Estimate in Ontario, Canada etc


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Old 02-11-07, 04:28 AM
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Estimate in Ontario, Canada etc

Hi all,

I have been reading up on estimates for painting houses etc here, and still need some help. I am 'thinking' about going out on my own, have 12 years of 'constrution' experience, and can not figure this estimating for jobs out?
So I came up with this. When pricing a job, could we say for example, a 10 x 12 room= 120 sq ft,say 3-4 hours to paint and cutting only, no fixing or primers, and say $50/hour cdn= labour and materials. Materials being 1 gallon paint-$50 (good paint) not the cheap 'painters pro' stuff--roller, brush, drop cloth= $10 give or take. Soooo--$200 for the job and $60 for materials= $140 for you, if you do the work. Pay a 'worker/helper' say $15/hour= $60 buy hi/herself, and you get $80 for doing not much. Am I close on this?
Any help would be great all, I am seriously considering a move towards being my own 'boss'
 
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Old 02-11-07, 05:06 AM
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A lot depends on what prices the market will support. Labor prices can vary greatly in different regions. Starting out you can expect to have to work cheaper than the competion just toget established. Speed also comes with experience so unless you are already a pro painter it will take awhile for you to be able to do jobs as quick as the competion.

Seldom does being your own boss = less work. Besides the physical work the boss also has plenty of paper work and bidding of jobs that doesn't really transfer into an hourly pay. It will take years of building a business and hiring [and keeping] of good help for you to be able to sit back and just collect the money. The hardest boss I've ever had, has been me.
 
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Old 02-11-07, 07:02 AM
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A couple of things you also need to factor in to be self employed.

Liability insurance is important, especially if you want to do any commercial work.
Workers compensation will be required if you hire any workers.
A great deal of discipline is needed to be able to put away a large portion of your income in order to pay personal income tax, workers comp, Canada Pension, insurance, business licence and accountant fees.
You also have to keep track of and remit the Provincial Sales Taxes and Goods and Services Taxes (GST) you will be required to collect.
Make sure you keep track of how much money you bring in so that you do not go over the amount where you will have to collect taxes.
If you start by not charging PST and GST and go over the maximum amount you will still have to pay on the jobs you did not collect from.

You may have to pay more to insure your vehicle for business purposes or need to have a vehicle dedicated to painting.
At some point you will want a separate phone line and also have to account for advertising costs. Yellow page advertising is rediculously expensive.
Even if making a reasonable living your banker may not be as eager to lend you money. People who work for themselves are often seen as a risk.

There is more but I don't want to discourage you.
Working for yourself is great but there is much more to it than the simple math you are using.
Don't quit your day job and try it out on evenings and weekends.
This will give you a taste of what self employment is all about without risking anything.
 
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Old 02-11-07, 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by ryyback View Post
...and you get $80 for doing not much. Am I close on this?
Well, you had to sell the job
You had to put the advertising in to get the phone to ring, answer the phone, pay for the phone, pay for the phone line, make the appointment, drive to the house, schmooze with the H/O, figure out what to charge, sell it to the H/O, drive to the store, wait in line, buy all the materials, drop them off at the shop/van, explain to the helper what the deal is...oh yeah, buy a van, put gas in in get insurance for it, pay the helper his wage + applicable fees for your area/country, oh you'll need liability ins., a bookkeeper or bookkeeping software to write the checks for all this stuff...the checks...the pens....etc...

I'd say no, you are not close that you get $80 for not doing much
It sounds like the $80 won't cover the "not much" that you did

This is not to discourage you in any way shape or form
It's just that when you are an employee, all this stuff gets taken care of, and rarely seen
The owner pays for it all
The desk, the water for the toilet, the trash disposal....the sticky note pads
The employee doesn't even think about it
Well, now you are the owner
 
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Old 02-11-07, 09:21 AM
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Thanks all for the reply's so far
Eyes are open a bit more now. Pricing will be a little different than what I put in the OP. The 'not much' I was talking about was all just an example, but like I said my eyes are open alot more now.
Thanks again and keep them coming, I am 'sick' of working for who I work for now. 18 years and no respect--like most places
 
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Old 02-11-07, 06:44 PM
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Like Gregg I believe you are best off starting a business part time. While you lose your "free" time you can do a lot of painting after hours and on weekends. This also gives you time to build up your reputation and client base. It will also let you evaluate if this is what you really want to do and be successfull at it.
 
