Exterior Hardiboard painting catastrophe


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Old 11-22-08, 08:26 AM
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Exterior Hardiboard painting catastrophe

Hey,
I installed Hardiboard siding on our new house and called Hardi corp. to ask if their primed siding was sufficiently primed before we painted. They assured me it was as long as it was installed within 6 months. l also used a recommended paint of Hardie corp. from Lowes called Valspar Premium acrylic latex.
This paint covers real well but I'm having a "blending" problem overall and it looks terrible!!

Hardi is blaming the paint and Valspar is blaming the siding. I've got a pic I could post with this post but apparantly my ability to that is off because it says so at the bottom of the message box. I run into that a lot and am not sure why I'm dissallowed to post pictures. If an administrator is reading this can you please change my priviledges? I really need to post this pic so readers can see what I'm talking about.
 

Last edited by vett82ce; 11-22-08 at 08:48 AM.
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Old 11-22-08, 08:56 AM
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You may have to put a coat of shellac on the primer to avoid the blending. That's a bummer. I would think that the problem is with the primer on the board, which should not bleed, once dry, especially with a finish paint recommended by the manufacturer! They are probably using some crappy primer made in China! I'd go after the manufacturer really hard.
 
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Old 11-22-08, 12:10 PM
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Picture of problem

I still can't post attachments on this site so see this link for a pic of the prob:

What the %$@# !! Exterior Hardiboard painting catastrophe - Paint, Paper & Plaster - BBS - BobVila.com
 
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Old 11-22-08, 12:10 PM
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What do you mean by "blending" problem?

Is the paint showing lap marks where you join painted sections?

Ok, I've just seen your picture.

It can't be wax bleed since this is cement siding. These must be lap marks (?) but it is a very peculiar pattern for lap marks though.

The way you paint horizontal siding is from right to left (or left to right if you wish) painting only a few pieces of siding at a time. That is, you paint two or three strips of siding from one end of the house all the way to the other end. Then move on to the next two or three strips of siding and repeat etc.... Start at the top two or three strips, then do the next two or three strips below etc..... This will allow you to keep a wet edge and prevent lapping.
 

Last edited by Slatz; 11-22-08 at 12:51 PM.
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Old 11-22-08, 12:13 PM
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yes and no I guess, but its more like the "wet edges" of the brush (once brush makes initial contact with the surface) darkens heavily in that area.

Another posted pic is here (this is of the side of the house and the paint is 24 hours dry):

What the %$@# !! Exterior Hardiboard.....2nd pic - Paint, Paper & Plaster - BBS - BobVila.com
 
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Old 11-22-08, 12:55 PM
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If the you can't keep a wet edge painting the siding in the horizontal painting method (end to end), then the primer is too porous and must be sealed (don't use shellac for exterior priming - it is too brittle and is a vapor barrier), or you may need to change your paint to a premium brand and line of paint - or both.

You may want to buy a gallon of premium paint (from Hardiboard's "approved" list of paints) and paint out a few strips - using the horizontal end to end painting method - and see if you still have the same problem. If so, it is not the paint.

Also note: You can use a "covered end" mini type of roller to paint the siding, it will go faster than brushing or cutting and rolling.

Did you in fact get to the painting prior to the 6 month "deadline"?
 

Last edited by Slatz; 11-22-08 at 01:11 PM.
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Old 11-22-08, 03:51 PM
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How many coats were on in that picture?

SirWired
 
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Old 11-22-08, 03:56 PM
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Personally I never trust the primer on preprimed siding. I've always found it prudent to reprime the siding after it's installed. Also I'd use a better paint than what you can find at any big box. Your local paint store is the best place to find quality coatings.

I agree with Slatz that the first thing to try is repaint 1-2 laps completely across so as to rule out any improper application.

I don't know what locale you are in - what are the air temps? before, during and say 4 hrs after painting?
 
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Old 11-22-08, 04:56 PM
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Thanks for the replies. I've been out for a few hours. I'll try to answer all the questions in this post.
The siding was installed way within any 6 month period. I talked to the sales rep about that and that Hardi is in an out of those yards constantly at a high rate so it did'nt sit with them either. Could have sat at the middle man's though? Temp here (Ga.) when painting was unseasonably cool-about 55-60 degrees with 30 degree nights and breezy.

