Paint not sticking to walls

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Old 02-05-09, 01:48 PM
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Angry Paint not sticking to walls

I recently bought a house as an investment. I painted the interior of the house with Olympic Fasthide flat latex paint from Lowes. We applied paint with brushes, rollers, and a paint sprayer a few weeks ago.

Today I went in to touch up trim paint on the door casings. I got some white from the trim on the wall, so I took a wet rag to the wall to wipe off my mistake.

I found to my horror that the wet rag took the paint off the wall, exposing the original wall color. I tested and this is happening everywhere in the house. I'm just sick to think that all that work and money went for nothing.

During the painting, there was no indication of problems on most walls. In the hallway and in one bedroom, there was evidence that the paint wasn't sticking to the walls. I got advice and applied primer (Kilz) in the hallway before applying paint. Well, the paint still didn't stick the walls very well, and even where I painted over primer, the paint will come up with a wet rag.

What happened to cause this, and how do I fix it?
 
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Old 02-05-09, 04:20 PM
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There most be some type of contaminate on the wall..... the temperature [including wall temp] was warm enough to paint?

The big box stores aren't the best places to buy paint. Their coating selection is usually based on price rather than quality. I'm not real familiar with the coating you used other than it's not top of the line or close.

Did you use the original oil base kilz? or latex? Did the kilz adhere to the wall? When you washed the paint off of the wall, did it roll off? or disolve?
 
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Old 02-05-09, 07:07 PM
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Contractor-grade?!

Hello EveryoneBeer 4U2!
My 1st post on this Forum!
(I DO recognize some "names" though!)

Yep, that paint is a contractor-grade (at best!).
* Worse yet, it's a CHEAP FLAT, which wash horribly.

There's lots of other variables too.
The Moderator emplied wall contaminants.
That IS a big issue!
* Walls should be washed with POWDERED Dirtex. Very good pre-paint cleaner which normally doesn't need rinsing.
* Another issue is applied-thickness. No two people will apply paint at the same mil-thickness.
* Pre-existing paint viability. If it's a crappy contractor-flat there now, and more crappy flat is applied over it, the walls will have the porosity & washability of quicksand...
* Kilz primers are just average at best, especially the latexes.
* We dropped the Kilz primers & Behr paints we had.
* For primers...just C2 and Zinsser!

Background:
I work at pretty busy Hardware/Decorating store...NOT a big-box!! We're independant.
Our 3 paint lines are C2, Ralph-Lauren, & ACE-Royal.
We don't bother with "Contractor" grades. They create more problems than they're worth.

Case in point right here...with the OP!!

Faron
(waaaay up in "Frozen Fargo", ND

This site has the COOLEST SMILIES!!!
 
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Old 02-05-09, 07:56 PM
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When you first bought the place did you notice the smell of cigarette smoke in the house?
I have several rental properties and have to paint them on a regular basis. I've noticed that the residue that builds up from smoke is nearly impossible to paint over. Now, I always make sure I scrub the walls down before I paint, which can be a disgusting process cleaning the filth off the walls, but it seems to help.
 
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Old 02-05-09, 09:14 PM
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No, no evidence of cigarette smoke.

Temp. was fine for painting. I'm certain it had to be latex Kilz. The paint doesn't roll off as a solid; it dissolves into the rag.

While I do appreciate the comments on the quality of paint that I used, what do I do now? I shudder at the thought of washing the paint off all the walls and starting over.
 
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Old 02-06-09, 04:35 AM
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Latex Kilz has been reported to have adhession issues. I never use it because it's a poor stain sealer.

Ideally the cheap paint would be removed and replaced with a quality coating. You might be able to get by with applying a penetrating primer like zinnser's gardz and then repainting.
 
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Old 02-07-09, 08:12 AM
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How is the paint coming off the wall?

Is it:

1. Eroding away under the rubbing of the rag to expose the white primer or underlying paint?

2. Peeling away down to the previous coat. Does it pull off with a tape test? (cut an "X" in the paint with a razor, rub the tape down over the "x" and then pull it off sharply)

In the first case above, cheap poorly bound builder's flat paints will erode away when rubbed because the resin content is very low as a cost savings measure.

In the second case, you may have poor adhesion (for a number of reasons), which can be determined with further information.
 
