Even finish on painted wood...


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Old 01-28-08, 04:07 PM
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Even finish on painted wood and what kind of gloss/clear coat?

I am painting a wood table that I built and would like to get a high gloss or semi gloss finish. The wood is a type of hardboard, and therefore you can't really see any grain.

I've already started and sealed and sanded the wood. I've also put down a flat black paint which includes some kind of primer in it (or so the guy at Frazee Paint told me). I put one coat on, then wet sanded the flat black with 400grit, then I put another coat on and wet sanded this coat. I was told to use a roller when applying the flat black paint since I don't want brush marks, but I can't seem to get the coat 100% even.

Do I need to put on more coats of the flat black and try to build it up some more? When finished wet sanding, the paint still doesn't look completely even and since the paint is water based, some of it comes off when wet sanding; is that normal? After wet sanding, the layer is much smoother, but again, not even throughout in certain light.

In order to get a nice gloss finish, should I just varnish/lacquer the flat black or put on a high gloss black paint over the flat? If I should just put a clear coat on it, what kind should I get that'll go over an acrylic based flat paint?

This is my first time really trying to paint something correctly.

Thank you for any thoughts.
 

Last edited by cerupcat; 01-28-08 at 05:21 PM.
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Old 01-29-08, 06:08 AM
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Welcome to the forums!

Ideally you would spray the finish on. I'm a little suprised that wet sanding with 400 grit has much effect on latex paint. I would sand the entire top with 180-220 grit and then apply a coat of oil base enamel [gloss black] sand again [w/220 or finer] and recoat. You should be able to tell from there if you need finer sandpaper and another coat of paint.

If you have any problems applying the oil base evenly, thin it down a little with either paint thinner or penetrol.
 
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Old 01-29-08, 10:20 AM
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Thanks for the information. I'm trying to get a really smooth finish and was reading a bunch of places that wet sanding in between is what I should do. So is that not right? That would explain why some of the paint comes off when using the water. I'm using a Duratec II 100% Acrylic Flat Black paint. Dry sanding seems to just rough up the paint.

Spray on finish meaning spray can or actual sprayer? Unfortunately I don't have access to a sprayer.

Also, I found in many places that it would be better not to use a gloss paint and that a lacquer on top of a flat paint would be easier to get even since gloss paints aren't easy to get even.

So I'm pretty confused now since I've read so many different things.

Since my first post, I put another coat of the flat black on and sanded, and it's pretty smooth and even now. I'm just afraid to ruin it with a gloss paint if I should try a lacquer.

I'm painting the sides of a table (box) so the surfaces are all vertical.
 

Last edited by cerupcat; 01-29-08 at 11:11 AM.
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Old 01-29-08, 11:33 AM
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Hmmm... I wonder if the problem is the wet sanding before the paint has time to cure. The recoat time for house paint may be four hours, but the paint does not fully harden up for weeks. Water may still be able to affect the paint until it hardens up.

I don't think wet sanding is going to buy you anything over dry sanding. Any imperfections that wet sanding would clear up are going to be filled in by your gloss coat anyway.

SirWired
 
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Old 01-29-08, 11:39 AM
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Ok. Well I'm wondering what the gloss coat should be now. Whether it should be a gloss paint or a clear coat lacquer? Frazee paint gave me both the flat black and a high gloss water based paint (I don't think it's latex though). But after doing some reading, I saw that lacquering over the flat may produce smoother results since flat paints are easier to get even; this is the reason I was trying to smooth out (wet sand) the flat paint. I waited about 6 hours in between wet sanding.

I tried dry sanding and it make the surface somewhat smooth, but also then the surface had the paint dust on it so it wasn't even. What would I use to get the paint back to it's full dark color after sanding (if not water)?

Are there any brand recommendations for either a clear coat, lacquer, or high gloss (should I just use the high gloss Frazee gave me?

