Sherwin Williams Superpaint

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  #1  
Old 08-06-07, 12:01 PM
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Sherwin Williams Superpaint

I just finished renovating a master bath and I painted the new sheetrock walls with Behr paint over Zinser primer. I liked the paint, hated the color. In the past I had always used Benjamin Moore paints, but the big boxes drove my local store out of business and it's a 20 mile drive to the closest BM store. For the last 5-6 years I've been using Behr and have been pleased with the results. After reading lots of negatives here about Behr, I decided to go with a different paint.

I bought Sherwin Williams Superpaint in a Satin Latex. I'm not a pro painter, but I'm not a novice either. I have some problems with the SW paint. I found it to be very thin, almost watery, which made it very easy to apply with great coverage. Unfortunately that was the only good thing I can say about it. It was runny, and had way too much roller spray (I ended up having to drop cloth everything). By far the worst aspect was that it didn't do a very good job of covering the undercoat even where it was cut in with a brush. I was covering a med dark green with a med dark brown. Now I'm looking at a brown room with green undertones and I'm doing another coat.

At $40+ a gallon I'm not pleased. Am I missing something or doing something wrong? I used a Purdy 2" brush for cut in and a 1/4" nap roller cover bought at SW. It was almost as if the viscosity was intended for spraying.

Other than the neat container, the only plus I can see with the paint was it's ease of application.
 
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  #2  
Old 08-06-07, 03:28 PM
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I've used SWP's super paint but never found it to be thin You might check back with the store and see if they have had any problems with that particular batch of paint. Also make sure they tinted the correct base for your color.

Why are you using a 1/4" nap roller? That is awfully short for walls. About the only time I use that size nap is when rolling enamel on wood or metal. A 3/8" or 1/2" would be a better choice.
 
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Old 08-06-07, 11:50 PM
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I agree that you need to bump up to a 3/8" cover. Also, what brand of cover were you using? SWP sells cheap covers not worth the plastic they are wrapped in, and they also sell excellent covers of a quality you couldn't purchase at HD. I have had perfectly fine results using 3/8" Purdy White Doves. Others prefer 50%wool/50% poly covers.

Also, dark colors are naturally tricky to cover with, so that certainly doesn't help.

In any case, when doing a color change, you always have to do two coats anyway, and I think you will be plenty satisfied when you get that second coat on.

When I painted my walls with SuperPaint, one thing I had to be careful of was not "stretching" the paint with the brush. It is very tempting, to over-brush the cut-ins, which makes the coat too thin. Even then, my 2nd coat worked great.

One thing that can cause spatter is rolling after you have already deposited as much paint as will flow properly out of the roller (dry rolling). For me, I painted a med-dark green over white primer by doing a single floor-to-ceiling stripe (usually going over the stripe three times), back-rolling the previous stripe once, and then re-loading. I had absolutely no spatter on my Extra White trim.

Also, $40 sounds high for SuperPaint. Make sure you sign up for SW's "Preferred Customer" program. That gets me a minimum 20% discount off list on everything except Duration, all the time. All you have to do is ask at the counter and they will sign you up.

Personally I hate that container... I'm asking for the metal pails the next time I need to pick up some more paint. (It comes in both.)

SirWired
 
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Old 08-07-07, 08:00 AM
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I have to agree with cwbuff's review about SP
I am a professional, but I find it way to runny for my tastes
I know the SW guys are used to it, work it and like it just fine
But after using BM and even other SW products (which I like), the SP is not on my list of paints I like to use, and/or would suggest for DIYers

A step up the a 3/8 or 1/2 may help, and make sure it's a quality sleeve-not the cheapos or SW "contractor" grade throw-aways

At least use a SW contractor 50/50 wool/poly, those are OK
(as are the other brand 50/50s)
 
  #5  
Old 08-07-07, 10:18 AM
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Thanks for the replies guys. I just finished the 2nd coat and I'm even less pleased although the results are OK. I still don't know if it's the paint, the painter or the tools. I have a a couple questions more.

Could temp/humidity be adding to my problem? It's low 90's in the room I'm painting and the humidity is very high. The first coat that I applied almost 24 hours earlier still felt a bit tacky today. In fact, I lightly scuffed an adjacent corner with the end of the roller and it removed yesterday's paint all the way to the undercoat. I have some experience with epoxy polymide paints and I know that if the undercoat isn't cured the top coat will eventually fail. Is the same true with latex?

I used the 1/4" nap roller because that's what I've always used for new sheetrock. I've done 8 rooms in the last year using 1/4" nap cover (although a different brand) with none of the problems I'm seeing here. However, I'll move up to 3/8" for the next job. It will definitely be a different paint though. I noticed that the roller spray is mostly when the roller was wet. Wouldn't a heavier nap make the spray and runs worse? I've never had paint run like this off a roller. In a couple of spots it just slid down the wall.