The pics posted were with one coat applied. I hav'nt attempted the second coat until I could find out more about the blemishes. I did do a 3x5 area yesterday to see if it helped and it drowned it out about 50% but the same exact marks bled through.

We did try brushing it differant ways (like 1-2 laps all the way through) but you still get those blemishes-they're just in differant areas.

I still need to put one more coat around the house and have already bought the paint. I'm looking for a way if possible to make it better this time around. The rolling sounds like a plus. any other ideas are appreciated.
 
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Old 11-22-08, 05:05 PM
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By the way. The Valspar paint was on Hardi recommended list. It's rated as a "one coat paint" but painters that paint behind my work (I'm a trim carpenter) told me never accept that and to always do 2 coats. One thing about that paint though that I noticed was how incredibly fast it began to dry. Almost to fast in my opinion. After you went down a lap painting about 6 feet you could turn around and the beginning was already dry to the touch. Is that normal and could some overly excited to dry type paint have contributed to those markings?
 
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Old 11-22-08, 06:16 PM
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Drying too fast will contribute to the markings for sure.

Whenever you join two sections of paint together, you must blend wet paint into wet paint. If the previous section has dried, you will double the film thickness (this is a "lap mark") and the overlapped area will be shinier and a little different in color.

If the paint is not really a good one coat hide (as sirwired inquired), the laps with have better hide than the non lapped portions - and thus look different in color.

Drying too fast could be an indicator that the primer is too porous. But, I would think that the first coat of finish paint may seal the primer. Try a second coat on a few strips.

Rolling applies the paint more uniformly than brushing (or even spraying) when it comes to lapping sections of paint together. If you've done a good job on cutting in the underside of the siding on the first coat (and have good hide/coverage), all you need to do now is a smooth rolling on the face of the siding for good uniformity. Use the covered end roller and make contact with the underside of the siding but don't slow down by independently cutting it in with a brush.
 
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Old 11-23-08, 03:03 AM
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It's not a good idea to apply latex paint when it is expected to drop below freezing - I hope you are quiting early in the day if it's expected to drop below 35`

Adding a product like flood's floetrol or XIM's X-tends will slow the drying time possibly helping you to avoid lap marks..... but I'd try a 2nd coat on a few laps first and see how it looks.
 
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Old 11-23-08, 05:36 AM
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I'd tend to agree with Marksr about the quitting early comment. Those are pretty cool temps to be doing exterior painting in. With regular paint that is. I wonder if perhaps if the surface isn't totally dried in the morning when you start? Perhaps a little residual moisture from overnight humidity? Could cause varying dry time issues or bonding issues with the paint and surface. Any interest in taking a bit of sandpaper or a fine sanding sponge lightly to one of the blemish areas? Just a little exploratory scuffing to see if it's bonding properly. Pick an 'out of the way' spot that wouldn't be a pain to touch up. Just some ideas.

PS. I'm always suspect of one coat paints as well. Usually the companies are appealing to the inherent 'cheapness' of us painters and subsequently customers. No disrespect to fellow painters with the 'cheapness' comment. That's how we make money after all.
 
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Old 11-23-08, 07:47 AM
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Many paint can labels on paint I have used specify the application temperatures; they usually call for room temperature type numbers. Check the label on the can you are using and follow their recommendations.
 
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Old 11-23-08, 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted by marksr View Post
It's not a good idea to apply latex paint when it is expected to drop below freezing - I hope you are quiting early in the day if it's expected to drop below 35`

Adding a product like flood's floetrol or XIM's X-tends will slow the drying time possibly helping you to avoid lap marks..... but I'd try a 2nd coat on a few laps first and see how it looks.
Many good replies from all.

I think rolling will quell the beast (so to speak) some and because the paint is so thick I think if it is "wetter" too it would be better. The can gives a formula per gallon for water to cut it, but do you think the floetrol would be better than thining with water?
 
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Old 11-23-08, 01:18 PM
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Water thins the paint = thinner coat. Floetrol doesn't really thin, it makes it "slide" better so you should wind up with thicker coat of paint on the siding. That said, since you are using 2 coats, a little water shouldn't hurt the coating life - just don't get carried away!
 