Originally I was going for a high gloss "piano black" look. But now, I'd just be happy with an even/protected finish. If it's high gloss/mirror like that would just be a bonus. Unfortunately this is for a school project and therefore I can't allow 3 weeks for just painting.
 
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Old 01-29-08, 12:50 PM
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Since you already have the latex or waterbase gloss black, I'd go ahead and use it. It's doubtfull you will get a mirror like finish using the products you have and without being able to spray........ but it still should come out looking good. I use gloss enamels all the time and rarely use a sandpaper finer than 220 grit [dry sanding] If you don't like the way it looks after the first coat of gloss, sand lightly, dust and recoat.
 
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Old 01-29-08, 04:04 PM
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Ok, I think i'll try the black gloss on a scrap piece first. The main thing is that I want the paint to be smooth to the touch. How do I get the paint brilliance to maintain itself after sanding it? Each coat dries with some texture, so sanding I would assume is necessary (even on the final coat). Wet sanding was the only way to get it smooth and keep most of it's color. I tried dry sanding with 220 and it made the coat whiter. Would I need to use a wet paper towel to remove this dust coat from the sanding?

I tried painting a scrap with the flat black and then gloss, but I didn't sand it at all and it came out looking uneven and also had texture to it (not smooth at all).

If I'd get a better finish using lacquer, then I'd rather do that or buy whatever else I would need (besides a sprayer).
 
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Old 01-29-08, 05:53 PM
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Water base paints are not going to give that smooth piano finish in any way. Even if you sprayed the latex. This wood is very smooth and laquer or oil based paints would give you what you are looking for, if sprayed on. But its too late. If this is only for a project, maybe a clear lacquer would be the one to use. But over the latex I have doubts on how long this would last. Latex needs to breath.
 
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Old 01-29-08, 06:14 PM
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It's for a project, but a rather big one that I'd like to last. So no I can't afford to spend a month on painting alone, but I would like to get some kind of final coat on it so that it is at least protected. After wet sanding, I've gotten the flat black to be very smooth. So now I'm just wondering about a top coat.

This is the first time i've heard that using 100% acrylic paint is hopeless.
 
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Old 01-29-08, 06:33 PM
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Originally Posted by cerupcat View Post
It's for a project, but a rather big one that I'd like to last. So no I can't afford to spend a month on painting alone, but I would like to get some kind of final coat on it so that it is at least protected. After wet sanding, I've gotten the flat black to be very smooth. So now I'm just wondering about a top coat.

This is the first time i've heard that using 100% acrylic paint is hopeless.
For furniture latex is never used. Outdoor plastic furniture has a water borne spray enamel. But this is outside. Indoor furniture like a table should be lacquer from the get go ideally. Your idea for the clear sounds good. Furniture finishing is a art in itself. It requires a shop room with ventilation and special tools along with spraying equipment. I do not have much experience with this. With a smooth flat black latex..........try the clear on a test piece of wood. Let us know how that comes out. At this point I do not have a definitive idea.
 
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Old 01-29-08, 06:43 PM
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Ok, I'll report back I guess. The problem is I don't know what kind of clear to use that will go over 100% Acrylic. Would it be a lacquer a varnish, a polyurethane? Is latex paint and 100% Acrylic the same thing?

I guess no one at Frazee Paint told them that this paint shouldn't be used for furniture (which is what I told the guy it would be used for).

First I'll try (with a scrap) to paint the gloss acrylic over the flat black and see how that turns out. Maybe I won't need a clear coat if it comes out well? Since the flat black is pretty even and very smooth right now, I'm contemplating just leaving it (as is) for my project showing, and maybe then i'll look into a clear coat after the deadline. I'm just worried it would get damaged with no kind of coat over the flat black. I just can't afford messing up the paint (needs to look at least decent).