Last question - is it unusual for paint pigments to separate in the roller pan - in between dips of the roller, blobs of the pigment would float to the surface? The paint separated in the can in just minutes. I ended up pouring the paint back in the can, restirring, back in the pan, paint a bit and repeat. I've never had to do that before.
 
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Old 08-07-07, 10:31 AM
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Well, it seems you've done this before, so I'll say as long as you are not rolling too fast, it's more likely the paint
I find it very splattery myself also

As for the separation, it sounds excessive
But that could depend on when it was shaken, and possibly the tint also
 
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Old 08-07-07, 12:49 PM
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Hmmm... blobs of pigment floating around in the middle of painting does sound a bit odd. While pigment may separate, it shouldn't do it that fast. You may want to ask the guys behind the SW counter for advice...

The low 90's and high humidity definately could have something to do with your problems. Does the can say anything about application conditions?

SirWired
 
  #8  
Old 08-08-07, 06:15 AM
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Couple things going on here.

1. Temp and humidity are going to play hell with your project. Considering it sounds like you are using either a deep or midtone tint base this will only cause more difficulty. The color seperation is called "tint float" and can occur if they used either the wrong base, or are butting against the maximum colorant levels allowed for the base.

Is this a custom match by chance? Depending upon the color matcher, they may have "forced" the match in the wrong base rather than mistinting (eating the paint) and starting over in a more appropriate base.

If you repaint before the first coat is ready, it can indeed cause problems. Lifting, bubbling, colorent leaching, and other issues such as streaking, shiny spots, and other nasties can crop up. These problems are not an SW problem either. This is an uncured topcoating issue.

I would suggest either getting a window unit in the room to cool and dry the room, or wait a day or more with heavy ventilation to settle the problem down. Cool and dry is much better than warm and moving however. Especially with the tint load your paint has. The glycols and tinting agents tend to dry very slow, and if the surface stays wet to long, float out.

2. SW has a VERY strong warrenty called a "satisfaction" warrenty. The stores are NOT penalized for customers returning paint not to their satisfaction. If the manager is giving you a hard time, tell them to expense it under "guarantee policy" ( I can't remember the exact title, its been a while). They get FULLY reimbursed from corporate for issues such as this. Rollers, brushes, the whole 9 yards.

Explain calmly that you were not happy, and would like a FULL refund (or pick a different color, lighter would be better) and get an even exchange with new covers and the like. If the manager continues to give you trouble calmly ask for the District Manager's Name, and #. Call from the store, and explain the problem. Trust me, you will be taken care of.

I would even try to get the Duration Home (Interior) instead. It is a much better product than the flagship Superpaint.

Good luck.
 
  #9  
Old 08-08-07, 12:09 PM
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I've pretty much concluded that there is something else going on here besides the SW paint. I still feel that the paint is not DIY user friendly and have some concerns about the dry time, pigment separation etc. but I just looked at the finished product and I have a mess.

The first coat dried for 24 hours, the second coat the same. The paint is orange peeled, has runs and worse it has several 3-4 inch bubbles. I popped one and the paint is very soft and not adhered to the wall. A tug lifted the two SW topcoats, the Behr undercoat (more than a week old) and the Zinser primer (nearly a month old) off the wall down to the sheetrock paper.

I have two other rooms where I have used this primer without a problem. The Behr undercoat was hard to the touch when I painted with the SW. The 2nd coat of SW is 24 hours old and still feels a little tacky. The instructions on the can give a minimum temp for painting, no mention of maximum or any humidity restrictions although it does say dry times are affected by humidity.

I'm hesitant about bringing the paint back to SW without knowing for sure what the problem is. Any idea why the Topcoats would lift the primer from the wall? The ceiling is painted with the same primer and Kilz ceiling paint with no problems.
 
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Old 08-08-07, 01:14 PM
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You certainly do have a mess.

1. Its not really the "fault" of the mfg, or the paint. You are a suffering from humidity related failure. Unfortunatly, you really do need to reduce both the heat, and the humidity for your job to continue.

What you have is the moistue in the air preventing the moisture in the paint from flashing out of the coating. It would be sort of like priming the walls, then rolling on a layer of wet newspaper, then waiting a few hours and rolling on another layer of wet paper.

You are just allowing the moisture to sit on the surface. In effect, each new layer of paint you are applying is acting like a water based paint stripper. Primer, and topcoat can endure a short window of being "wet" before starting to fail. You have FAR exceeded the window and are now paying the price. In all seriousness, at least it is failing all over. Scrape the crap off NOW before it starts to actually dry (or worse mildew and rot). Then either wait until its cooler and drier, or get a window unit in the room (or a dehumidifer if you don't have a window unit.). REPRIME, and re topcoat.

