Paint Quality


  #1  
Old 02-02-07, 11:25 AM
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Paint Quality

Does anyone know if Dutch Boy is a good brand of paint to use? We're getting ready to paint our newly built house and I saw that Dutch Boy is on sale right now at a chain store but I do want quality.

Also, (this might be a dumb question), I have learned on here that every brand has a different level of quality within their brand and that I should buy the best quality in whichever brand I choose, but how do I know if I am buying their economy or premium brand?

I feel as though I should be going to a paint store since I'm so inexperienced, but when I saw that I could get a gallon of paint for $13.00 on sale, I thought I should find out about the quality of this particular brand.

Thanks for any help you can offer.
 
  #2  
Old 02-02-07, 11:33 AM
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I can't speak for that particular product line, but you sort of answered your own question
In as much as you really do get what you pay for when it comes to paints, it's highly unlikely that @ $13 a gallon, the product would perform as well as a premium paint @ $35 would
 
  #3  
Old 02-02-07, 12:12 PM
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Dutch Boy is a company owned by Sherwin-Williams. This does not suggest that Dutch Boy is SW paint on the cheap. Dutch Boy maintains their own production facilities, R&D, etc. They do share warehouse facilities, and distribution assets.

For an inexpensive finish, Dutch Boy should be fine.

The $35 at a paint store not only pays for the product, but you also get the benefit of a trained staff, help with your project, and higher quaility tools (good rollers, brushes etc).

Good Luck!
 
  #4  
Old 02-02-07, 01:29 PM
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Consumer reports did a paint test about 6 months ago you could look up at the library. Dutchboy was cheapest but also rated low enough that I didn't consider it. For $3 more per gal Kiltz at Walmart did very well accross the board (mildue, sun fade, coverage, ease of application). I used it to paint our basement walls that were just coated with a white waterproofer. I think it ran about $17-$18/gal. It claims one coat coverage. It covered very well, especially considering it was going on over pitted cinderblock. It also has plastic buckets with an easy unscrew wide lid and a pour spout with a drip catcher like on your liquid washing detergent. Sounds lame, but for interior use I really like that. No drips on the side, no worrying about the lid flying off as you pry it open, and no hammering the lid back on with papertowels on top to catch the paint pushed out by the lid from the crease of the can. I used it on some smooth walls and it would have covered in one coat, but the edges where we used brushes looked better with a second coat. I liked the paint a lot. Later I used Behr, which did not rank quite as high and was about the same price, but also ranked higher than Dutch Boy. I used it for some interior smooth walls because they had a paint chip color that my wife liked. It was nooooo where near as good. It was harder to use, much worse coverage, and had the standard paint can pain. I was amazed at the difference. So, there can be a big difference in paint.

I would definetly use Kiltz again over jumping to $35/gal. As I recall, it did better or equal than Sherwin Williams in CR's review. But I have never tried the $35 stuff to say for sure. Of course going to Walmart you can't expect to have anyone match an existing color (not that you can ever count on that since faded colors often can't be replicated) or make 2-3 gallons of a color that isn't a standard color like at a paint store. If it isn't a paint chip color, where they have a code to follow, I wouldn't trust them even if you paint correctly mixing the paint from the different gallons. The employees didn't seem to be that knowledgable. Probably don't have any more painting experience than a standard homeowner.
 
  #5  
Old 02-02-07, 03:41 PM
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Along with a better trained staff, at a paint store you will find better quality paint IF you buy top of line [or close] Quality paint is often easier to apply and covers better. Is 2 coats of cheap paint cheaper than 1 coat of "expensive" paint?

That isn't to say that SWP, BM, Glidden/ICC, etc don't have cheap lines of paint for sale that is no better than what you find at a big box or other price driven retailer.
 
  #6  
Old 02-03-07, 11:25 AM
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Consumer reports is a poor source of information on Paint quality, either interior or exterior.

Their testing methods do not mimic real world usage nor application. Many brands tailor products to "fit" the testing parameters. If you note in the rankings most major players do not place well (SW, P&L, & and others).

They also fail to account for the services provided at paint stores. Certainly if you are only interested in low grade paints at the best price I would invite you to purchase their top rankings.
 