If I had to, would it be possible to but an oil based paint over this flat black acrylic? Just trying to see if I can at least salvage anything (without having to strip the current paint)
 
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Old 01-29-08, 06:53 PM
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Is this a small table like coffee table or end table? A few cans of clear spray would work for a small area. But a high gloss varnish should work as well. I have seen a pour on finish that gives a 1/8 inch clear gloss finish. It has been over ten years since I have seen this. I am sure that it is available. Brushing may soften down the black so I would think the pourable clear or spray cans. Do test all this, you don't want to ruin all your hard work.



You may get away with a high gloss oil over this flat. Again test on a piece of wood. Oil over latex is taboo. Once latex is applied.....no oil! Unless you strip.

 
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Old 01-29-08, 07:02 PM
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Unfortunately the table is fairly large. Here's an image prior prepping and putting the flat black going on: The table is about 2.5ft. high x 4 ft. long x 2.5 ft deep.

Since all the walls of the table are vertical, I doubt I'd be able to poor something on. I had someone recommend something similar that involved a 2 part epoxy type clear coat that would dry 1/8-1/4" thick.

I'll look into spray or varnish after testing what I have already.
 
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Old 01-29-08, 07:40 PM
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The two part epoxy clear sounds like a good idea. Thanks for the picture. We need more of these on DIY.com. I just am not sure what clear. Other then spraying, not sure what will work best. Do your test piece now, wait 25 hours and clear coat
.
 
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Old 01-31-08, 10:26 AM
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Well my first test with black gloss paint over the flat didn't turn out well. The gloss really doesn't look very good (even on a small scrap piece). So That definitely won't be the way to go for this. Time to look for some kind of clear coat.
 
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Old 01-31-08, 12:42 PM
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Exactly what is wrong with the gloss coat?

You should be able to get a decent finish with the gloss black. Is it drying too fast during application?
 
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Old 01-31-08, 05:11 PM
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Originally Posted by marksr View Post
Exactly what is wrong with the gloss coat?

You should be able to get a decent finish with the gloss black. Is it drying too fast during application?
I'm not sure. It just didn't seem to dry evenly and would definitely need some sanding. I tried sanding it and that just made the markings of the roller standout for some reason.

I think gloss clear coat over a flat paint makes more sense and from other articles I've seen it sounds like a better way to go. Still looking what kind of clear coat to get though. Since I'm so afraid of messing the current paint up (since it's smooth and pretty even) I might have to leave it as is (although I wanted at least a protective finish if not a clear gloss).
 
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Old 02-01-08, 05:27 AM
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If you must use a clear over the flat black - use a poly, either waterbased or oil base polyurathane will work.

I'm not fond of using poly over paint as it complicates any touch up painting.
 
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Old 05-01-08, 03:34 PM
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in response to that two part epoxy that dries real thick, anyone have any suggestions, im building a table, a replica of an NBA court and want to cover it with something thick that wont get harmed by water or or anything.
 
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Old 09-20-08, 10:05 AM
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Black finished table

Folks, for that "Black Piano" look, kindly google the term,"French Polish". George Grotz described this technique in some detail in his book,"The Furniture Doctor" some 35 years ago. Spray cans have made this a bit simpler, these days. Suggest you do this in a WELL ventilated plce, lest you wind-up hung-over from the job!
 
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Old 09-20-08, 06:44 PM
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When if comes to rubbing out a finish, shellac and lacquer are the best. Many people don't like working with lacquer because of the strong solvent.

You can make a black shellac by adding universal colorants (in this case lamp black) see Zinsser's tinting page for directions.

Spray on several coats allow for proper drying between coats. You must have sufficient film build before you begin rubbing out the finish. To begin the rubbing out process start with fine sandpaper (400 grit or so) and work progressively finer. Finish off with auto rubbing compounds.

Latex paints by the way are horrible for buffing out. They are too soft and each coat is a totally separate layer (the coats don't melt together like shellac or lacquer).

You might be able to put the shellac over the acrylic flat black without any problems - but I would strip off the latex and start over.
 
 

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