Painting Kitchen Cabinets - Questions


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Old 02-25-15, 04:51 PM
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Question Painting Kitchen Cabinets - Questions

I did read "The Ideal Cabinet Repaint" thread and searched this subforum for "kitchen." I still have questions as you can see.Please link me to relevant prior threads if they exist.
[HR][/HR]
Current Kitchen.
Planned Kitchen.


Specs:


Our house is less than ten years old. The kitchen is very functional, but I'd like to do some upgrades over time to improve the aesthetic.

  • Two adults and two dogs; no kids.
  • Approximately 10' x 10'.
  • Appliances, counter, and backsplash are staying as-is for now. Plan to upgrade over time; no reason to rush.
  • Flooring will be changed to white ash in late March.
  • Want to add this crown moulding via this tutorial******.
[HR][/HR]
Questions:

  • Should I do this before installing the new flooring or will it not matter? We're painting the doors and door frames, but not the interior of the cabinets.
  • Other trim and doors throughout the house are white. Should I try to match the white, or not? I know this is purely opinion, but I want your thoughts.
  • Which primer or how important is primer for this application? Our cabinets are in good condition; no pealing or problems with the finish anywhere. Research has lead me to believe that spending a bit of time and money on Zinsser BIN will help the paint look better and last longer. Is that correct or do you have a better recommendation?
  • Latex or Alkaloid paint? What are the benefits of one over the other? It seems like latex is the way to go, but I've read recommendations for some alkaloid paints.
  • Spray, brush, roll? I cannot afford an airless sprayer; I'd be using a HVLP sprayer from Harbor Freight. I've not used one before, but reviews seem positive and I like the idea of speeding up the process and reducing brushstrokes. Am I crazy to consider it? Should I stick to brushes? Can I use rollers? Is there anything different or to know about picking brushes and rollers for this application?
  • Which finish paint is best for kitchen cabinets? Brand or keyword specifications are truly appreciated. If you have personal experience or wisdom to share please do! I am willing to pay more than Home Depot brand prices if it is worthwhile. I want durable paint that I won't have to redo in a year or two that will look nice when dry and not yellow.
  • Do I need a coat or two of polyurethane? Will this ruin the look? It is necessary?
[HR][/HR]
Tutorials I've been looking at:


Thank you!
 

Last edited by Shadeladie; 02-25-15 at 05:32 PM. Reason: Some links removed
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Old 02-25-15, 06:07 PM
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I will get you started with a few opinions>

I would do the painting on the cabinets before installing the new wood floor. The less work you have to do over a new floor, the better (unless you think the cabinets are going to get hit during installation)

If you mean white for your cabinet doors, I don't think it matters, its personal taste. If you mean white on the doors leading to your kitchen, I would keep them the same as the rest of the house unless you intend to change them at some point.

Primer is very important when painting cabinets, particularly if they have poly on them now. Depending on what the finish is currently, you will want to sand the old finish until all glossy areas are dull, then use the Zinsser BIN (the red cans) to prime. More info on your current finish would help here.

My personal preference is latex paint with water base poly over top. I am sure there are others that will disagree with that.

Spary will give you the best finish, but a GOOD quality brush will do a good job as well. I would stay away from a roller.

With paint quality, a general rule of thumb is you get what you pay for. If you top coat with poly, that is going to protect your paint.
 
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Old 02-25-15, 06:35 PM
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Welcome. That's a whole lot of links there.
I remodel kitchens professionally and have been doing it for many years.
Have you considered refacing? Normally a reface involves replacing doors and drawer fronts, all hardware and drawer boxes, and covering face frames with laminate or veneer.
In a white kitchen however, you can save a ton by only replacing the doors/drawer fronts and painting the face frames. Very little of the face frames will be seen.
Refacing is not for everybody and it's not my favorite to recommend except in the case of white.
Do a search for RTF doors, Rigid Thermofoil. The doors hold up well, easy to clean.
Personally, I could have had real cherry, maple, whatever. I went with RTF white on real wood boxes.
 
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Old 02-26-15, 04:59 AM
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Alkyd [oil base] paints dry to a harder film and will wear longer but whites will yellow over time. I prefer waterborne enamels as they dry almost as hard as oil base but don't yellow. They dry fast and clean up with water. I'm partial to SWP's ProClassic waterborne enamel but B.Moore and others also have good waterborne enamels. Latex enamel would be my last choice although there is a big difference between the cheap latex enamels and the better grades of latex enamel.

It can be difficult to spray water based coatings with an HVLP. For it to atomize properly you have to drastically thin the coating and the air passing over the tip will cause it to dry on the tip - frequent cleaning to prevent the gun from spitting. A decent job can be done with a roller and/or brush.

Enamels don't need a clear coat to protect them! adding poly over the enamel complicates any touch up that might need to be done later.
 
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Old 02-26-15, 08:42 AM
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Brian: The doors and drawers are in great condition. Refacing would be more costly too, and out of our price range for now. I like the white kitchen look (grew up with one) and would like to do it with what I can, as best I can.

