Stains in Ceiling - Painting over.....

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Old 05-27-06, 12:43 PM
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Stains in Ceiling - Painting over.....

I have those white plaster ceilings (70s house) and over the years, they have discoloured a bit.........Just the odd stain here and there, but also they are yellowish all around the perimeter.

Someone suggested to me that I use Kilz (might just be a Canadian brand - not sure) to paint the perimeter for about the first 6 inches or so, and then (using a long-handled roller) use regular ceiling paint to paint the rest of the ceiling.

Kilz is a primer that apparently covers up stains. I would be buying the water based kilz (not the oil).

What I'm wondering is - Wouldn't regular ceiling paint work almost as well? Regular paint seems to hide stains fairly well, unless it's a really bad one...

Also - what sense would it make to do the edges with Kilz and the rest of the ceilings with regular ceiling paint? Why not just use the Kilz latex primer (which is white) to do the whole ceiling then? I believe the Kilz and the ceiling paint are similar in price.

Why would it be necessary to paint over white primer anyhow?

Just trying to make it easier for me.

Any suggestions?

Thanks.
 
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Old 05-27-06, 04:58 PM
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Kilz isn't just a local brand. Primers need to be top coated as they are not formulated for wear/exposure.

A lot depends on why the ceilings are discolored. Water stains require priming with a solvent based primer [oil kilz is one] Latex primers only hide mild stains and may not be sufficent to hide water marks.

If the dicoloration is just dirt, good paint will cover and hide it. If it is smoke or suet, paint might cover but primer is recomended. Water stains and other hard to cover stains need solvent primer to adequetley seal the stain.

When spot priming ceilings the finish coat of latex will dry slowwer over the sealed areas and will appear to not match but should blend in completetly once there has been enough time for it to dry.
 
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Old 05-27-06, 10:32 PM
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Thank you for your reply. Something I forgot to mention was that my ceilings are that yucky white plastery textured stuff that they probably put in most 70's houses.....

At Home Depot tonight, I asked the guy in the paint dept. a few questions......but with me knowing so little, I wasn't sure that he knew what he was talking about either.......He was probably only 15 or so...

He said - You must use oil based primer or paint on textured ceilings, because if you use water base, the texture goes all mushy and will come off. He said I could use Kilz (oil based primer), but that I would then have to do a top coat of ceiling paint, and that it could be a water base.

He said that I could not use the Kilz 2 primer (which is water based) on texture.

He said that I could use Behr brand ceiling paint though and that it would work okay, even on texture, even though the Behr brand was water based. That just didn't make sense to me.

So I left the store with nothing, and was more confused than when I went in.

Do I have to use oil?

If I tried to get away with just using the primer (either oil or latex) and didn't put a coat of reg. paint over it, how long might it look okay for? A few years or so?

The ceilings don't have any huge, horrible stains but I am hoping to put my house on the market this summer, and am thinking the place will look much newer and brighter if I paint the ceilings. There aren't any water-type stains - just a general discoloration/yellowing which I am thinking was probably caused by people smoking for a few years. However, the perimeter (the first couple inches all around) seems to be more discolored than the middle of the ceiling. Not sure why that would be.....

I'm thinking that maybe just a latex ceiling paint would suffice. However, how long would it be before the discoloration came through again?

Do you think I can use a water-based ceiling latex paint? or does it have to be oil-based? yuck..... I can't imagine painting overhead like that with an oil-based paint....

Thanks again.
 
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Old 05-28-06, 12:01 AM
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Here are my unprofessional experiences

- Where there are just some water, beer or other stains on a ceiling, I have used an oil "ceiling" paint with great results.
- Where there is smoke, I have used just an oil "ceiling" paint, and results were generally very good but I have had an occasional bleed problem but nothing serious.
- Where there is smoke, I have put on kilz, then oil ceiling paint. No problem.
- Best result I have ever had was in my own house. I oil painted, then went over it with latex. Looked fantastic.
- All the ceilings I have done are popcorn (stipple) so I always use an oil paint because no matter how lighlty I paint with latex, it pulls the stipple off.....no matter what. ONce the ceiling has been oil painted, then I can use latex next time. Most ceilings I have done are older and they weren't primed prior to stippling. I think thats the problem.

Thats all I know and I'm not one of the pros.
 
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Old 05-28-06, 02:11 AM
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Thanks for the reply. The guy in home depot also said that the kilz water based primer wouldn't work on texture, and that it'd turn it mushy (and maybe pull it off).

But I really really really don't want to use oil.

So I googled 'painting texture ceiling' and the three links I looked at said I could use latex. So now I'm really confused!

http://alsnetbiz.com/homeimprovement/faq11.html
http://www.cloverdalepaint.com/html/3/IPP_ceiling.html

And I'm also wondering how you can actually tell if the texture has ever been painted..... because isn't it an off-white colour?

Time to quite stressing about it and go to bed. lol It's 2:00 a.m. and here I sit...
 

Last edited by slickshift; 06-04-06 at 06:18 PM.
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Old 05-28-06, 03:58 AM
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Popcorn ceiling can be painted with latex but.... if the texture has been compromised you will likely run into problems.

If popcorn is painted when it is new there seldom are any problems. Because new popcorn appears finished [and is a bear to paint unless sprayed] it is seldom painted. Unpainted popcorn has a tendency to obsorb moisture which breaks it down. Once more water is obsorbed [wet latex paint] it often turns loose from the ceiling. Generally the problem areas will be in bath rooms and near where windows have been left open [allowing humid air to be soaked up]

Popcorn texture is never fun to paint. I always use a 1" [or larger] nap roller cover [unless I can spray] It would be hard to say from this end if your ceiling has been painted or not. After 30 yrs you would think that the ceiling has been painted atleast once but it may not have been.

