painting over GE silicon II

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Old 10-13-13, 02:44 AM
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painting over GE silicon II

in trying to repair cracks in a old weathered wood porch i used GE silicon II which i later found out is not paintable. is there any solution i can use to paint over this calk, or must i cut out all the calk and start over, a massive job.

any advice is appreciated
 
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Old 10-13-13, 03:45 AM
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Sadly, yes, the only way to get paint to adhere to the area is to remove the silicone and apply a caulk which states "paintable" on the tube. If you are worried about expansion and contraction, you may could use an elastomeric caulk such as Big Stretch.
 
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Old 10-13-13, 04:47 AM
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Not ideal, but you could apply a couple coats of pigmented shellac [like Zinnser's BIN] over the silicone caulk and then paint. Removing the silicone caulk is the only other option.
 
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Old 10-13-13, 06:21 AM
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In my experience, nothing will stick reliably to silicone including silicone.

Chandler, I used Big Stretch when I lived in Vancouver a few times. It was amazing, but I've never seen it again. They don't seem to sell it much in Canada except for in specialty stores. Boo.
 
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Old 10-13-13, 08:26 AM
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nothing will stick reliably to silicone including silicone.
How true... Does anyone know why this is still on the market?

If you are lucky the silicone will not have adhered very well to the work you did. I run across silicone quite often in repairs prior to my showing up. More often than not, I can get a hold of the bead of silicone and pull it off in one long continuous piece. Crossing fingers that yours will be just as easy to remove.
 
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Old 10-13-13, 09:45 AM
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How true... Does anyone know why this is still on the market?

If you are lucky the silicone will not have adhered very well to the work you did. I run across silicone quite often in repairs prior to my showing up. More often than not, I can get a hold of the bead of silicone and pull it off in one long continuous piece. Crossing fingers that yours will be just as easy to remove.
I asked this question of a friend of mine a while back who I consider to be the best GC and most knowledgeable I've ever known. I'm sure in certain situations it does perform better than latex based products, but that doesn't mean it has to be used everywhere in a bathroom. His response was a shrug of shoulders and basically said "it's what plumbers have always used."

A while back I was hired to paint a bathroom where the woman's husband used silicone on the joint between a shower surround and a painted wall. The gap was 1/8". It appeared he must have used the palm of his bloody hand to smooth it out (seriously, his bead was at least 1/2" on either side of the joint) and she wanted me to remove the silicone as it looked horrible. I told her this could prove very difficult, she said she understood and wanted me to try anyway.

After 4 hours, using every tool I owned that could assist in this venture (many), and two different types of silicone softeners I surrendered. I was at best removing 10%. Whatever brand of product he used it was incredibly adhered. I told her she should punish her hubby and make him take it off. She did. I never did hear how it turned out.
 
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Old 10-13-13, 09:47 AM
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my case is as bad as it gets, an old weathered wood porch where silicon was applied to all the larger splits and cracks. based on what i read my plan is to scrape out as much as possible, sand by hand, re calk with DAP paintable.
i will never be able to get 100%, would it be advisable to go over the area with zinsser BIN prior to primer?
 
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Old 10-13-13, 10:00 AM
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If you're going over it with BIN (which is a primer) I see no need to prime on top of that.

You used silicone on ALL the cracks on the old weathered porch? This Sir, will truly be a lesson learned the hard way and one you'll never forget.
 
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Old 10-13-13, 10:31 AM
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My tools for when I re-caulk a tub or shower and need to dig out all the old caulk are:

-Stiff Putty Knife
-Razor Scraper
-Utility Knife
-Hook Caulk Removal Tool (Workforce 3-in-1 Caulk Tool-CT31HD at The Home Depot)

If you scratch up the tub or the utility knife leaves black scrape lines, clean and polish with Soft Scrub with bleach on a dry towel.

Let us know how it works out.
 
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Old 10-13-13, 11:11 AM
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yes a lesson well learned!
although i make no excuses because it is my mistake i wish the makers of GE silicon II would specify NON PAINTABLE prominently on the tube rather in obscure microscopic lettering on the back.

today i will scrape and sand as best as i can, re-calk with DAP and tomorrow prime with zinsser triple thick peel stop. the areas in question are the foot/base areas of old wood porch pillars, not a huge area but ornate with detail which is what makes it painstaking.
 
