Nestor Kelebay show us thy way.


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Old 09-29-00, 08:44 PM
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Nestor, How do you paint your house? Tell us the many ways.....
 
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Old 09-30-00, 12:52 AM
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JDX:

When I decide to paint my house, the first thing I do is choose a quality paint to use...

The thing that most people don't realize is that ALL of the acrylic monomers used in the production of acrylic floor finishes and acrylic paints comes from only two companies; the S. C. Johnson Wax Company and Rohm and Haas Inc. So, if a paint salesman tells you that one paint is more durable than another, more flexible than another, more UV resistant than another, or more whatever than another, it is only because of the KINDS of acrylic or vinyl acrylic monomers used in each paint, not the quality of the chemicals that went into that gallon of paint. I think the same thing is true of the pigments used in every brand of paint, but I'm not sure on this point.

Every paint, regardless of whether it's alkyd (oil based) or latex/acrylic (water based) will consist of four basic components:

1.) the "Carrier" or "Vehicle - This is the water in latex paints and solvent in oil based paint that evaporates to leave a dry film of pigment, binder and additives on the wall.

2.) the "Pigments" - Pigments are finely ground natural and synthetic solids that give the paint it's colour.
In case you want to know more: The most common WHITE pigment is titanium dioxide. Titanium dioxide is a powder that is white as Manitoba snow, opaque as aluminum foil and as expensive as Manhattan real estate. Because of it's high cost, less expensive paints often use white clays like talc, chaulk and finely ground silica to replace the more expensive TiO2. However, these "extenders" (so called because they improve hide without adding much cost) don't hide as well as titanium dioxide and aren't pure white so they alter the colour of the base.

3.) the Binder - The binders are the component of the paint that crosslinks as the paint cures to form the cohesive film on the wall. This film traps the pigment inside it as it forms, resulting in the coloured film we call "paint". Latex paints use acrylic and vinyl acrylic monomers as the binder. Oil based paints use "alkyds" as the binder. Alkyds are the name of a group of chemical compounds made from combining vegetable oils like soy bean oil with synthetic resins like acrylics.
In case you want to know more: Acrylic paints and floor finishes all come to us courtesy of the acrylic acid molecule. Acrylic acid is perfectly content to stay dissolved in water forever. However, when that water evaporates, the acrylic acid molecule will form chemical bonds with other acrylic acid molecules that were in the water (called "crosslinking") to form one big molecule that's not soluble in water anymore because it's too big. It's an irreversible process. Once the acrylic acid monomers crosslink, they form chemical bonds between them, and washing the painted wall with water will not cause the acrylic acid molecules to dissolve back into the water. Same with acrylic floor "wax".

4.) the additives - Additives used in paint include mildewcides and glycols to prevent mildew from growing inside a partially used can and preventing the paint from freezing if it's accidentally left in your car's trunk overnight. There is also a class of chemicals called "rheology modifiers" that enhance the way the paint spreads and flattens out leaving (supposedly) no brush strokes when it dries. (I think the paint I always buy doesn't have any of this stuff.)


Now...

THE VERY FIRST THING to look at when trying to decide how good a paint is is the PERCENTAGE OF SOLIDS in the paint, and this can be gotten from the product data sheet that the manufacturer will provide for each paint he produces. "Solids" are anything that's left behind after the paint dries, and include the pigment, the binder and some of the additives. Solids content in paint will vary from 25 to 45 percent based on volume, so if you apply equal thickness of good and poor quality paint, the good paint will dry to almost twice as thick a film as a poor quality paint. I don't care what anybody says, all things being equal, the thicker the coat of paint, the more that coat will hide the colour of the underlying paint, the more scrubbing it will take to remove it and the more it will protect the underlying wood (or whatever) from the sun (or whatever). That's the first thing.