  #7  
Old 02-04-07, 09:42 AM
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To the extent you want to rely on CR's ranking I just got March's CR and they reviewed paint. Low Luster rankings in order: Behr $24, Kilz $19, Valspar $27, True Value $23, Dutch Boy $15, Sears $24, Valspar $24, Ace $23, Olympic $20, Benjamin Moore $37, Martha Stewart $20. Flat = Behr $22, Benjamine Moore $42, Kilz $18, Valspar $22, Olympic $17, Dutchboy $14, Ralph Laauren $23. Semigloss = Behr $25, Dunn Edwards $40, Valspar $22, Olympic $21, Glidden $19, Dutch Boy $16, Ace $24. They were ranked on Hiding, surface smoothmess, staining, scrubbing, gloss change, sticking, mildue, fading. The more expensive paints did the best on fading. Obviously I would have ranked Kilz higher than Behr based on my experience. You, I ,and groundbeef can always quibble with the rankings but I think what they ranked them on is basically what you want to know about paint, so I have some trouble with the idea that you can't rely on them for comparing pricier brand with cheaper brand. If a paint company makes its paints to meet those catagories they are probably making good paint. Did they do a 10 year test of the paint in real world conditions like some paint manufacturers do to test their paint chemical compounds for durability, no, but such a test would not be any help to a consumer unless you can go back in time and buy the paint 10 years ago. In every product catagory cost can, but often doesn't reflect quality. However, they are also only good for what they review for example Sherwin Williams and P&L weren't even reviewed in this issue. Overall my previous post assumed that based on the orriginal question, asking about Dutch Boy because it was on sale, diyer07 wasn't planning on jumping to a $40 gallon paint. I also wouldn't tell someone to go to a private paint store to get a little advice that you can get from a book for much cheaper than jumping to $40 a gallon, but I might tell them to go there for better equipment, paint mixing, and standing behind their paint mixing.
 
videobruce voted this post useful.
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Old 02-04-07, 12:05 PM
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InRe: Consumer Reports Paint Tests

In regards to Consumer Report's paint testing, please do a search of this forum before making any rash decisions
There are many threads here regarding the CR tests, and DIYers and Professionals responses to CR's results

I know I, and many other Pros are continually baffled by the CR results
Mostly the DIYers that actually try other products suggested by the Pros ended up with the same opinion
And I do I respect, support, and subscribe to Consumer Reports

However, I don't recommend or not recommend products based on what a magazine says, only from my personal experience...or occasionally a tip from a trusted colleague (which I will clearly state I have done/used the procedure/product)

This subject has been covered here extensively
I will list some threads for viewing
Please take the time to glance at a few

http://forum.doityourself.com/showthread.php?t=259092&highlight=Consumer+Reports
http://forum.doityourself.com/showthread.php?t=273964&highlight=Consumer+Reports
http://forum.doityourself.com/showthread.php?t=245918&highlight=Consumer+Reports
Using the search feature and looking for "Consumer Reports" will turn up many more

Please understand, I paint for a living
I'm not "spoiled" because I do it all the time, and just charge the expensive stuff to the customer (trust me, it gets more expensive, I use some $149 gal. paints)
If I could save 50% on materials I would
I could keep the money, or lower my prices and get more jobs

Why don't I?
The fact is the cheaper paints make my job harder
They take longer to apply, more work to look good, cover less, and need more coats
When my job is harder, it takes longer, and I make less money
And in the case of less coverage and more coats, costs me more in materials (paint), never mind effort and time, which as many of you know, is money

Now, for the DIYer that doesn't understand how this applies to them, it's best to look at it this way:
If you are thinking, "Why do I care if it takes a little extra work, it's only my sweat and time?"
I don't know about you, but I value my free time
If given the choice between taking two an a half days and two cans of $14 paint (well, 1 1/2 really but you cant buy 1/2 gal.), or buying one can of $35 paint and finishing in one day, I'd much rather spend the extra 6 bucks, get 'r' done and have another day, dayana half, for other stuff-which with my luck would be painting the kitchen, but you can see my point...I hope
 

Last edited by marksr; 02-04-07 at 12:41 PM. Reason: did not edit! hit the wrong button :o
  #9  
Old 02-04-07, 12:40 PM
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I would add that it is soooooo much easier to get a good looking paint job with quality paints. Cheaper paints usually equal more work and not as good looking a job.
 