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Old 02-08-09, 02:40 PM
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Slatz, the paint appears to be eroding off the wall, per your definition. I won't be over to the house for a few days to perform your tape test, but I'm fairly certain it's not peeling off.

Is there any way to fix the problem?
 
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Old 02-08-09, 10:23 PM
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All you need to do with a poorly bound paint is to seal it.

You can use any of Zinsser's (there are also other good brands) universal primers to seal the paint. Then recoat with a high quality paint.
 
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Old 02-09-09, 09:37 AM
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For this paint, I'm not sure even priming is necessary. As long as it is adhering dry, just a topcoat of real paint should do the trick.

SirWired
 
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Old 02-09-09, 07:25 PM
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That is true.

The way I would handle this is I would prime and paint if I were using a flat finish paint.

If I were using an eggshell or sheen paint, I would probably just double coat with the paint.
 
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Old 02-09-09, 09:16 PM
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Use the Gardz!

The paint that's on now (contractor PPG) needs to be stabilized to be considered a "sound, paintable" surface.

If it rubs off THAT easy, it has to be stabilized with Gardz/similiar primer. Doesn't matter what sheen goes over top.

If using an Eggshell or higher, priming becomes even MORE important! The sheen will vary too much if you don't prime again over that crappy flat.

Faron
 
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Old 02-11-09, 07:19 PM
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Actually, you don't have to use Gardz - a clear primer, to seal a poorly bound flat paint. Pigmented universal primers are used to do this every day, and in fact, are made for that very purpose. A pigmented coating can be tinted to match the finish paint, and it will be easier to recoat than a clear coat like Gardz.

Suitable pigmented universal primers would include any of Zinsser's universal primers (123 Bullseye, Coverstain, or BIN) or Xim's UMA or 400 white.

The extra vehicle from a satin or semi gloss sheen paint will in fact soak into the previous paint and seal it. This is why you would not need to prime if using a sheen paint. You would need to apply two coats for good sheen uniformity (since some of the vehicle from the first coat will soak into the previous paint leaving the first coat uneven in sheen). The second coat will be uniform in sheen.

You are painting over a builder’s flat - not crumbling asbestos siding, or heavily chalked exterior paint. The answers given here are assuming that it is not a defective batch of paint, or that the previous painter tampered with the product (by over thinning or not priming the drywall before painting etc...).

You can still use a universal primer under a coat of sheen paint if you'd like, it is simply easier to double coat with the satin or semi gloss paint.

There is not a lot of extra vehicle in a flat paint, they don't make for good sealers for that reason, which is why you should prime first before painting in that case. You could paint over a builder's flat with one or two coats of a flat paint and still have a fairly porous painted surface.

One Further Note: As previously stated, builder's flats are not defective paints. They are just poorly bound and have little or no washability. They will break down if rubbed with a rag etc...

Builder's flat paints are not irresponsible products made by clueless negligent companies. The same companies that make the premium paints we all use and tout loudly (Benjamin Moore, Sherwin Williams etc......) all make builder's flat paints for new construction application. They serve the purpose that they are intended for: primarily - good touch up and good dry hide in an economically priced product.

There is no "WARNING" on the label of their (SW, BM or anyone else‘s) builder's flat products stating they must be coated with a clear sealer to stabilize them before re-coating.
 

Last edited by Slatz; 02-11-09 at 08:28 PM.
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Old 03-04-09, 10:45 AM
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Paint coming off

Good informative post, Slatz.

It seems that, other than in the hallway, OP said nothing about any prep, let alone primer/sealer.

OP: Can you apprise us of your ultimate decision and the outcome? Thanks. And good luck.

As an aside on the Zinsser 123 Bullseye primer, I'd ventilate painting area with a big powerful rotating fan and open the windows. Zinsser's Material Safety Data Sheet on this primer (Paints, Primers, Wall Covering Products, Removers, Mildew Prevention) shows the product is at or below the southern California maximum limit for volatile organic compounds in paint (equal to or less than 100 grams per liter -- even more stringent than the EPA's) but it's still too pungent for me. And the Home Depot sales associate told me the 123 made her sick when she used it at a friend's one weekend. Well, it does have ethylene glycol. Then I'd coat with at least one coat of low- or zero-VOC finish paint, though I'm not sure this will much mitigate the out-gassing and vaporization of the primer underneath.

Plse forgive -- this is my 2d day, and 2d post, so maybe this latter part shd have been posted elsewhere.
 
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