THE SECOND THING to look at in trying to decide how good a paint is TITANIUM DIOXIDE CONTENT which will be specified on the "material data safety sheet" the manufacturer is required by law to provide to anyone who handles his paint who asks for it. Off white interior paints start out as a gallon of "white tint base". What makes this tint base white in colour is the titanium dioxide in it. Titanium dioxide is a perfectly white powder that gives a white paint it's ability to hide an underlying colour. A poor quality paint will have 2 pounds or less of titanium dioxide powder in each gallon. Very high quality paints will have 3 1/2 pounds or more. Titanium dioxide is expensive, and there's just no getting around that. Poor quality paints will use white clays and such things as finely ground silica to make their white tint base whiter. However none of these clays provides the hiding power of titanium dioxide. So the bottom line is, if you want high hide in a white or offwhite paint, you have to spend the bucks. The only alternative is to spend just as much buying two or three times as much cheap paint and putting two or three coats of cheap paint on "to save money". However, if you're painting over an off white wall with the same shade of off white, you would be "kinda dumb" to spend extra on a tint base with 3 1/2 pounds of titanium dioxide per gallon to "really hide that other colour".

The preceding discussion has been for white tint bases used for white and off-white paints. What happens if you want to paint your wall navy blue? Gallons of dark paint start out life as either a coloured tint base or a clear tint base, depending on what bases the paint manufacturer makes available to his retailers. If the manufacturer has a blue tint base, all the dark blues in his colour charts will call for that blue tint base as a starting point. However many manufacturers will only provide a clear tint base, and the idea is that you add lots and lots of blue colourant to that base to make it navy blue. For coloured and clear tint bases, it is the pigment in the base and the colourant that's added that provides the hiding power. You can't criticize a coloured or clear tint base for not having any titanium dioxide in it. If you had 3 1/2 pounds of titanium dioxide in a gallon and tried to tint it navy blue, the best you could hope for would be powder blue because of all the white powder in it. Remember that pigment in colourant is not a liquid that would coat each grain of that powder, but a finely ground solid itself, so the colour you get is a mixture of the two powders.

THE THIRD THING to look at is the PIGMENT VOLUME CONTENT of the solids, and this one deserves some explanation because people will say "hey, you're not talking about quality here, you're talking about gloss, and that's just a matter of personal preferance". Pigment volume content is the percent by volume that the pigment occupies of the final film the paint dries to. The more pigment, the greater the hiding power regardless of whether that pigment was titanium dioxide or white clays in the tint base or colourant that was added to the gallon. The binder in the paint dries clear to transluscent. Pigment volume content will vary from 10 percent in a high gloss paint to 75 percent in a flat paint.
It's true, what we're talking about here is gloss, but the fact is that the purpose of painting is to provide a coloured protective coating, and it is the acrylic binders that provide the protection, whereas the pigments only provide the colour. So, given this definition, the best paint is the one that can form the most protective film while still colouring the substrate completely. That is to say, the best paint is
 
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Old 09-30-00, 12:52 AM
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Old 09-30-00, 04:41 AM
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So in other words, spend an extra buck or two and use Benjamin Moore, Devoe, or Sherwin Williams. Why anyone would put the same junk on there wall that needs to be painted the same color is beyond me. However is it possible that you still insist on using that Kmart "paint"? Give me a brand that meets your specs..
 
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Old 09-30-00, 05:11 AM
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I have many years experience in painting and chemical coatings, but I am no chemical profesor.

I do know this, when asking the advise of paint contractors, be dang sure they are a reputable company, everyone and there dog claims to be able to paint (When hiring I go through about 10 or more people before finding 1 good painter) And I have in the past worked for painters that would "prime" all the woodwork in a house with the wall paint as they sprayed, then brush the oil on the woodwork, I refused and quit (did NOT want my name on it) Point being, make sure you know the painter before taking advise, or you may get the wrong answer. These are the people that give Brothers of the brush a bad name.
 
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Old 09-30-00, 06:54 AM
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I know what you guys mean. The bottom line is that in reality the impression of "quality" you get comes just from how much you LIKE using the paint and how good a job it seems to do.

In my own case, when I paint interiors I don't use a brush hardly at all. Instead, I do almost all of the cutting in with a piece of sheet metal. I bend the sheet metal slightly into the corner between the wall and ceiling and paint up to it with a 3 inch roller. I do the cutting in this way, allow the paint to dry, then go back the next day and fill in all the walls with a 10 inch roller screwed on to the end of a short pole (the kind you normally see on a window cleaning squeegee at filling stations). Once the paint has dried, I look for a "band" around the outside edge of the wall where the colour is denser than in the middle. If I see any band around the edge, then I know that the one coat over most of wall isn't hiding as well as the two coats around the perimeter where the paint from the 3 and 10 inch rollers overlapped. In that case I know I'm not getting complete hide with one coat and I need a higher hide paint. With that higher hide paint I don't see any band around the perimeter because one coat hides completely and there's no benefit in having two.

Also, from a practical point of view, one of the most important things I look for in a good quality paint is spatter off the roller. The less spatter off the roller, the less you have to be careful about spreading drop cloths on the floor as you go. I still spread the drop cloths, but I've found that the Pratt & Lambert's Accolade line of paints is the lowest spatter of any I've tried. But if the truth be known, I haven't tried the Sherwin Williams or Benjamin Moore top line paints, and they don't sell Devoe paint here in Winnipeg.

Another thing that helps me form an opinion on a paint is how well it washes out of the brush or roller. I've used CIL paint for years which is the sister company of Glidden and from what I understand, both companies are owned by a company called ICI Ltd. so their paints should be much the same. The Pratt & Lambert Accolade Velvet I use on ceilings and Accolade Satin I use on walls both wash out of the roller or brush much easier and faster than the CIL paints I've used, so that's also something I look for when assessing paint quality.

If you can get complete hide of another colour in a single coat that dries glossy enough to make for an easy to clean wall, if the paint doesn't leave tiny spatter drops all over your hand and the floor when you roll it, and if it washes out of the roller quickly and easily, these are really the three things I look for in a quality paint when painting. After that, how easy it is to clean and the fact that it doesn't do anything stupid like start peeling off the wall, are the other things that form my opinion on how good the paint is.

I've been using the Pratt & Lambert Accolade line of paints for the past 2 years or so, and my impression is that it's the best paint I've used so far. Pratt & Lambert has both a high hide and ordinary hide base for each of their Accolade paints, so you have to be careful to get the high hide base if you're changing colours. Like most people, the only reason I haven't tried Sherwin Williams or Benjamin Moore's top line paints is because I've been satisfied with the results I'm getting and haven't had a reason to shop around.
 
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Old 09-30-00, 10:01 AM
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It does make a difference careing for the quality of your job, if you don't care, you can use the best paint in the world and still will look like crap. As far as sheilds go, the only time I use a sheild is when spraying, I can get better results cutting in by hand with a good brush, but hey, do whats best for you.( I am not sure what you mean by screwing a roller on a pole, I use rolling poles) When painting a different color, or new walls, I always put 2 coats and cut in both times(3 including primer on new walls) this is especially nesasary when going from a flat finish to a sheen(eggshell, semigloss, etc) to get the proper sheen it must be painted twice, I don't care if the paint company claims one coat coverage.

When rolling, I am rolling quikly, the paint is going to send out little droplets no matter the brand, I also use a quality lambskin and that releases the paint better than synthetic by far,which also make for easier clean-up, I get frustrated with the synthetic rollers because they take in a ton of paint and release little and take forever to clean, and I clean them until I can squeeze only clear water out. Use a good lambskin, you will get better coverage and the paint will clean up easily and it will send out little dropplets of paint unless you roll very slow, even if it is block filler your useing .

As far as the paints I use, I am usually stuck with what the specs call for, and this is becuase a paint rep has convince the arcitect to use his paint, but when refering paint or when asked who makes the best, I am going to stand by Sherwin Wiliams and Ben. Moore. Try some S.W. Promar 200 latex on your next interior wall job, I feel you will agree.

Happy Painting

 
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Old 09-30-00, 07:04 PM
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Nestor, You paint with a piece of sheet metal? Ok, as hard as is to believe you and seeing some of your "signs" of a good paint, I do believe you would be the one to "paint" with sheet metal. I think I'll go throw out all my brushes and use sheet metal. Explain to me the method again.
 
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Old 09-30-00, 09:47 PM
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Chipfo and JDX:

I agree that some of what I do is a bit unconventional. I own a small apartment block, so I've had to do a lot of interior painting over the years and have come up with ways of doing things that work well for me.

I have heard many good things about Sherwin Williams Superpaint, and was going to try it on my next suite. When I paint with Pratt & Lambert Accolade Satin, I use a Nour 10 millimeter (3/8 inch) nap roller and that roller goes as fast as I feel like rolling, and yet there is NO spatter. Not on my hands, and not on the floor. I still use a drop cloth because often the roller will drip before I get it on the wall if I load it up too much. I'm thinking of trying one gallon of Benjamin Moore's top of the line paint and one gallon of Sherwin Williams on my next suite, but I'm not sure if it'll be their Superpaint or the ProMar 200. Sherwin Williams has a distributor in Winnipeg, and I'll ask for his advice as well.

So far as cleaning goes, I usually wash out my rollers with one of those plastic tools that you screw onto the end of a laundry tub faucet spout, and clean it until the water runs clear. Then I throw the roller in a bucket of water for a few hours until the water is clowdy again as the remaining paint in it dissolves. Then I have an old 3" roller frame that I've mounted onto a 6 inch long 1/4 inch bolt that I stick in an electric drill and spin dry the roller sleeve inside a bucket.

So far as the edging goes, I have a piece of sheet metal about 16 inches long and 6 inches wide that I have riveted a metal handle to. I put two widths of painter's masking tape on the front face of it and one width on the back face. I hold it in the corner and spread the paint with the newly loaded roller about 2 or 3 inches away from the corner for about 4 or 5 feet, then spread the paint UP TO the sheet metal in the corner. If you start with the fully loaded roller right at the metal in the corner, the paint will be squeezed under the metal. This way you can paint right up to the metal and stop. If the roller won't get right into the corner, you slide the sleeve out about 1/16" on the frame so it sticks out past the end of the roller frame slightly. When the painter's tape gets all mucked up with partially dried paint, I just replace it with new tape. This works well for me, but I guess the other side of the coin is that if someone doesn't like my paint job, they don't have to rent the suite, so I wouldn't hear any complaints about it anyway. However, from what I can see, doing it this way isn't any worse a job than your average person is going to do with a brush.

So far as the pole I use goes, I only use a 5 foot long pole when I'm painting a ceiling. For walls, I just use a short pole of the kind you normally see on a windshield squeegee at a filling station. It's plenty long enough to reach both the top and bottom of the wall, and it's easy to use in the corridors where you don't have room for a long handle.

I realize that some of these things are a bit different, but I use them because they work well for me, and that's what each of us ends up doing regardless of what other people do.

Anyhow, pleased to have made you guys acquaintance.
 
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Old 10-01-00, 06:08 AM
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I get the pole now, when I first read your post I picture you attaching the roller with a screw (without the frame), when in fact you are useing a small rolling pole. I have rolling poles from 1' to about 12 or 14' extended.

It sounds as if you have been using your method for a while now, if it works for you go for it. I have never used those cleaning devises I have seen, but as long as you are cleaning them well, that is the important thing if you plan to reuse them(it sounds as if you are cleaning them well)

Although everone has there own style, most good pro painters basically paint the same way, just varying a little with technics and tricks of the trade, there is a certain procedure we follow and that procedure becomes law, it is nesasary for the quikest way to do the job right. When posting or recomending the style you have above, you have to expect a little slack from any pro's that my read or hear, heck we make fun of each others technics if they are not the same as ours. Its like I tell my friends "I can tell you my way of doing it, but do what works for you." (employee's are different, they have to do it my way) Heck, my own aunt uses and artist brush to cut in with, takes hours, but it works for her. I do not expect the non-painter or DIYer to do everything as a painter does, for one the skill is not there, as a matter of fact new "less experienced" employee's start in closets, cleaning up, running plastic and drop cloths for sometimes months before I let them loose in an entry or open area, and then they are watched carefully.

No offence intended in any of my posts, I am always happy to make new aquaintances. Happy Painting

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BTW, When I stated above to my friends "Do what works for you" that does not include proper preperation, that is something I will insist on. I know people that brush the entire exterior of there house, as long as they prep it right there is nothing wrong with that, just time consuming.

[This message has been edited by Chipfo (edited October 01, 2000).]
 
 

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