  #10  
Old 02-16-07, 12:51 PM
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homeowner v. contractor

I think you'll find that contract painters do not like bargain brands because they take longer to apply if you want a quality finish. A contractor wants to get in and out to the next job as fast as possible. The homeowner on the otherhand is more interested in a quality job no matter how long it takes. I believe you can get the same results from lower priced paint as the pros get with higher priced paint if you're willing to take your time and do a quality job. As any painter will tell you, rolling paint is about 10% of the job, the rest is the prep work and edging. Prep work includes patching, sanding, and most important, priming. If you're not willing to put the time in for the prep work, then no paint is going to make you happy. If do take the time to do the prep work, you'll be surprise how great any brand paint will come out, including Behr and Dutch Boy. I used about 16 gallons of Behr in the last 12 months over 3 houses (interior) and I (and the homeowners) can't complain about the finish, the brights were bright, the naturals were nice and the darks covered just fine. Of course, BM and SW are better quality, that's why they cost more. But the visual different is negligable between brands with proper wall and ceiling preping. Cheers!
 
  #11  
Old 02-16-07, 03:55 PM
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Quality paints generally cover better than the cheaper paints. You can do a job quicker if you only have to apply 1 coat. There is also usually less roller splatter with the better grades of paint.

I'm sure a decent job can be done with cheaper paints but it will likely involve more work
 
  #12  
Old 02-22-07, 04:18 PM
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This is slightly off topic but I keep seeing it in people's posts. It is the phrase "one coat coverage." As a professional painter this phrase has cost me more headaches than I can count. It is a sales technique that has caused people to think that we can cover any color or make a color change in one pass in any situtation. I think it is also fueling the disease of fastest cheapest. People do it themselves to save money. The bulk of the cost in most any trade is labor. It is usually 80+% on most of my jobs. You have already saved most of the money you can. Don't ruin the job by cutting corners. Buy the best tools and materials you can afford. This is your home not a section 8 rental. Take the time to make it right not just get it done.

ok I'm done ranting.
 
  #13  
Old 02-23-07, 04:25 PM
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wow a lot of responses.
heres my 2 cents
if you hire a plumber at $ 13 an hour how will it turn out?
buy paint from a paint store. sounds simple but they are better trained than most hardware stores.
buy the best you can afford. if you want to save money by doing it yourself than 30 a gallon is not a lot. it would cost you over 300 to have a painter do it ... so you just saved 270 dollars!!!!!
if you can afford 50 a gallon, consider it.
i managed a sherwin williams ( as well as glidden and a few other paint stores)
if you go to one of them and ask for a discount , telling them you will buy from them instead of home depot they will usually give you a break.
also. buy good tools, a brush should be at LEAST 10 bucks or more
dont skimp, all good tools can be washed and reused dozens of times.
hope this makes you think.. dedicated paint stores want your jobto work out well. so trust them when they recommend something.
ryan
 
  #14  
Old 10-28-10, 10:25 PM
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Benjamine Moore is amazing

I used Benjamin Moore paint tonight for the first time and I will never use anything else again. Over the years I have used Sears Easy Living, Behr, Glidden, and Valspar. All of them are terrible compared to the Benjamin Moore. It went on like old fashioned oil based paint. It covered in one coat. no brush or roller lines. and it cleaned up with ease. Don't mess around with low-grade paints. Do yourself a favor and spend the extra 20 bucks. You will love it.
 
  #15  
Old 10-29-10, 04:01 AM
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Just to add to the conversation, I recently returned 2 gallons of "cheap" paint and sold 2 gallons of "expensive" paint in their place (22.99 vs 29.99) because the cheaper stuff ran down the customer's arm and dripped everywhere. She called me after using the "expensive" paint and told me from now on that is all she will ever use. This particular product is considered our low-end retail/high and contractor product.

It just goes to show that "cheap" is not always better. And those of use at the paint store know what we are selling.
 
  #16  
Old 10-29-10, 08:50 AM
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I only use Benjamin Moore myself

Never had a problem
 
  #17  
Old 10-29-10, 01:48 PM
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BM has good paint BUT like all paint manufactures they also have a sub par line of coatings that isn't fit to use [IMO] It isn't enough to just use BM paint, if you use their bottom of the line coatings you won't be anymore satisfied than you would using paint from a big box. Stick with their mid grade or better paint lines and you'll be happy same can be said for most paint brands.
 
