Does This Make Sense??


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Old 03-26-07, 09:32 PM
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Does This Make Sense??

I'm painting the interior of my new home this week and my general contrator is recommending the following approach:

1. spray oil based (Sherwin Williams ProClassic) coat on all surfaces (walls, ceilings, trim).

2. Wait two days

2. Roll Latex on walls

My house is brand new with pre-primed doors and MDF trim . The drywall was sprayed with PVA and then textured with a light orange peel on walls and a knockdown on the ceilings.

I was going to prime the entire house with a latex primer but my contractor said this was not necessary and I should just follow the steps above.

Is his method correct? Will it provide a for a nice finish? This is not a small or cheap house so I would like to do this the right way.

Thanks for the help
 
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Old 03-27-07, 07:34 AM
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Pardon my french, but your "contractor" sounds like a buffon. Or a tool. Actually both.

Spray your walls/ceilings with LATEX primer. Finish with Latex Topcoat. Oil finish/primer on bare drywall will raise the fuzz on the drywall paper, and can require sanding.

Not to mention the extra cost as ProClassic oil is about the most expensive finish in the SW line. And the fact that you will never get it on evenly, and require tons of thinner to clean up.
And you will need a respirator (should use one with latex as well, but not the charcol filter kind).

This clown sounds like a real professional. Stay away from his advice.

Did he also suggest instead of proper trim, just to use old 2x4 scraps and leftover mdf board?
 

Last edited by Annette; 03-28-07 at 11:47 AM. Reason: removed quote/quoting previous post unnecessary
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Old 03-27-07, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by superjet437
Does This Make Sense??
No
Not in any way shape or form
Not for your project, nor any other I could think of
Not for this planet anyways
 
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Old 03-27-07, 05:58 PM
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Paint (even oil-based) is not a primer. Use a primer for the under coat. And, yes, latex primers are good. Some are very good.
 
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Old 03-29-07, 04:51 PM
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I agree with the above, while there are times when it is preferable to use an oil base undercoat, generally it isn't needed for new construction. Never prime with oil base enamel and recoat with latex!!

The pre primed doors and trim often take 2 coats to make them look good - sand before and between coats of enamel.

I'd recomend using either a preprite primer or promar 400 wall primer for the drywall and finish with promar 200 or BETTER and use proclassic waterborne enamel for the woodwork.
 
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Old 03-29-07, 07:05 PM
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Thanks for the help. I just primed the entire house with Prep rite from Sherwin Williams. I plan on using Promar 400 for the walls and ProClassic Latex for the trim.

Thanks again.
 
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Old 03-30-07, 07:24 AM
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How much more will it cost you to use promar 200? It is a better grade of paint than the 400. It covers a little better and IMO just makes for a better looking job.
 
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Old 04-08-07, 07:46 PM
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Oh come on now people... the guys not wrong about giving that advice. There is absolutely no reason why flat paint cant be applied to those walls without primer. Every paint company I know has wall paint that is self priming.

Here is my take on regular latex wall primer, its useless. It's useless on walls, wood and stains. We tested 5 of the leading latex/acrylic primers on smooth bare drywall on a well exposed to daylight wall.

From the corner over 2' we left bare drywall, then primer#1 for 2', then 2' of bare drywall, on and on until the 5th primer. So we had 2' sections 8' tall stripes of primer going down the wall. Then we rolled ICI Dulux 1410 wall paint for the 6th stripe. Came back next day, and rolled the entire wall with 1410 going right over our primer stripes.

Next day we applied blue tape to each area that had primer under it including the 6th stripe which now had no primer and 2 coats of 1410. The overall look was best with 2 coats of 1410 AND, the 1410 area was the only area that did not pull drywall paper off with the tape. Someone might agrue taping was too soon, but not for 2 coats of paint without primer.

We had 4 paint reps out to see this test performed. None of them had a word to say.

Now oil primer is another story, it has purpose and function. I've been doing new homes for over 20 years, look me up on blogger for the full story. The internet is plaqued with misinformation.

As for that MDF, if its pre-primed and you want to do a quality job, then reprime that MDF, anything is better than what it has on it. The primer it has from the factory is garbage, it will absorb your finish paint and before you know what happened, you will have a mess. If you decide to spray trim, then you can pull that off with 2 coats of acrylic without primer.

Sorry I didnt see this post sooner.
 