I'm not sure if you can still purchase flat oil base paint. Just using an oil base primer it may look ok for a few years. You may have trouble getting it to all look even as primer isn't formulated to flow together with no lap marks and such. If that happens, applying a top coat of latex would be the easiest fix.
 
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Old 05-28-06, 07:03 AM
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IMO the best way to paint a popcorn textured ceiling is with a paint scraper and a spray bottle of water. I hate that stuff. I have removed it in every room except one and that's on my list.

Marie - If you need paint advice listen to Mark and if you need it face to face, visit a paint store. I wouldn't ask a BOB person a question about finger painting (or anything else for that matter).
 
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Old 05-28-06, 11:21 AM
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Marie, I too feared oil until I confronted it

Just so you know.......oil isn't a killer. For one thing, you can buy low odour so it won't stink too bad. Its summer so you can leave windows open which really helps.
Also, there really is no cleanup. For stipple ceilings, I use a thick roller and when I'm done, I chuck it. Forget cleaning it unless you are doing another job right away. If you don't get everything done that day, just stick the roller sleeve in a plastic bag. Buy a cheap brush cause you aren't doing any fine detail work, then throw it away too. Buy a disposable tray, and you can toss it. Wear rubber gloves, wear junk clothes an old hat . Have a rag soaked in low-odour paint remover for any spills and you'll have no problems. Of course tarp the floor and take off your shoes whenever you leave the tarp so you don't track paint. (I have even taped Saran wrap over my shoes so I don't wreck them).

Unless you are spraying, forget the latex. I've tried to cut every corner in town but it just doesn't work (unless you know something I don't).

Are you painting the walls after? If so, this gets even easier because you can roll tight against the wall then wipe the paint down a bit off the wall.
 
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Old 05-30-06, 01:18 AM
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Thanks again for the replies. Totally appreciate it.

So how would I be able to tell if the ceilings have been painted before? There must be a way to tell...

So......if the ceilings have been painted before, whether they were painted with latex or oil, I could then use latex ceiling paint? ...... and I'm guessing the sheen should be 'flat'?

The ceiling area that I'll be painting is quite large... four rooms, and one of them is probably 20+ feet long........plus it's a 70's house with a cathedral entrance, so painting the ceiling in the entrance way above the stairs will be a nightmare, because it's so high (and the stairs are carpeted)...

I know...I know... with the amount of time I've spent complaining about the 'possibility' of maybe having to use oil paint, I probably could have painted my ceilings three times over (and maybe the neighbours too)...

Thanks again.
p.s. Will not be painting the walls.
p.p.s. Bathroom and kitchen are not textured.
 
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Old 05-30-06, 04:17 AM
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I'm not sure what would be the best way for the untrained eye to determine if the ceilings were painted. Water will disolve unpainted popcorn and usually won't affect popcorn that has been painted. If they have been previously painted you would be good to go with latex.

When painting ceilings it is always preferable to use a roller pole and paint out of a 5 gal bucket. You can get adjustable roller poles which will allow you to roll the ceiling from the floor.

I have never been fond of painting ceilings only but it can be done. I hate to recomend using tape but it may be usefull in keeping the walls free of ceiling paint. Be sure to use either the blue or green tape. Another option would be to keep a wet rag handy to wipe off any drips or splatters while they are still wet.

Although the ceiling can be painted in any sheen, flat paint is the easiest to apply - IMO it also looks the best.
 
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Old 06-03-06, 01:51 PM
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if you're going to paint popcorn it's best to use a paint designed specifically for it, and follow directions very carefully. If it's just one of those swirly or knockdown textures don't worry about it, except that you do need to wash the surface to get all the years of loose crud off the surface.

As for primer, I've successfully used Kilz Premium (water-based) on LIGHT water stains. I, too, removed the popcorn and did the mud and skim on the surface, but I knew there was probably some residue left behind and you could see discoloration in many areas. Premium did the trick and the ceilings look as good today as when I painted them 3 yrs ago.

I will also tell I did use oil-based stainkill on a couple of areas that showed water stains from a roof leak that was repaired many years ago. Premium has its limits, as Zinsser clearly states - but if it fits your application it's good stuff.
 
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Old 06-04-06, 04:17 PM
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IMO the biggest problem with painting popcorn is that it reduces your future options. Once painted, removing popcorn texture is a bear.
 
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Old 06-05-06, 01:00 PM
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I have another question, and am thinking I should probably ask it in a new thread.......Thank you all so much for the replies.
 
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Old 06-13-06, 08:55 PM
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I'm in the same boat.

My ceilings are not popcorn though, just that merange like stuff. One room is really thick. My kitchen and hall have very dingy ceilings and also had wallpaper border on them I am using a product called zinsser gaurdz to seal mine before priming with an oil based primer, I am using zinsser cover stain.

I did the walls and ceiling of the kitchen, I only have to finish texturing around the edges of the ceiling in the hall. The fumes where kind of bad but there was no clean up. I wait till I can do a large area at one time, you have to anyway to avoid streaks, they just throw the roller cover away.

Anyhoo, just wanted to throw the option of the zinsser gaurdz out there. It's thin and is like glue, the fumes are not too bad and it is water clean up. It would make removing your popcorn pretty hard though.
 
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