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Old 10-29-10, 02:45 PM
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Yes, Mark, absolutely right

Forgot to add I only use their top of the line paint
 
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Old 11-16-10, 08:15 PM
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I'm surprised Behr isn't more popular. I've started to use their top of the line paint from Home Depot, and it's very good - covers great, easy to use. In my experience, it's equal to the top of the line Sherwin Williams.

Also, my local Home Depot paint department is pretty good - I've been pretty impressed with them.
 
  #20  
Old 11-17-10, 06:41 AM
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Your experience with both product and staff is unusual
 
  #21  
Old 11-17-10, 07:53 PM
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Judging paint quality

When I'm wanting to change the colour I'm using for the apartment walls in my apartment building, the way I choose a paint is to seek out the HIGHEST GLOSS paint that will allow me to get complete hide of the underlying colour with one coat. Lots of flat paints can do that, and many eggshell paints can as well, but I was only able to find one satin gloss paint that could do that. (I'm fully aware that one company's "eggshell" will be another company's "velvet" and a third company's "flat", but I judge by the actual level of gloss, not the word on the can.)

The way I typically do that is by painting the perimeter of a wall using a 3 inch roller and a piece of sheet metal to do the cutting in, and then filling in with a 10 inch roller. I let that dry overnight, and if I see any increase in colour density around the perimeter of the wall (called the "picture framing effect" after the way old photographs were processed), then I know I'm not getting complete hide in one coat.

In doing that, I chose Pratt & Lambert Accolade Satin in the F4790 tint base for the walls. It was the only satin paint I tested that provided complete hide in one coat, and was truly a satin because it was visibly glossier than most company's eggshells or velvets. I chose Accolade Velvet in the 4090 tint base for the ceilings only because I wanted a lower gloss paint on the ceilings.

Now, the reason why I believe that provides me with a good choice in a paint is because:

1. The glossier the paint film, the easier it is to clean by ordinary wiping. So, marks on walls clean off easier than they would on a flat paint.

2. Titanium dioxide provides much better hide than other white pigments, but it's quite expensive compared to most other white pigments. No paint company would use a lot of relatively expensive titanium dioxide to provide good hide in a paint unless they were also intending to use top quality binders and additives as well. So, a white paint that hides well despite having plenty of gloss will be good quality because the only way to accomplish that is by using plenty of titanium dioxide as the white pigment in it. And no paint company is going to spend extra to provide plenty of titanium dioxide without spending similarily more for a better quality binder and additive package as well to make an "all 'round" good paint, and not just a white paint that hides well, but is otherwise lousy.

3. Having complete hide in one coat means less time and money spent on the job. I see no sense in painting interior walls twice instead of once if there's no visible difference between one coat and two. About the only places you need an extra coat of interior latex paint is around light switches, kitchen backsplashes and where people kick their shoes off against walls (or lean against walls while taking shoes off) cuz those places are always being scrubbed to remove dirt and marks.

But, there's a but...

But, most of the time I'm simply repainting walls the same colour, and so most of the time I don't need a high hiding paint because I'm not changing the colour of the wall. In that case, what I do is look for a paint that uses silica dust (which is silica sand pulverized into a very fine powder) as the extender pigment in the paint rather than less expensive extender pigments like magnesium silicate (which is talcum powder) or calcium carbonate (which is chaulk or high purity limestone).

The reason for this is that using a HARD extender pigment like silica makes for high scrubbability in a paint, but ONLY if the binder in the paint dries to a strong and hard film that will support those extender pigments well. Scrubbability in paint is just a measure of how hard you have to scrub paint to either dull it's gloss or scrub it off the wall (cuz a flat paint won't show much change in gloss as you scrub). And, in this respect, scrubability in paint is very analagous to the durability of sandpaper. If you're wanting to make a high quality sandpaper, BOTH the abrasive you use has to be hard, and the stuff that holds it to the paper or cloth backing has to be strong enough to hold the abrasive particles in place. If the abrasive is soft or the stuff holding it in place is weak, then the sandpaper won't stand up well. Similarily, for a paint to stand up well to hard scrubbing to remove marks, then BOTH the extender pigments (that determine gloss level) have to be hard and the acrylic resins that form the plastic film have to be strong. If either one isn't up to the challenge, the paint won't have high scrubbability.