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Old 04-09-07, 06:16 AM
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Originally Posted by jackpaulh View Post
There is absolutely no reason why flat paint cant be applied to those walls without Here is my take on regular latex wall primer, its useless.

I respectfully must disagree. I've personally painted over a 1000 new homes both as an employee and as a contractor. I've done walls both correctly and on the cheap. There is no substitute for a good primer and finish paint. A primed wall will both look and wear better than an unprimed wall, it also tends to touch up better which is very important with new construction.
 
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Old 04-09-07, 07:05 AM
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"self-priming" paints

There is no doubt in any way shape or form that primers make better primers, and paints make better paints

Don't get me wrong, I love self-priming paints, and use them regularly
Self priming paints have their uses, but drastic color changes, bare wood and bare drywall are not three of them

As the OP was asking if the GC's recommendation was better than the OP's plan (rather than about self-priming paints), the answer is still no
The GCs advise was bad...horrible in fact
 
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Old 04-10-07, 09:37 PM
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Originally Posted by marksr View Post
I respectfully must disagree. I've personally painted over a 1000 new homes both as an employee and as a contractor. I've done walls both correctly and on the cheap. There is no substitute for a good primer and finish paint. A primed wall will both look and wear better than an unprimed wall, it also tends to touch up better which is very important with new construction.
Mark, I anticipated such a response. Weíre talking about primer NOT sealer. Look I understand you are a retired painter. Perhaps you are not fully aware of the garbage product we have to work with today. I understand you donít know who I am or the amount of time in product testing and the reviews I write to fully take me seriously with some level of respect for my post. You know, I offered another message board $1000 to prove me wrong, no one took me up on it. When we test product, I assure you the results are thorough and final.

The only purpose of me coming to these boards is to get a better understanding of issues people face with todays product and a) try to help out by offering sound advice or b) investigate the issues, testing, reviewing so the next time I see the issue, I can respond with certain advice, not opinions.

I too painted well over 1000 new homes without primer, me, not a crew of so called painters. I go through this with other painters all the time and I agree itís hard to believe until you see it for yourself. How is it that 5 leading brands of primer DO NOT do what they say they should do, not to mention the countless other primers I tried?

What about this idea, if the whole process of 3 coating something in your opinion (1 primer, 2 finish) is to achieve consistency or uniformity, I would take the material savings and more importantly the labor and do a 2 coat paint process that works better than the 3 coat process.

How is it that primer does not adhere to drywall better than plain paint? Latex primer will not help you with moisture issues either. Itís useless, absurd as it sounds. If sheen uniformity was the issue, there is no 2 paint coat process that wonít handle that. Use quality paint and a proper method of applying it and no primer is needed. Trust me, ICI and Sherwin Williams have to put up with PIA contractors like myself putting the demand on better product, these companies spend a fortune to shut us up.

You of all people should know having 1000 houses under your belt that eggshell paints are difficult to achieve a uniform appearance. I have no problem with the 2 coat process without primer. The whole wall looks like a massive sticker was applied to it.

Here is it plain and simple, there is no latex primer that will do something extra than using just plain paint wonít do. I dont know why I bother, honestly.
-jack
 
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Old 04-11-07, 08:04 AM
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It's not that paint won't stick to bare drywall w/o primer
It will
For a while
Years, maybe

But that's when I see the problems
I'm mostly repaints
I can tell you that builders and new constructions painters can "get away with" not priming because they are long gone by the time the failures show up
After 5-7 years (or more), about the time I'm repainting, the vast majority of adhesion problems, previous paint failures, and new paint failures, are due to the fact that there was no primer used on the bare drywall
I don't mean majority like 51%, I mean like 90%

Primer helps seal the drywall (or new texture), and helps the paint adhere
Self-priming paints have their uses
New drywall, or new texture or K/D, is not one of them

Although I don't expect all New Residential, or even Commercial, Painting Contractors to agree with that, virtually all Custom Repaint Contractors will
 
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Old 04-11-07, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by jackpaulh View Post
Perhaps you are not fully aware of the garbage product we have to work with today. I understand you donít know who I am or the amount of time in product testing and the reviews I write to fully take me seriously with some level of respect for my post. You know, I offered another message board $1000 to prove me wrong, no one took me up on it. When we test product, I assure you the results are thorough and final.
If your assertation that there are NO good products on the market you are quite simply wrong. Although formulations may have changed since you picked up your first brush, I would argue that they paint of yesterday are not as good as today. There have been some difficulties in lowering VOC's, and some formulations work better than others, but to simply reduce the entire working line to 'garbage' is foolish. Perhaps you ought to step up to a quality product.

