs. a "bad" one ?
One thing I've observed:
Pure Acrylic paints do not form a "skin" on the surface when inside the paint can EVEN when the lid is not tight.
Cheaper latex paints QUICKLY form a rubbery "skin".

Anyone else observe this ? Can this be used as a way of distinguishing them ?
 
  #8  
Old 07-18-05, 11:34 AM
A
Member
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Ca
Posts: 748
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Hopefully not adding to the confusion but the way I understand it is that like many other things it's a tradeoff -

The 100% acrylic has better flow characteristics and hold out but a very low film build per application. You see 100% acrylic used for high end cabinetry where multiple coats are sprayed. I also recently noticed that Blue Pearl paints are all 100% acrylic (speciality paint) and artists paints tend to be 100% acrylic since they need a lot of hold out.

Latex/acrylic has poor flow characteristics and hold out but very, very good film build for one coat coverage and max protection.

The "waterbourne" products seem to have some of the best properties of both extremes so in the end it's whatever gets you the results you are after.
 
  #9  
Old 07-18-05, 04:53 PM
M
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Media, PA
Posts: 175
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
We're making some progress...but..

I have yet to receive a response directly from the Olympic (PPG Paints) and Behr Paint technical assistance on the matter. This should be interesting.

One issue omitted in the prior post: which paint (100% acrylic resin vs. 100% acrylic latex) has the most durable finish ?
My bet would be: the 100% acrylic resin. Latex "scuffs" much easier and has low abrasion resistance.

Also, another issue surfaced: how does one SPRAY acrylic paints on furniture ? Even HVLP spray equipment requires a fairly LOW viscosity....which would indicate a THINNER is required. I tried water, and all you get is runs. I tried the next best thing: denatured alcohol, but it does not "work" properly to thin the acrylic.
 
  #10  
Old 07-21-05, 08:10 AM
M
Member
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 10
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Porter Paint 100% Acrylic Exterior Paint

I'm having trouble with the coverage of the above paint and am being told that it is because of the resins. They claim that the resins are causing "flashing" which in turn makes the paint job look terrible.

I'll be interested in seeing what you hear from Olympic.

Thanks!!!!
 
  #11  
Old 07-21-05, 10:00 AM
A
Member
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Ca
Posts: 748
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
There was an article in a recent issue of fine woodworking on painting furniture. Besides all of the "obvious" meticulous prep work, the author recommended a high quality latex paint thinned with floetrol for brushing and only brushing a surface when it's turned horizontal or if spraying an acrylic paint made for spraying (like Target or Campbell). Spraying latex or oil with HVLP is a balancing act between thinning and the correct tip size. A 4-stage HVLP unit is a must.

Actually I think using the waterbourne products for brushing would be a no brainer since it behaves much like oil paint as long as you are OK with a satin finish. Just practice first.

BTW, quite a while back I searched the web for words like "paint" and "chemistry" and you should get some info.

I'm looking at a basic book I have on paint and they have drawing that shows the components of water based paint -

Solvent - water of course
Binder - acrylic or combination of vinyl and acrylic (I think the term latex has little actual meaning in modern paints except that usually it refers the latter).
Pigment - Give color. The higher the quality of paint the better pigments and more of them.
Additives - use to control application qualities.
 

Last edited by AlexH; 07-21-05 at 10:30 AM.
  #12  
Old 07-21-05, 04:40 PM
J
Member
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 202
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Spraying latex

You can use an airless pump to sray a latex finish. You need to use a fine finish tip, a 210 ff is good size, and maybe a spot of floetrol. With this setup your semi gloss and satin will go on very nicely. House painters spray doors and trim this way.

If you have an HVLP setup use the water bourne pigmented lacquers like Target or Fuhr. Other than, maybe, gloss latex paint the stuff just takes too much fiddling and you'll need the big turbine or a good size compressor.
 
  #13  
Old 07-22-05, 10:27 AM
M
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Media, PA
Posts: 175
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
response from Behr below

Behr Tech Support: Thank you for your reply.