Now, silica dust is expensive to make because it's a hard material and therefore more expensive to grind into a fine powder. Consequently, no paint company is going to use silica dust as an extender pigment unless they're ALSO going to use a strong and hard acrylic binder to support those particles (and thereby make a paint with high scrubbability). And, when it comes to interior latex paint binder resins, the strength and hardness of the film it forms is probably about the single best indicator of both price and quality.

(That's cuz every oil based paint (or polyurethane or epoxy paint) will provide plenty of strength needed for high scrubbability, but it's much harder to get anything near that kind of strength and hardness out of a relatively soft and weak plastic like Plexiglas (which is the plastic that top quality latex paints are made of). So, if you want the convenience of a latex paint, but you still want the benefits that come from higher film strength and hardness, you have to pay more for a better acrylic resin.)

So, in a nutshell, if you're changing the wall's colour, then you need excellent hide, and in a white or off-white tint base that comes from the amount and kind of titanium dioxide pigment in the can. Titanium dioxide is a relatively expensive pigment, but you can achieve higher hide in a glossier paint if you use titanium dioxide as your white pigment instead of other white pigments or white extender pigments like talc and chaulk.

Where you're repainting a wall the same colour, you don't need good hide, and so there I look at the kind of extender pigment used knowing that they would only use pulverized silica if they also intended to use a hard and strong acrylic binder to provide good scrubbability. And, since both the pulverised silica and hard and strong acrylic binder are gonna cost more, plan on paying more for a paint like that too.

Pratt & Lambert Accolade Satin in the F4790 tint base ("Designer White") uses silica as the extender pigment, stands up to hard scrubbing very well, and gives complete hide of an off-white in one coat despite having plenty of gloss. And, you don't have to wear elbow length gloves when rolling it cuz there's no spatter at all. I don't even use drop cloths when I'm painting, even over carpet. But, it costs about $50 Canadian per gallon. I use it even when repainting walls the same colour because it doesn't spatter, most of the investment in repainting is in labour, I've got two different wall colours in my building as it is so the last thing I need is to have to stock both colours in two different kinds of paint, and the money I spend on paint is tax deductable to me anyway.

Now, the above applies only to INTERIOR latex paints. That's because titanium dioxide promotes chaulking in exterior paints cuz it act's like a catalyst in the reaction by which UV light from the Sun breaks down paint binders. So, top quality EXTERIOR paints in a white or off-white colour will either use specially coated particles of titanium dioxide to reduce that effect or zinc oxide (also called "zinc white") as the white pigment in the paint. So, you can find both titanium dioxide and zinc oxide as the white pigment used in top quality exterior latex paints. So don't look down on an exterior paint that says it has zinc oxide in it instead of titanium dioxide.
 

Last edited by Nestor; 11-17-10 at 09:01 PM.
  #22  
Old 11-29-10, 02:57 AM
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Quality Paint

I would say Dutchboy works fine. The quality is good although the price is cheaper than the other brand.
 
  #23  
Old 12-01-10, 06:15 PM
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I just used Grand Distinction paint and it worked very well. I bought this from Menards for $30.00

Warren
 
  #24  
Old 05-11-11, 09:39 AM
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Has anyone used the Ben paint made by Benjamin Moore sold at Westlake? Is it comparable quality to Benjamin Moore?
 
  #25  
Old 05-11-11, 10:21 AM
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Welcome to the forums rdisin!

I don't know anything about Westlake. BM has great coatings and cheap/worthless coatings.... and some in between. We'd have to know what line of BM paint is being sold to know whether or not it is worth using.
 
  #26  
Old 05-15-11, 07:55 AM
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IMO, the labor is roughly the same or cheaper when working with quality vs cheapness.
This applies to both the pro and the DIY, at least most of them.
But why work so hard to apply junk, be it paint or flooring or a clutch ?
As to exterior paint quality, on wood, I do not know if this exists..........
I just do not know.
On concrete block(above grade), after ten years, still mostly as new.
 
  #27  
Old 05-15-11, 08:01 AM
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I agree that labor is close to the same whether using a quality coating or cheap paint although often a quality coating is easier to apply and covers better..... so that along with the potential for quality coatings to last longer - the cheap paint might be more expensive
 
 

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