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Old 11-24-08, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by JeffBValspar View Post
I'm Jeff Bartos, a technical support supervisor at Valspar. I came across your comments about Valspar Premium Acrylic Latex paint and I am sorry you haven't had the outcome you hoped for with this particular project. We truly believe in our products and would like to speak more with you about your experience to see if we can help with some suggestions to correct the problem.




Please feel free to call our technical support department at 888-313-5569, ask for me, and we can discuss in greater detail. We look forward to hearing from you.
Jeff appreciate your diligence. Ron Letch of Valspar is already working on getting a Valspar rep to me in my area but I hav'nt heard back from him yet. I will keep your # in case I need it.

JW
 
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Old 11-24-08, 10:21 AM
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Personally, unless it looks worse in person than in the picture, I would put on a second coat before getting too worried. It takes a damn fine paint, an ideal surface, perfect conditions, and perfect application to do a color change in one coat. A BigBox paint on fresh hardboard in cool weather applied by a DIY is none of those things.

Since you really need two coats anyway (for protection purposes, not just hide), why not see what it looks like then?

SirWired
 
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Old 11-24-08, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by sirwired View Post
Personally, unless it looks worse in person than in the picture, I would put on a second coat before getting too worried. It takes a damn fine paint, an ideal surface, perfect conditions, and perfect application to do a color change in one coat. A BigBox paint on fresh hardboard in cool weather applied by a DIY is none of those things.

Since you really need two coats anyway (for protection purposes, not just hide), why not see what it looks like then?

SirWired
I did do a 3x5 area the other day under ideal conditions to see if a second coat helped. The second coat drowned it out some (where it was'nt so loud a blemish) but the same original "wet edge marks" or those darker markings you saw in the original pics bleed right back through again. Ideal surface, perfect conditions, and perfect application are'nt necessarily going to help a professional over a DIY if the paint is either soaking to fast or it's overly excited to dry and cover (like a one coat paint would be). This paint dries about as fast as you can dip your brush (or roller).
 
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Old 11-24-08, 01:35 PM
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Just had a pro painter come by and look at the exterior walls and he said the markings were referred to as "flashing" and it "flashed" because it was not sprayed.

Does that sound completely accurate to you pros? I could'nt imagine that Valspar would get very far in sales (or any paint company for that matter) if they insisted that their siding paints must be sprayed.
He went on to say whether you roll it well or brush it well would'nt matter because it will flash if it is'nt sprayed?
 
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Old 11-24-08, 03:47 PM
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You can get lap marks with spray, just like you can with brush or roller. Who sent the painter by?
 
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Old 11-25-08, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by marksr View Post
You can get lap marks with spray, just like you can with brush or roller. Who sent the painter by?
He's just one I called to price the interior. I got his opinion of the happenings outside while he was there.
 
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Old 11-25-08, 11:06 AM
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He may have meant that with spray application it is easier to get coverage with one coat.
I'm inclined to believe they are lap marks - the lap marks more or less have 2 coats while the area in between has 1. The faster a coating dries, the harder it is to prevent.
 
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Old 11-25-08, 04:39 PM
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You are more likely to get lap marks (or flashing) with spray because you are not making contact with the painted surface. You are simply doubling the thickness each time you join a section together.

"Flashing" is the term used to described the increased gloss that occurs when you double the film thickness when lapping i.e. "lapping" will cause "flashing".

The roller on the other hand, (if you maintain a wet edge) will "pick the paint up" and lay it back down where you join two sections together - maintaining a relatively uniform thickness at the joint.

I have painted many, many, many aluminum sided houses over my 23 years of painting. Most I have sprayed. You spray from window to window (or break point to break point) to avoid laps. Where there are no breaks in the siding you "walk it" with a pole gun - from end to end if you can or feather your laps over big three or four foot area so they won't be noticed. Where I get a noticeable lap, I recoat the face of that strip(s) of siding with a short nap roller to remove them - it works for me every time.
 
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Old 12-02-08, 07:12 PM
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I do not trust pre primed products. I usually tint my primer pretty close to the finish color. It looks like lap marks to me. I myself would of sprayed it if possible. When i do not spray exteriors i usualy brush them. In this case though i would suggest you try the roller.
I agree that a second coat might take care of this problem if you use proper technique. Starting from the right or left and painting 2 boards at a time. You must always keep that wet edge.
If you are having this kind of trouble have the painter that is giving you the bid for the interior finish off the outside as well.


Sean
 
 

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