Mark: You've clarified several things for me and I really appreciate it!

Keith: I appreciate your perspective on this. My current kitchen cabinets are in the pictures at the top of my post, "current kitchen." Can you help me figure our what is a "good" brush?
 
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Old 02-26-15, 09:03 AM
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I've always been partial to the Purdy brand of brushes. A polyester/nylon blend brush should work well for you. Many fine it helpful to use a small roller. You can either roll on the coating and then 'tip it off' which is to lightly brush over the rolled on coating to eliminate the roller stipple. Some with poor brushing skills find it looks better to roll only. The folks at the paint store [not a paint dept] can help you choose a good brush both for you and the coating being applied.

To insure adhesion you need to sand the cabinets [scuff sand is ok] and coat them with a solvent based primer. A pigmented shellac like Zinnser's BIN dries quick and adheres great but does have an extreme odor. An oil base primer will also work, I wouldn't trust any latex primer over the cabinet's factory finish! Natural bristle brushes work best with solvent based coatings but you can use a synthetic bristle brush.
 
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Old 02-27-15, 11:36 AM
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Lightbulb

I have made the following decisions (unless you guys compel me otherwise):
  • 220 grit sand paper to start, with some gentler grits for in between coats. I have a hand held vibrating sander I'll use when possible. I realize it's just to scuff.
  • Primer: Zinsser BIN.
  • Paint: Benjamin Moore Advance Waterborne Alkyd in Satin sheen.
  • I'm going to roller on the paint, because of my inexperience with spraying, high cost of the paint, and nature of spraying this paint.
  • I ordered a 3" Purdy XL Sprig to tip if off, as suggested.
Am I missing anything?


My husband and I are putting up crown moulding along the top this weekend and then starting priming, I hope!
 
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Old 02-27-15, 11:45 AM
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Sounds like you are on the right track. The only thing I forgot to mention in my first post is to be sure to clean the surfaces with something like TSP before sanding. You want to remove any built up grease and not just move it around on the surface. A good wipe after sanding goes without saying.

Let us know how it turns out!
 
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Old 02-27-15, 11:52 AM
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I forgot to list the TSP, but yes, that is the first step!
 
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Old 02-27-15, 11:53 AM
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If you use TSP, keep in mind that it needs to be completely rinsed off afterward or it can cause adhesion issues for the primer/paint.

BM is good paint but your link did not take me to a particular product and I doubt they would have a 'waterborne alkyd' since that is in itself a contradiction in terms.
 
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Old 02-27-15, 12:01 PM
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I assumed it was this? Product Catalog
 
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Old 02-27-15, 12:12 PM
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The link from Keith is correct. #792
 
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Old 02-27-15, 12:43 PM
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Sounds like a contradiction of terms to me but what do I know?
 
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Old 02-27-15, 12:48 PM
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I agree Stickshift. Just a marketing ploy i'm sure.
 
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Old 02-27-15, 01:02 PM
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Is it going to yellow like oil based?
 
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Old 02-27-15, 01:16 PM
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I don't know - I honestly can't tell what that paint is. What color will you be using?
 
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Old 02-27-15, 01:17 PM
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FWIW, I would probably have chosen this: Product Catalog
 
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Old 02-27-15, 01:25 PM
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A low tech definition of waterborne paints is a cross between oil base and latex [I'm sure there is a chemist out there that would cringe at that explanation ]

It won't yellow. I'd step down with the sandpaper and use 150 or 180 grit, actually 120 grit is ok for sanding prior to priming. 180 is plenty fine enough for sanding the primer and between coats of enamel. It generally takes 1 coat primer and 2 coats finish to get full coverage. I don't use TSP on interior work but I do like to wipe the cabinets down with a liquid deglosser before priming. It will remove any wax/grime along with softening the existing finish promoting good adhesion. Just be sure to turn over the rag or replace as needed ..... and don't store the used rags inside!

I've owned/used a dozen or more of the Purdy sprig - it's a good brush.
 
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Old 02-27-15, 01:30 PM
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Stickshift - I've been considering that line too, Impervo, but research has lead me to the Advanced line. Also, it is unclear to me whether any local vendors have the Impervo line. I emailed the store I plan to buy from (a privately owned lumber store) with my project and what paint I was considering. They said "that [Advance] is the paint we recommend for this this type of application." I can certainly see the benefits and positive reviews around the web of people using Impervo. ...I wonder if Impervo turned into Advance? I don't know BM's product lines well enough to know. I will be using a white paint (unsure exactly, going to bring in some trim paint to see how it will match up).

Mark - You're right about the sandpaper. I was thinking of 120 and wrote 220. Oops!
 
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Old 02-27-15, 02:14 PM
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According to the description...

"Stays white longer than traditional alkyds"

I would say that means it will yellow.

This is why I personally prefer a latex base coat with a poly topcoat, but as mentioned above, it is harder to touch that up.
 