As far as your "reviews" go, we have no idea what to base our opinion on. So far your broad statements leave much to be desired. And how are you conducting your "Tests". Are you using double blind testing methods? How are the tests set up? Who buys product, and who applies it. What are your tools? Are they they same? There are many questions to be answered before you can be coronated the last word on this board.



Originally Posted by jackpaulh View Post
The only purpose of me coming to these boards is to get a better understanding of issues people face with todays product and a) try to help out by offering sound advice or b) investigate the issues, testing, reviewing so the next time I see the issue, I can respond with certain advice, not opinions.
Your advice is an opnion, just like the rest of us here.



Originally Posted by jackpaulh View Post
I too painted well over 1000 new homes without primer, me, not a crew of so called painters. I go through this with other painters all the time and I agree itís hard to believe until you see it for yourself. How is it that 5 leading brands of primer DO NOT do what they say they should do, not to mention the countless other primers I tried?
Not do what? Again, your (excuse the pun) painting with a rather broad brush. 2 coats of latex S/G WILL NOT perform the same as 1 coat SW Classic Primer/ 1 Coat SW ProClassic Waterborne Enamel. It just wont. Classic primer is designed to sand to a powder, and hold gloss. 2 coats of finish just wont do.

Same with walls. In flat finish applications on fresh drywall, lower grade products generally will perform better WITHOUT primer versus 2 coats High Grade flat. Why? Because High Grade Latex has an angular sheen. So as you look down a run, it has a bit of sheen. Generally cheaper flats don't have as much sheen. So primer MAY NOT be needed. But again, your arguement doens't hold up over time. A few positive results do not override the facts.


Originally Posted by jackpaulh View Post
What about this idea, if the whole process of 3 coating something in your opinion (1 primer, 2 finish) is to achieve consistency or uniformity, I would take the material savings and more importantly the labor and do a 2 coat paint process that works better than the 3 coat process.
This is of course counting the labor savings when you don't return to fix a complaint. Or, in new constuction, you don't deal with the end customer. If you doing spec homes it doesn't matter, as the new homeowner generally repaints anyway. Blow and go results don't wash here.


Originally Posted by jackpaulh View Post
How is it that primer does not adhere to drywall better than plain paint? Latex primer will not help you with moisture issues either. Itís useless, absurd as it sounds. If sheen uniformity was the issue, there is no 2 paint coat process that wonít handle that. Use quality paint and a proper method of applying it and no primer is needed. Trust me, ICI and Sherwin Williams have to put up with PIA contractors like myself putting the demand on better product, these companies spend a fortune to shut us up.
"Will not help with moisture issues either". Well, at least you are ill-informed across the board. Have you ever heard of elastomeric? It is WATERPROOF waterborne (latex) coating that seals concrete. It stops moisture from penetrating the exterior and causing damage on the inside.

Or perhaps you have not been reading up on the latest architect spec files, and used any number of the waterborne (latex) vapor barrier coatings. These STOP the mitigation of water vapor from either the inside of the dwelling out, or humidity from the outside to the inside.

But I'm sure in your professional testing facility you have already tested them. I am sure the major paint companies are just dying to check out your results.

It may not be adherence that is the issue. But, some primers do offer better wetting properties than paint. They may dry slower so they penetrate the surface better. There are a hundred variables.

Again, painting SG on bare drywall is a sure fire method for more than 2 coats.
High quailty paints may perform better, but I wouldn't bank on it.

Belive me, I have dealt with PLENTY of PIA contractors like yourself. We always enjoy a contractor that cannot accept any professional advice, and complains the moment their "always works" method doesn't work out. You will cut a store out to save a nickel a gallon, and then complain endlessly while drinking all the coffe in the store, as you recall painting projects of yester year.

Originally Posted by jackpaulh View Post
You of all people should know having 1000 houses under your belt that eggshell paints are difficult to achieve a uniform appearance. I have no problem with the 2 coat process without primer. The whole wall looks like a massive sticker was applied to it.
? What does that mean?

Originally Posted by jackpaulh View Post
Here is it plain and simple, there is no latex primer that will do something extra than using just plain paint wonít do. I dont know why I bother, honestly.
-jack

Then stop.
 
 

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