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Old 10-13-13, 08:29 PM
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is the zinsser BIN recommended "equilivant to or better than" a regular outdoor primer for use on my old weathered porch project? i see the label recommends "exterior spot priming"

i got what i could off, any silicon remaining in cracks or voids i sanded over until the surrounding wood was down to bare
 
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Old 10-13-13, 10:00 PM
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At least on the Canadian labels, BIN isn't recommended for (I think it says) 'full surface' priming, but rather spot priming of knots, etc. From the looks of the silicone removal job you've done in the pic, I'd say you could just use something like Zinnser Bullseye 123 on the surfaces you're dealing with.

Be sure to give everything a good dusting with an older, larger, stiffer (not dried to a stick type object) paint brush prior to priming. From the looks of things, I personally wouldn't bother trying to spot prime. I'd just prime everything. There's too much bare wood obviously.

DAP Alex + would be my personal favourite latex caulking choice. Good dry time, minimal shrinkage.
 
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Old 10-14-13, 05:05 AM
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Pigmented shellac [BIN] isn't ideal for exterior work but does have it's uses like sealing troublesome knots and where there are extreme adhesion issues. I agree that it looks like you've done a good job of cleaning it up! I'd use an exterior oil base wood primer. If you find there are areas where the primer crawled [because of the silicone] I would the spot prime those areas with BIN.
 
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Old 10-14-13, 10:27 AM
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will proceed as advised, spot prime questionable areas with BIN.....
as far as primer goes the only OIL based i could find was the zinsser cover stain which specifies good for indoor and outdoor use.
it that a good product or do you guys like something better?

in theory the oil will be more durable, correct?
what about top-coating, if you use an oil primer MUST the top coat be oil or can it be latex also?

thanks
 
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Old 10-14-13, 10:35 AM
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Mark suggested an oil primer over everything, which would be very solid advice. My personal preference would be to use latex because it's just easier to use and cleanup at the end of the day (I hate cleaning oil brushes, I'm tired of it, I'm glad oil paint is on it's way out), then if you get any stains/knots bleeding through you can touch them up with an oil/shellac primer.

I really like Cover Stain, but it is a fast drying primer used mostly for sealing stains. You could certainly use that to seal any stains.

Primers prepare surfaces for painting. You can use latex OR oil paint over all of the primers that have been mentioned in this thread. Most people are going with latex these days as modern latex paints are outperforming oils. On top of that once oil is completely gone, you won't have to prime the whole surface to repaint with latex in the future. Never put latex paint over oil paint. Period.
 
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Old 10-14-13, 11:20 AM
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Oil primers tend to seal the substrate better than their latex counterpart, latex is generally preferred for the top coat - it generally holds up longer. I'm not as big on the new latex primers as Bill is but then, he's still young and I'm an old school painter. While Zinnser has a great primer line up, I generally use SWP's A-100 oil base wood primer on raw exterior wood ..... but I also have an account with and use a lot of SWP coatings
 
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Old 10-14-13, 01:00 PM
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thanks for all of the advice

i am still preparing the surface, sanding etc, and will be ready for primer soon.
to be absolutely sure could you please confirm my next steps, my objective is to prepare and prime now and top coat a bit later, i will be using a latex paint for the top coat.

1)will it be ok to use the cover stain oil primer over my work (including the latex calk) and eventually topcoat with latex paint? i only ask because the cover stain seems to be a specialized stain blocking paint, is it also good for a "general use" oil primer?

just curious?
if it is ok to put latex paint over oil primer why is it not good to put latex paint over oil paint?

also, for the areas of the porch where the paint is intact but just old, would i be able to skip the primer? the only thing is i do not know what the current paint is, oil of latex?

sorry for so many questions but i want to be sure and do the job right.
thanks
 
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Old 10-14-13, 01:46 PM
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http://www.doityourself.com/forum/pa...latex-oil.html

Latex paint will adhere fine to most any solvent based primer but doesn't adhere well to oil base enamel. On the exterior it is generally ok to apply latex paint over weathered oil base paint but it is never a good idea to apply latex paint directly to interior oil base enamel ..... and nobody uses flat oil wall paint anymore. I've not used any in over 40 yrs, not sure you can still buy it. To get more technical about why you can't paint over oil enamel - you'd probably need to ask a chemist.