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Old 02-27-15, 02:57 PM
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Yeah, not to rain on your parade but I'd switch paints based on the information Keith found.

I'd stick with a waterborne enamel. If you don't like the remaining BM choices, Mark's recommendation of Sherwin Williams's ProClassic Waterborne would be good enough for me to choose that one.
 
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Old 02-27-15, 06:02 PM
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I'll comment about yellowing, because that is an important factor to me.
 
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Old 02-27-15, 06:09 PM
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Yeah, I won't ever use white alkyd paint because of the yellowing.

That said, I love the amber of oil based polyurethane on bare or stained wood.
 
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Old 02-28-15, 04:05 AM
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Because the Advance waterborne alkyd is waterborne - it shouldn't yellow BUT I haven't used that particular enamel so I can't say for sure.
 
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Old 02-28-15, 10:36 AM
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Ended up getting the BM Satin Impervo. It is oil based but is specifically "non-yellowing." We went to a locally owned lumber and paint supplier and talked with the paint guy about our project and concerns. He was very helpful, but I truly appreciate everyone's help here!

Product Catalog
 
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Old 02-28-15, 10:47 AM
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I see in the description for that it says "minimal yellowing". Hopefully your paint supplier guy has first had experience with this paint to say it is non-yellowing, at least enough that is it is not noticable.
 
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Old 02-28-15, 10:50 AM
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All oil base white enamels yellow! That said, some formulas are worse/better than others. Generally the higher grade oil base enamels aren't as quick [or as severe] to yellow as their cheaper counterpart.
 
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Old 02-28-15, 10:54 AM
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He said it will ooze yellow out while curing, but to wipe it away with water.
 
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Old 02-28-15, 10:55 AM
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I have never heard that before
 
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Old 02-28-15, 10:55 AM
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hmmm... Never heard that before, but I am not a paint expert.
 
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Old 02-28-15, 11:03 AM
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Well, I've not heard that before but Mark is the biggest paint expert I know and him having never heard it previously is what concerns me.
 
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Old 02-28-15, 11:04 AM
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He said it's part of the curing. The oil oozes and not to be freaked out by it. Maybe that's how it's non-yellowing. He also told us BM is the only paint company with formula r&d in the USA. Not sure if that matters though?
 
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Old 02-28-15, 11:08 AM
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If by R&D you mean research and development - that simply isn't true. Most paint manufacturers come up with their own coatings but if a competitor comes up with a coating that folks really like, most all of them will analyze that coating and come out with something similar.

It is true that the higher quality oil base enamels don't yellow as quickly as the cheaper ones.

Every coating I've used got harder and developed a better bond with the substrate as it cured. The few times I've seen oils come to the surface it was generally a defect with the coating or contamination on the substrate.
 
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Old 02-28-15, 11:47 AM
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It's all moot. I paid a lot for it and can't get a refund. I just have to hope for the best.
 
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Old 02-28-15, 01:13 PM
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The good news is that enamel will wear and adhere well. You can come back later on and let us know how much it yellows. Please let us know if it does ooze out yellow that can be wiped off with water!!
 
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Old 03-02-15, 08:56 AM
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Cool

Somewhat off topic, but something I wanted to get done: we added crown moulding. It's not even painted yet, and I'm already very happy with the look!

Here's a link to the picture.

Hopefully we paint next weekend. I work full time and am attending an evening masters program, so I'm pretty busy during the week. Hopefully we can get doors and drawers out, get sanded, and primed before Saturday. Probably not -- but we'll try!
 
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Old 03-02-15, 09:17 AM
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looks sharp

Having the determination along with using the right products/tools is half the battle if you get frustrated with how long it takes, just remember all the $ you are saving by diy
 
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Old 03-04-15, 02:06 PM
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Question

Someone recommended putting a clear topcoat over the Impervo to prevent yellowing.
  1. Could this work?
  2. I assume that would be a waterbased clear coat?
  3. Can you put water based clear coat over oil based paint?
  4. If I get a clear coat that's satin or matte will it truly not look shiny/glossy?
  5. Will that hurt the curing process of the Impervo (oil based)?
 
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Old 03-04-15, 02:13 PM
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Skip it. Won't help and will make touching up the paint down the road a nightmare if you have to do it.
 
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Old 03-04-15, 02:17 PM
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#1 - I don't know but doubt it
#2 - oil base polys yellow, water based polys do not
#3 - no, the only way for waterbased poly/varnish to have half a chance of adhering would involve heavily sanding the oil base enamel.
#4 - for the most part the sheen level is determined by the final coat
#5 - probably not

The better oil base enamels don't yellow as bad or quick as some of the cheaper ones. The only way to stop oil base whites from yellowing is not to use them although UV rays often prevent exterior white oil base from yellowing. Since you've already bought the impervo [and it is one of the better brands], I'd go ahead and use it and hope for the best. The only other choice is not to use it and go with waterborne or latex.
 
 

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