If you don't act now, you got a serious problem coming up.


2. You may still have a paint issue. If the tint is continually floating up, that is not a good sign. I would still take it back, and have them look at it. Check the base, and post what it is on the front of the can. It is either, Extra White, Midtone, or Deeptone. Then let me know what the formula is.

White can take up to 4 oz of any combo. Midtone can go about 8-10. Deep Base can hande up to about 12 oz colorant. After that it gets squirrly.

Just write the formula, and base as noted on the lable. I can figure it out from there.
 
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Old 08-08-07, 01:27 PM
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"Any idea why the Topcoats would lift the primer from the wall?"
Most Likely Scenarios:
The walls were contaminated
The humidity is too high
They could have been not fully dusted (or at all), or the wrong type of cleaner used...heck the sheetrock guy might've dropped a can of WD-40 (though that's not likely)
Excessive moisture or humidity could be environmental or climatic
Or could be due to excessively moist interior of the walls from deign flaws of failures of some sort

Regardless, your paint is not curing
How high is the humidity in the atmosphere there?
 
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Old 08-08-07, 02:31 PM
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OP stated earlier that its in the 90's and high humidity. Very unfavorable combo for a paint job.

At this point, I am leaning more towards a moisture failure than a contamination issue. The lack of drying, OP states the topcoat is still tacky after 24 hrs. Blistering, peeling, and removal of primer in a uniform fashion all over the rooms points directly to a moisture failure.

This has mildew complaint in 1 year written all over it if not tackled now.
 
  #13  
Old 08-08-07, 04:13 PM
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OK - I'm now convinced it's a heat/humidity problem. I live in the NE and temps and humidity have been abnormally high for the last week or so.

Here's what I think happened. I painted a coat over an existing paint when it was really hot and humid (90+ temps high 80% humid). The first coat didn't cure before the top coat was applied even though SW says recoat in 4 hours. Once the top two coats were on the excessive moisture got between the primer and drywall and lifted the primer and all three coats in spots. I've e-mailed SW asking their opinion.

The drywall (that I hung) was wiped down with a damp sponge before the primer was put on. The primer was on for nearly as month before I painted with Behr Premium. The Behr was on for about a week before I put on the SW. The Primer/Behr were put on under normal temp/humidity and showed no evidence of peeling/bubbling or lack of cure.

I don't expect a mold/mildew problem. Neither are very common in our area, the bathroom is well ventilated (window and fan) and the obnoxious humidity we have recently is unusual.

The SW paint is 7705 Wheat Penny mixed from a deep base. I poured some into a paint tray this afternoon after stirring in the can and there was none of the tint separation I saw earlier. I did this in the basement that is probably 20* cooler than the bathroom. I no longer think the paint is the problem although I wil never use this paint again.

Again, thanks for the help. I've got a fan running in the BR and the weather is due to break. Once it cools down, I'm going to get off all the loose stuff and repaint (with a different brand).
 
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Old 08-08-07, 06:38 PM
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It may be easier to get the loose stuff off now as it really doesn't have any adnesion. If you let it dry, then remove, you may have future problems. The stuff that doesnt come off now, may suffer when "rewet" with future paint coats.

As far as not using Superpaint again, I would return it and get Duration Home interior as a replacement. Thats what the Satisfaction Guarantee is all about.

Anyway good luck!
 
  #15  
Old 08-16-07, 06:26 AM
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SW Update

I finished repairing my SW Superpaint disaster. I peeled, scraped and sanded all the loose, sagging and orange peeled areas (a real PITA). I feathered the paint edges and reprimed the exposed areas. I just applied the second coat of the same SW paint and I'm really pleased with the results. More importantly, the wife is very pleased.

This time it was as if I was using an entirely different product. The paint went on easily as before, but there was no running or sagging, no orange peel, no tint separation, in the pan, no roller spray and most importantly there was good adhesion between the first coat and the undercoats. While the paint still seemed thin it was nowhere the same viscosity as it was when I put it on under high temp/humidity.

Lesson learned - high temperature and humidity is a good excuse for not painting.
 
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Old 08-16-07, 06:39 AM
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"Lesson learned - high temperature and humidity is a good excuse for not painting."

They are a good excuse for a hammock and some iced tea


Thanks for the update, I'm glad things are OK now!
 
  #17  
Old 08-21-07, 06:37 PM
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I've used about 15 gallons of Superpaint in my home and found it extremely easy to work with. The results have been great.
 
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