Our Premium Plus paints are 100% acrylic. This means the acrylic resin used in the product has not been cut or diluted in any way. The resin itself is 100% acrylic but it is still a latex product in that it is a water clean up. Acrylic means that a product is waterbased. The Olympic product you mentioned sounds like it is also 100% acrylic. It, too, is considered a latex product. In this instance these products are equal in that they are each 100% acrylic materials.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am not confident at all with their tech support's knowledge. I also discussed this with PPG's tech support and they indicated that any mention of Latex indicates a paint that is less durable than a paint based on 100% acrylic resin. Their Duralife Acrylic contains NO vinyl or Latex or any cheap additives. However, that doesn't mean Olympic's Premium 100% acrylic Duralife paint is the best suited paint for ALL APPLICATIONS. Where flexibility and "breathability" is required, it probably IS NOT THE BEST. However, for something like book shelves, and other abrasion resistant applications, it's great. In fact, the "book shelf" test is classic in that most acrylic latex paints will show "marks" over time as books are pulled from the shelf. PPG is in the process of rolling-out a new website. I implored them to place technical bulletins and paint application guidelines on that site.

I am sticking with my observation that if a paint lid allows some air into the can and the surface DOES NOT harden or form a scum at all, the paint in the can is 100% Pure Acrylic. Otherwise it is a cheaper latex acrylic or of course an alyld (oil based) enamel which is detected simply by "odor".

As far as spraying pure acrylics via HVLP.....I'm still experimenting with solvents. Lacquer thinner works.....sort-of. It forms an emulsion and so the mixture must stay agitated during the spray process...a big pain.
Next up: Xylene, and then Methyl-Ethyl Ketone.
 
  #14  
Old 07-22-05, 02:11 PM
A
Member
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Ca
Posts: 748
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Mark,

Good explanation - however I wouldn't agree with the tech that addition of vinyl additives makes the paint cheaper - it's just optimizing for different properties.

You're scaring me regarding the use of solvents to thin water based paints. The guys over at Homesteadfinishing are experts at spraying paints, even latex, with HVLP. I assume you're aware of the hazards involved with HVLP and solvents?
 
  #15  
Old 07-26-05, 03:56 PM
N
Member
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 109
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by twelvepole
100% acrylic latex primers and paints are clearly more effective than alkyd oil-based paints in all critical areas of product performance: wood protection, long-term eye appeal, stability, and reduced maintenance.
I respectfully disagree with you. Give me a latex primer that will hold rust back... or hold back bad water stains/nictotine stains. An oil based primer on nicely cured wood is much better than applying a latex primer. In fact, I have seen examples where if you prime some rusty/rust treated metal with oil, and put a latex on top, it will pull the rust through, unlike a top coat of oil. And durability wise, oil beats latex hands down. Hand rails in high high traffic areas, that latex will be gone in no time. But, to be honest, me and you both know oil is on it's last leg, the government is hacking away at it.

Originally Posted by twelvepole
If shopping around, I am always in favor of supporting small, local businesses. A local paint shop should bend over backwards to make you happy. Hopefully, you will meet up with a seasoned paint expert. If in doubt about any products, contact the manufacturer direct by calling the customer service number on the label.
Thank you, we are always competing with home depot, lowes, sherwin williams... but you are exactly right, we bend over backwards to help our customers out, and once they walk in the door, they generally will never go to another paint store.
 
  #16  
Old 07-26-05, 07:16 PM
M
Member
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 10
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Adding some Paint to the big debate

The Olympic Premium 100% Acrylic duralife Forumla has been mentioned several times and lo and behold I just happen to have a can of it here that I am using to paint my front door (nothing will stick to the door). Any way one thing I noticed on the can is that it says "Available Exclusively at Lowe's" which might explain why it is not on the PPG website.

The other thing I noticed and I would like for someone to explain this to me is that in addition to saying Olympic Premium 100% Acrylic duralife Formula it says "Exterior Latex Flat" which from what I have been reading is a contradiction or maybe I just don't understand all of this lingo.

Thanks!!!
 
  #17  
Old 07-28-05, 01:35 PM
prowallguy's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: St. Louis MO
Posts: 2,597
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by noleguy33
I respectfully disagree with you. Give me a latex primer that will hold rust back... or hold back bad water stains/nictotine stains. An oil based primer on nicely cured wood is much better than applying a latex primer. In fact, I have seen examples where if you prime some rusty/rust treated metal with oil, and put a latex on top, it will pull the rust through, unlike a top coat of oil. And durability wise, oil beats latex hands down. Hand rails in high high traffic areas, that latex will be gone in no time. But, to be honest, me and you both know oil is on it's last leg, the government is hacking away at it.



Thank you, we are always competing with home depot, lowes, sherwin williams... but you are exactly right, we bend over backwards to help our customers out, and once they walk in the door, they generally will never go to another paint store.
Ditto to all of the above.
 
Reply
Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
 
Ask a Question
Question Title:
Description: