Why does everyone hate *some paint brands*?


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Old 04-12-09, 10:12 PM
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Why does everyone hate *some paint brands*?

I found this site by googling some information about the new BM paint natura, and saw an old thread where people were talking pretty negatively about Behr paint in comparison to BM and SW.

Can someone please explain this to me?

I've been painting for over 7 years, and I do it professionally on the side as well. Not only do I use paints from all 3 of these brands often, but I know several reps from each brand, and know quite a bit about the chemistry of each of these brands.

First off, their all premium paints. And in this particular situation it isn't a matter of "You get what you pay for". Lowe's valspar is even a premium paint, although I've only used it once or twice.

What do you guys not like about it? Consumer reports has rated Behr's Premium Plus the number 1 interior paint 5 out of the past 6 years.

You guys all talk about the price like Behr is so cheap so it must be trash. Home Depot buys Behr paint at about $17 a gallon and has a 30% mark up. Most ace's have buy BM paints for the same price but have a 60% mark up. So your paying more due to their markup.

Additionally, Behr and BM are both rated number 1 in consistency of quality. A lot of times, a gallon of SW paint bought from one store will be different than one bought at another store. They are notorious for not having consistency in their paint. Behr & BM both have 97% consistency ratings, so their toe to toe in that aspect.

In terms of coverage, they are both parallel. And in terms of painting darker colors, I've painted dark blues in one coat with a light touch up coat with Behr. Where as I've always needed 2 coats with BM.

ALSO! Behr has more titanium dioxide in each gallon than BM!

I just don't understand where you all are getting this perception that Behr is cheap bad paint. On scale of 1 to 10, Behr and BM both rank up at 10s on many sites, not including Consumer Reports. You must not have actually painted with it. It goes on just as smooth as BM. Chemically, they both wont spread thinner than 3MM thick. Their the same thing in terms of viscosity.

Don't get me wrong, I love BM paint. But for you to all make these false accusations about it to potential DIYers who want to save some money isn't fair. The only time I'll without a doubt choose BM over Behr is when I need samples or large quantities, because they always have it in stock, where as home depot gets raided by contractors.

And wait until you guys see this new Behr Premium Plus ULTRA. I was at a home depot the other day, and its the new self priming stuff. The Behr rep showed me, IN FRONT OF MY FACE. Deep red.. did it in 2 coats. Aura cant even do that. He even compared it to the regular behr stuff so I know its not fake. It may already be at some Home Depots, but this stuff isn't anywhere as inexpensive. I think its gonna be like 35 dollars per gallon.

In my personal opinion, Behr is equal if not better than BM in nearly every aspect. And they are both better than SW.
 

Last edited by GregH; 04-27-09 at 05:14 AM.
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Old 04-12-09, 10:20 PM
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and also, someone had mentioned that it is very hard to collect a reimbursement on the paint with lifetime warranty.

i've done it 3 times with SW, once with BM, once with Behr and once with Ralph Lauren. Went fine each time with each brand. very few questions asked, and the longest it took for me to get my money back was 3 weeks.

so whoever said that or thinks that, obviously has tried to do it before.

--

i also want to stress that i don't care which paint you prefer, but when these uninformed DIYers are asking for help, you should give more factual information, instead of bias. I know a lot of you old school painters ONLY use BM or SW and aren't open to new brands, but thats not fair to new DIYers who are asking for your help.

--

WOW again, i was just reading the other thread where you were knocking CR. you guys must be crazy! the other year they posted video and pics of the tests. And they DONT take price into consideration, so its not a matter of how inexpensive the paint is. You guys obviously didn't read any of the reports. I saw someone say it took them 4 coats of Behr to do what they did in 2 coats of BM. You must be out your mind. I've done pastel & medium colors in one coat with both brands without priming over white walls. You guys are just making stuff up at this point. Anyone who says Behr isn't as thick as BM is full out lying. They both go on 3MM thick. this comes straight from the federal agencies that do testing annually on the toxicity of the paint to ensure it meets VOC regulations.
 

Last edited by SPS45; 04-12-09 at 10:36 PM.
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Old 04-13-09, 09:47 PM
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The Behr debate...

I hate to dive into THIS wormhole, but here goes!!!

Our store used to have Behr (independant store line). Home Depot bought the "Behr" NAME/marketing-rights to it ~ 3yrs. ago.
* Independant stores had the IDENTICAL paint as HD, but had different wrappers. Identical paint...different label-paper.
* We could tint HD's formula's, and they could tint the independant store's formula's.
* Same paint...2 different color-catalogues.
* Then...after the HD "Brand buyout", only the HD Behr could say "Behr" on it, so Behr/Masterchem gathered-up all the independant store's paint, and brought in a substitute line called "Expressions Gallery". It WAS called "Behr Expressions".
* It used to be 4 tint-bases, but the substitute line (Exp.-Gallery) now only had 3. White & Ultra-deep bases still were the same as HD, but the middle-two bases were combined.

>>> IMO...Behr is a decent paint.
* As good as the upper BM-lines...No way.

We eventually dumped the Behr line we had, and went with a MUCH more exclusive/better line called C2.
* C2 Premium avg's in the low-to-mid $40's/gal.
* Due to the C2 Investor/Store ownership structure, this line will never get dragged out to a "Big-box" store, and become just another "pedestrian" brand of paint.
* This stuff competes at the top of the market ranges.
* Instead of being "just another ACE with BM" as the premium line, we went with C2.

>>> We've also got ACE-Royal and Ralph-Lauren Interior.
* ACE has made their own paint in Chicago for 25 years.
* ACE avg's low-to-mid $20's/gal.
* Ralph-Lauren is in the $30's/gal.

>>> Titanium-Dioxide amounts...
* How can you state Behr has more than BM/gal.?
* The amounts vary greatly in each tint-base and product line.
* Also, there are MANY different grind-qualities, and other blends of TI02. Resin-blends, binder-types, and low-level ingredients make a big difference in "hide" as well.

>>> I'm very curious though...
How in the world do you get away with THREE paint-replacement claims?!?!?
* We've NEVER had that kind of problem...and we sell a LOT of paint...
* Your credibility seems a little suspect on that point.
* On what grounds/factors were you claiming replacement?

Faron
 
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Old 04-14-09, 05:06 AM
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I'm also curious about the number warranty claims. I've had contact with a small number of diyer or small time contractors that were not able to make good on the paint's warranty. The reason was always the same - not applied/prepped correctly.
Personally I've never made a warranty claim on paint but have worked for 2 different outfits that did. The 1st was in the early 70's, I sprayed an oil primer on the exterior of a large 2 story house on a friday, we went back on monday to find the primer more than tacky. Pittsburg paint flew 2 techs in who examined the job and leftover primer and then delivered [a week later] an unlabled coating to spray over the primer. The other outfit did a large volume of work [2000+ gal per week average] and whenever we had any issues with the paint, they just gave us more.

I've not used a lot of Behr paint but when I had to [customer supplied] I wasn't thrilled with the way it applied or covered. I knew SWP had a coating for the job that would have done better and wouldn't have increased the cost of the job [with my pricing] SWP, BM and others also have a cheap line of paint that I also wouldn't recomend.

I don't understand why a painting contractor would buy much paint from a big box paint dept. They usually don't discount the coating prices for contractors, rarely have knowledgable help and often aren't consistent with their mixing [or matching] of paint.
 
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Old 04-14-09, 06:20 AM
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I don't Behr is that bad, although as marksr mentioned, I don't buy from a big box paint store. It's Glidden I don't like. If I stop for lunch, I have 2 different colors. It happened to me twice. When consumer reports gave them a good rating, I closed the magazine. I bought my first VCR based on them too. That was another mistake. Now that I can type into Google "user reviews" for any product in the world, why would I even look at Consumer Reports or any magazine? I want opinions from everyday people who can say whatever they feel about a porduct, good or bad.
 
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Old 04-18-09, 08:54 PM
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I am now a firm believer that Behr paint is rubbish.

I am now on the third coat ....bedroom walls are plaster and previously painted with SW. Since I was going with a lighter color I primed the walls. Yes, I used the correct primer.

I knew I was in trouble the minute I poured the paint into my pan. It was like soup. Using the roller...I wound up with more paint on the drop cloth and me than the walls. Picked up the brush and got to work.

After first coat dried, it looked like I had glazed the wall.

After second coat dried, it looked like I had glazed the wall for a second time.

Half of the third coat is now drying and still looks like garbage.
I'm now out of paint.

I'll finish tomorrow. Reprime.....and I'll make the 40 mile rt trip to SW.

I've been painting the interiors and exteriors of my homes and rental properties for 40 years. I've used just about every paint brand out there.

Never have I used such a miserable interior paint.

What should have taken me 2 hrs at the most, turned out to be an all day project... and still incomplete.

Lesson learned.
 
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Old 04-19-09, 05:26 AM
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You shouldn't need to reprime the walls. The SWP should go over the behr with no problems.
I wonder if the behr paint was tinted using the right base

almost forgot
welcome to the forums!
 
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Old 04-19-09, 05:41 AM
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That's the "other" problem with Behr.It's sold at a business that does not train the people who sell it well enough to give good service and have adequate knowledge.

Behr could be the best paint on the market but if it was still sold by a big box with big box mentality employees you'd be having regular issues with mistints,wrong bases,and most of all incorrect information and apathetic attitudes.

Oh the stories I could tell.....
 
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Old 04-19-09, 05:54 AM
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Lets face it, if it didn't come in "orange" no one would hate it, most everyone would be ambivalent.
 
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Old 04-19-09, 06:11 AM
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Ok let me try again - cotton pickin' dial up ate my response

Quality coatings are quality coatings, no m atter who sells them. Cheap coatings are cheap no matter where they come from. I know and have used a lot of SWP coatings. While most of their paints are top notch, they [like most manufactures] have a line of paints that aren't fit to be used. The trouble with big box depts is they tend to stock coatings based soley on price and as noted by spdavid; they usually have poorly trained help.
 
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Old 04-19-09, 08:57 AM
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I'm the guy they come to after they've been to a big box,orange or otherwise.I'm the guy that hears the stories about the product and the help.

Those stories are far more bad than good.People have told me things they were told by paint dept employees that were unbelieveable.They have also told me of employees that obviously didn't care and just wanted their 9 bucks an hour.

They told me about paint that didn't cover,failed quickly,was mixed wrong or did not come out to match the chip,etc.

Nobody is perfect.the difference is how often there's a problem and more importantly how that problem is addressed.

At big box stores generally the employees do one of two things:leave it up to the customer to determine which paint is the product they need and will perform as needed or they steer customers to something for one reason or another that has nothing to do with the customers needs.

They often tell customers what they want to hear."Yes you can paint a vinyl tile floor with oil based enamel for metal" is one of my favs.

If these businesses did not have a long proven track record of this stuff I'd be as complimentary as anyone...but I'm the guy that hears the stories so I can't.
 
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Old 04-19-09, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by marksr View Post
You shouldn't need to reprime the walls. The SWP should go over the behr with no problems.
I wonder if the behr paint was tinted using the right base

almost forgot
welcome to the forums!
The walls looked so bad - glazed donut is the best description I can think of, I wasn't taking any chances.

My new SWP cans are sitting in the basement right now. It'll have to wait for next weekend though.
 
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Old 04-19-09, 05:55 PM
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I don't think it's been said but professional painters can use any paint, easy to apply or not. Behr much like Hancock and Pratt and Lambert is very good paint but not the easiest to apply for the home owner. Ben Moore paint is specifically formulated to be easy to apply for both pro and DIYers. As stated Sherwin Williams formulates to a variety of markets with mixed results. I guess as pros, we've all used what the customer has specified, easy or hard, but when I have my choice, I pick the easiest to use paint, Ben Moore, and for most lines it is less expensive that Behr, Hancock, or Pratt, and every bit as good. I recommend it to everyone. The EcoSpec line and Satin Impervo have long been industry, bests.

Billy
 
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Old 04-19-09, 06:46 PM
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Any Behr paint is better than Benjamin Moore Pearl. I painted an office with 4,000 sq feet of wall space with it. It looked like an iridescent suit, for those of you who remember the 60s. The owner & I went back to the paint store. I said to myself, I bet he's going to try to sell us a different roller. Sure enough, that's what he did. Then I called Benjamin Moore's customer service. They told me, "What you see is what you get with Pearl". Great answer after we rolled 16 gallons or so of garbage.

That wasn't my first encounter with Pearl. I was working for another painter at the time. That job wasn't right either.

Not only that but I would use Behr before any Glidden.
 
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Old 04-20-09, 04:23 AM
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"I don't think it's been said but professional painters can use any paint, easy to apply or not"

True but some paints cover better than others and some coatings just give a better looking job than their cheaper counterpart.



"Not only that but I would use Behr before any Glidden"

Glidden just like most good paint manufactures has both quality and cheap coatings. While I've used more SWP than most any other brand, glidden has coatings that are just as good. IMO the big box stores have hurt glidden's reputation because they only stock glidden's cheapest paints.

I've used very little of behr's paints although I've went over a number of jobs that were previously painted with behr. I've heard that behr had some good coatings until they became exclusively a HD product line. The problem with big box paint depts is they tend to mostly carry the cheapest paint lines.
 
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Old 04-20-09, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by marksr View Post
"I don't think it's been said but professional painters can use any paint, easy to apply or not"

True but some paints cover better than others and some coatings just give a better looking job than their cheaper counterpart.



"Not only that but I would use Behr before any Glidden"

Glidden just like most good paint manufactures has both quality and cheap coatings. While I've used more SWP than most any other brand, glidden has coatings that are just as good. IMO the big box stores have hurt glidden's reputation because they only stock glidden's cheapest paints.

I've used very little of behr's paints although I've went over a number of jobs that were previously painted with behr. I've heard that behr had some good coatings until they became exclusively a HD product line. The problem with big box paint depts is they tend to mostly carry the cheapest paint lines.
Originally Posted by Pulpo View Post
Any Behr paint is better than Benjamin Moore Pearl. I painted an office with 4,000 sq feet of wall space with it. It looked like an iridescent suit, for those of you who remember the 60s. The owner & I went back to the paint store. I said to myself, I bet he's going to try to sell us a different roller. Sure enough, that's what he did. Then I called Benjamin Moore's customer service. They told me, "What you see is what you get with Pearl". Great answer after we rolled 16 gallons or so of garbage.

That wasn't my first encounter with Pearl. I was working for another painter at the time. That job wasn't right either.

Not only that but I would use Behr before any Glidden.
Not sure what you are both getting at here, but you can't always blame the paint for poor coverage. Pearl is a fair product, long before you found out that your 4,000 square feet wasn't turning out well, you should have made a change in process or product. In the previous "dark blue to pink" thread, the correct answer was to undercoat the dark blue with two coats of white, then an undercoat tinted a touch darker than the finish pink, and then the finish pink. Using poor preparatory or application practices and then complaining because the paint doesn't cover...is kind of sad.
 

Last edited by Bigg_Billy; 04-20-09 at 02:37 PM.
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Old 04-20-09, 03:54 PM
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Wait a minute Bigg_Billy. You said I should have changed paint in the middle of my 4,000 sq ft job? Guess what. I was only working with construction lighting. When the fluorescent lighting was installed, it was different game. What do think of that?
 
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Old 04-21-09, 02:12 PM
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Well as you probably know, people, customers tend to forget the circumstances that go on during the course of the job, and only care about the finish product. The fact the lighting may not have been good during the project isn't going to hold up now. I once had a plasterer complain that while he was doing his work, the "room was too hot." As the professional he should have controlled his work enviroment or not done the job, because as the plaster is falling from the ceiling, no one is going to pay him until it is done right. My point about the paint simply was, if the walls were prepared properly, and undercoated properly, the wall product would have been just fine. We all know on big jobs, coats are cut. Latex satins and eggshells (Pearl) isn't the product to use in that circumstance. Perhaps flats would have been. On most construction jobs where lighting is a problem, sub-contractors have to supply their own lighting, they are in the end responsible for their finish product.

Billy
 

Last edited by Bigg_Billy; 04-21-09 at 03:05 PM.
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Old 04-21-09, 03:49 PM
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I think eggshell would have been fine on that job. You know that most flats aren't washable & the real kicker was that the owner's wife picked the finish. I was never consulted.
 
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Old 04-25-09, 12:08 AM
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It seems like you guys have your mind made up, and aren't willing to change. Moore's Regal and Behr's Premium Plus line are comparable brands, the issue is, the apply differently. I've come to learn that the reason so many painters dislike behr is because they are applying it the way they would apply regal. It specifically says on the can that if you try and force a smooth coat of the premium plus, it will come out streaky.

Its just as thick, but it takes less rolling with the premium plus. It comes out just as smooth, but it takes longer to dry and settle. Don't get me wrong, I love Regal as well. But if you are painting Behr the same way you paint regal, you are applying it wrong, therefore have used it incorrectly.

Behr is not thin paint at all for the guy who said it went on like glaze. You either dont know what you are talking about, or are lying.

I will give you the fact that HD messes up paint quite often. I was just there today and a guy messed up two of my gallons. I've found there are good HDs and really bad HDs. Sometimes I asked questions I know the answers for to the sales people to see if they know what they are talking about, and then I have them mix the paint. But I wont hesitate to drive to another HD if I'm getting poor service. A lot of pro painters work at HD for the benefits, and those are the guys that mix it right every time.

In response to the warranty refunds, I know reps with nearly each company. They told me exactly what to say and just to stay firm. Worked every time except once to my recollection. I was on the phone for a while, but from what I remember it went much smoother than I expected. Quality control is important to a lot of these brands, but if they suspect joe schmoe was trying to paint his place and didn't know what he was doing, they arent going to give you the refund. What I've noticed is, sometimes they'll offer to replace the paint, and you have to let them know you simply wont accept anything other than your money back.

And for the guy who was talking about the history of Behr, I'm very knowledgeable on the history of Behr, especially before they made paint and just did stains. I know about the base systems, i know about the legacy colors, i know about how paint is made. They will never tell you the true formulas, but Behr DEFINITELY has more titanium dioxide than any SW line, and more than any BM line except the Aura (to my knowledge). SW will even tell you this. Their priority isn't the brightest white, thats not what they are after. Behr has even increased the quality and lowered the VOCs in the Premium plus since the original formula, so the big box mentality hasn't changed anything. HD has something like a 30% mark-up on the paint, and not only that, but they just reduced the prices to adjust for the economy. Most places that sell regal have a 60% mark-up. So you aren't getting what you pay for.

And not only has Behr recently started a contractors discount through HD, but look at it this way. Behr eggshell is like $23 or something. Regal's eggshell varies by areas, but its about 38 here in chicago. if you are getting 20% off the regal, you are still paying $30. So who cares if behr isn't giving you a discount, you are paying less regardless. Not only that, their washable flat is something like $17, $3 less than its flat. So you are getting an enamel paint, cheaper than a flat, but its more washable. That is perfect for a DIY.

My whole issue is, you guys can use whatever you want, but don't lead on DIYs to believe that Behr isn't premium paint just because you don't know how to use it or aren't familiar with it. The only time I absolutely will not use behr is with the ceiling paint or their semi gloss. I can never get them to look good.

And on a side note, all glidden brands are terrible. they also make ralph lauren, and i hate that paint also. glidden has a new brand coming out to HD that is replacing its evermore line, i think its just called "glidden". the glidden reps are going nuts over it, but I'll believe it when i see it.
 
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Old 04-25-09, 06:31 AM
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I had already said in my first response that I didn't like Glidden either. Behr beats Glidden by a long shot. Since my last post, I ran into a woman I know. She was in Home Cheapo with 2 gallons of Glidden in her cart. I told not to buy it but she lives in a rental apartment & the all time low price of $7.50 per gallon was heaven sent.
 
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Old 04-25-09, 07:45 AM
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Nobody makes 60% on any paint anywhere.

I can buy the 30% figure but that's the upper limit of the margin on paint.

That doesn't include the cost of tint,often several dollars (darker tints can use as much as a full quart total of assorted tint in a gallon) per gallon,and of the labor to mix it.

Paint sales are designed to drive sales of sundries,and of other inventory including inventory unrelated to paint.

Sundries typically have a mark up of anywhere from double to sometime triple cost.The typical and accepted average profit margin in hardware or home improvement retail is 40%.

Paint stores have no higher margins as costs are the same or close to the same,competitive pressures limit pricing and contractor pricing lowers margins.

Don't try to tell me otherwise.I've been doing this for 30 years.
 
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Old 04-26-09, 11:31 PM
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You're getting a little tiresome SPS45...

You must be the only person in the country who actually knows all of the main companies TI02 levels then...!?!?

MANY companies have lowered VOC-levels in paint.
* Ralph-Lauren's paint has been low-voc for some time now, but curiously, they don't advertise it as such?!?!?
* Still...it's a premium ICI paint.
* I've used it...and we sell a LOT of it. More than the HD in town.
* It's PVS is only a smidgen lower than the levels in C2.
* Most of our customers and painters really like it.
* I wonder why YOU hate the RL paint???

> Behr still uses a colorant that ACE & RL stopped using a few yrs. ago. Do you know which one?
> There's an 800# I can call and get any HD/Behr or Independant-store Behr color formula.
> I doubt you knew about the "Re-branding" of the Independant-store label change, and the tint-base changes.
> As I stated in my earlier post, there are MANY different grinds/quality-levels of TI02. You could find out more at the Special4chem website.

Profit-margins...WOO-HOO! Now there's a good subject!
SPDavid speaks the truth.
* If a store didn't make 25%-30% on paint, it wouldn't be worth handling...
* We charge $3 more for the Neutral/Accent/Deep bases since they take soooo much more expensive colorant. Many stores do.
* Furniture & some clothing categories?!?!? Margins there are often over 100+%...have been for DECADES....
* It's VERY expensive "behind-the-scenes" in a paint dep't.
Paint costs DON'T go down...went up 3 times last year for ACE & others. Software & other updates aren't cheap!
Good auto-tinters START AT $10G's...and rapidly hit $20K.
ASK me how I know this!!!

Faron
 
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Old 04-27-09, 04:01 AM
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I'm going to close this thread. It's run it's course and no more needs to be said.
 
 

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