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Old 02-16-07, 11:50 AM
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Red face am i the only one who noticed this???

Originally Posted by ryyback

could we say for example, a 10 x 12 room= 120 sq ft
well, you COULD say that, if you're planning on only painting the CEILING!!! (or figuring carpet!)

if your math skills aren't any better than that, you're doomed! (sorry!)

FYI: a 10 x 12 room (with 8 foot ceilings) would be 352 square feet of wall surface to be painted.

1st wall: 10 x 8 = 80 square feet
2nd wall: 10 x 8 = 80 sf
3rd wall: 12 x 8 = 96 sf
4th wall: 12 x 8 = 96 sf
total square feet = 352

or measure all wall widths & multiply by height:

10 + 10 + 12 + 12 = 44 x 8 = 352

either way, it's not 120 square feet of anything that could be related to painting. or am i missing something here?? i can't believe no one else caught that........
 
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Old 02-16-07, 12:51 PM
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Most new interior work is priced by the sq ft of living area which has nothing to do with the actual wall/ceiling surface area.
 
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Old 02-16-07, 01:06 PM
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you're kidding!!! so a house with 8' ceilings would cost the same as one with really high 10' or 12' ones???

and an open floorplan house would be as much as one with lots of boxed in rooms?
 
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Old 02-16-07, 01:31 PM
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No that is just how the pricing works. The sq ft price is adjusted for the type of house. Usually each builder always builds similiar houses. So the builder that always builds 1500-2000 sq ft ranch or split foyer always knows about what his painter will charge unless he builds a house totally different than HIS norm. Obviously a home with unpainted texture ceilings would be priced different than slick finish ceilings. Same goes for the builders that specialize large homes. Even though 12' walls are 1.5x bigger that doesn't mean the price would be 1.5x higher - there are still only 1 ceiling to cut in, same # windows, doors, etc.

A painter's sq ft price can always be adjusted to fit the particular job. It is easier on both the painter and the GC to have a set sq ft price to work from.

Repaints are always priced on a job by job basis - too many variables to have a set price.
 
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Old 02-19-07, 06:32 PM
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hello

i am a painter in northern ontario. pricing is different forall types of work.
new construction is priced on the sqaure feet of drywall ordered for the home , not the installed square feet. repaints are based on square feet of floor, with extras for larger woodwork or higher ceilings. add about 20 % for ceiling heights above feet, etc.
a average room should go for about $4- 500 prices are good right now. But i do have to say a room will take about 8 hours to do a proper job in a nice house including ceiling. dont price based on how fast youthink itcan bedone, price on how good you want it done.
youmay forget that you had to visit for the quote, return calls for questions, buy paint at store..... this is a couple of hours before you start.
then when at the job ther will be about an hour a day wasted talking and picking up supplies.
i think i am a fast painter i can paint about a room and a half a day including repairs, BUT the customer is home so that kills it all. always factor everything in the price.
you need to find out how long it takes you to paint a room and find out what the rates are in your area dont lowball, you will lose more than you imagine.
where are you from?

have to go now but you can do well with painting. but the things you need are -confidence, personality and to love what you are doing . customers will see that and you will always be busy

let me know if you need more info i can recommend some books and programs that are cheap and helpful

ryan
 
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Old 02-21-07, 03:16 AM
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Thanks all, keep the ideas coming. Like I said I am NEW to this pricing game but not painting I would love to get out on my own, and have a website ready to go to help in this, as I do websites for fun too, so I'm hoping to get things off the ground by the summer
I love painting, as I have done my entire upstairs so far, and while it has been time consuming, it does look alot better. Have done painting, new baseboards, etc etc.
Ryan, I am from Southern Ontario, near the Michigan border, with 2 bridges-guess from there-lol. Thanks for the info, and yes please, more is welcome

Thanks again all.

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