The biggest concern with the existing sound paint is - is it chalky? Latex paint won't adhere well to chalk. When it isn't feasible to remove all the chalk you must either coat it with an oil base primer or add Flood's EmulsaBond to the first coat of latex primer/paint. The cover stain should be fine for what you need.
 
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Old 10-14-13, 11:15 PM
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thanks marksr for saving me from another pitfall !!!

yes - the old paint is chalky so do you think the best bet is to cover everything with OIL primer (both the repaired areas which were sanded down to exposed wood, as well as the old chalky paint areas) and than topcoat with a good exterior latex? (BTW-who do you like for a good exterior latex?)

i will use the cover-stain primer as it is easy to find at home depot, but i would go out of my way to find the SWP's A-100 oil base wood primer if you think that will be better. where would Zinnser Bullseye 123 rank in the choices.

thanks
 
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Old 10-15-13, 04:31 AM
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It's always best to wash off the chalk! but it doesn't always cooperate I'd wash it down with some TSP [laundry detergent will also work] and rinse well. If it's still chalky when it's dry - oil prime it.

I've never used any Zinnser coatings that didn't preform well but I don't use them all that often. I normally use the paint store's equivalent. Here in east tenn I've mostly used SWP coatings - mainly because they have more stores [locally] than the other brands. BenMoore, PPG and others also have quality coatings. It always pays to use the best paint you can afford, I would never use anyone's bottom line of coatings. Here, I would use SWP's A-100 primer top coated with their SuperPaint or Duration latex house paint.

The 2 biggest issues with buying paint from a big box store is most of their coatings are stocked based on low price rather than quality and their help isn't normally well versed in paint coatings and applications...... but the Zinnser's coatings they sell are the same as elsewhere. Your local paint store should have better trained help and also know more about which coatings work best in your locale.
 
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Old 10-15-13, 09:42 AM
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thanks

i found a sherwin williams store and got some A100 primer
note-the can says only "exterior oil based wood primer" there is no marking showing A100, but the clerk assured me its the same and that the name was changed?

how many coats of primer should i use 1 or 2
also how long can primer sit before top coating before its bonding properties start to degrade, i may not get to paint it right away.

beautiful day now but it might rain tonight, if i get the primer on now will rain later (after the primer dries) mess it up?

also-what is the best type of brush to use for this type of painting project?
is any generic polyester brush good or there better choices?
(note-i also posted this question separately)
 

Last edited by diy409; 10-15-13 at 09:58 AM.
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Old 10-15-13, 10:25 AM
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I've been retired for a few years so it's possible that they changed the label and didn't inform me

Generally 1 coat of primer is plenty. You want all the substrate coated with primer but it's ok if you can see thru it. I prefer china bristle brushes for oil base coatings but you could use a synthetic bristle brush. Normally primer is ok left uncoated for 30 days, after that it's hard to say as it depends on the type of exposure it's had.
 
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Old 10-15-13, 10:38 AM
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For some reason, paint companies are forever changing their labels. Like Mark said, get a brush that is meant for oil paint. If you get an el cheapo poly/nylon brush, don't plan on cleaning it and using it again. Primers are very sticky products and gum up brushes with ease. If you can get the whole job done in one shot it shouldn't be a problem.

Also, don't apply products to surfaces that are in direct sunlight if possible. Doesn't allow primer/paint to bond properly to the surface as it starts to dry from the inside out as soon as it touches the surface.
 
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Old 10-15-13, 01:48 PM
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ohh
one spot i primed today was indirect sun, tough to avoid
 
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Old 10-16-13, 04:19 AM
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It's not a perfect world The main thing is you don't want the primer/paint to dry too fast, that prevents it from sucking up into the wood good. Primer that dries on top of the substrate isn't adhered as well as primer that sucks in further. Sometimes it pays to thin the coating a little to counteract the weather conditions. When it's cool out, a little sunlight is beneficial. I always figured if the sun was too hot for me, it was too hot for the paint .... if the shade was too cold for me, it was too cool for the paint.
 
 

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