New drywall, need Level 5 finish for egshell paint finish

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Old 04-15-20, 07:21 AM
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New drywall, need Level 5 finish for egshell paint finish

My question is, can I put a 1st coat of PVA primer on the non 'mudded' ares of the panels, then go over the entire surface with PVA again? The concern is the surface difference between 'mud' compound and the paper surface of drywall after it's painted .Details below;

I had a 'handyman' do what I should of had a drywaller do which was add drywall over existing lath & plaster walls & ceilings due to condition of the older surfaces (wallpaper on walls & removed acoustic tiles on ceilings).
He used lightweight compound (less adhesive ability over taping and/or regular joint compound) with mesh tape (instead of paper) which were 2 negatives and many areas the mesh shown thru. Even after a 2nd coat.

With the covid19 pandemic, this guy won't come out until the bans are lifted, but he did offer to do so after I contacted him. I don't want to wait months for this to happen. I've been tiring to repair his mistakes, so far I'm slowly getting to all of them with the 'flashlight check' trick.

My concern, I want to use a eggshell paint, but from what I have now read to achieve a 'Level 5' finish the drywall has to be coating with either a skim coat or a specific, either spray on or rolled on coating. Spraying is out of the question and the other material is not available in my market. Tuff-Hide was one product.

From initial research, I already purchased PVA primer, which, from most of what I have read that was recommended. I don't believe this is adequate to use any 'gloss' finish (which is anything other than flat which I never liked, even on ceilings).

Sorry for the long post, I wanted to be complete.
 

Last edited by videobruce; 04-15-20 at 08:42 AM. Reason: clarified purpose of thread
  #2  
Old 04-15-20, 07:29 AM
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Paint will NEVER help hide a poor job of finishing. Level 5 means it's perfect before it's primed and painted.
 
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Old 04-15-20, 07:35 AM
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I think your getting terminology mixed up.

The average drywall install is what you would consider level 4, drywall installed, taped, mud added and sanded, then primed and painted.

A level 5 requires an additional step where the skim coat is added at the end. This is not typ and can add significant cost and time.

There is no requirement that a specific paint finish needs level 5 finish, it's just going to be a higher quality finished surface!
 
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Old 04-15-20, 08:06 AM
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I would not consider eggshell a gloss finish.
The following is is a fairly common sheen rating
Flat
Eggshell
Satin
Semi-Gloss
Gloss

 
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Old 04-15-20, 08:13 AM
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There is no requirement that a specific paint finish needs level 5 finish, it's just going to be a higher quality finished surface!
Maybe not a requirement, but take a read here;

From WCCinfo.org Levels of Finish Tech Bulletin 3;
11. Pre-texture Primer: A material specifically formulated to promote adhesion of the gypsum base texture to the substrate and to minimize the porosity difference between gypsum wallboard surface paper and the joint compound.
From WWCinfo.org 'The Interior Guide- Sept 2015;
If the expectation of the drywall primer is to enhance the gypsum board surface, then a priming material known as a drywall completion coat is recommended to be specified. A drywall completion coat is typically not classified as a paint material, it’s designed to be applied from 6.0 to 12.0 mils WFT (4.0 to 9.0 mils DFT) or (2 separate coats at 5 mils WFT, this reduces moisture issues). It’s formulated not to seal the surface, but to create a film solid that helps provide consistence with the porosity over the gypsum board surface and joint compound, this film solid also helps minimize the texture differences that occur in Gypsum Board Levels 3 and 4 Finishes.
From CGC Construction Handbook Chapter 5;
Notes #4. If skim coating is not done, the next best technique for minimizing decorating problems is to apply a prime coat of CGC First Coat, SYNKO Pre-Coat. This paint-like product equalizes joint and wallboard surfaces to help avoid texture or suction variations when the finished paint coats are applied. This procedure minimizes problems with concealment of joints and fasteners.
 
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Old 04-15-20, 08:22 AM
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I would not consider eggshell a gloss finish. The following is is a fairly common sheen rating
Flat
Eggshell
Satin
Semi-Gloss
Gloss
I agree, but most others don't;
A Gypsum Board Level 4 Finish should not be specified for a paint gloss and sheen
greater than flat.
When a Gypsum Board Level 4 Finish is followed by heavy or
medium texture finish, non-flat paints may be applied.
LEVEL 4 Typically specified where flat paints, light textures, non-continuous textures, or wallcoverings are to be applied as the final decoration. This level of finish is not recommended for use where non-flat or dark tone paints are applied or surfaces exposed to critical light conditions.
 
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Old 04-15-20, 08:44 AM
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I clarified my 1st post as to this purpose. A easier, roller applied replacement to a conventional 'skim coat'. Yes, I know one can use a roller to add a skim coat, then 'towel' the surface afterwards, but that's above my 'pay' grade. .

Let me ask this;
Is "First Coat Primer" from USG the same any PVA type primer (mine is Glidden)?
&
Would a 2nd coat of this PVA primer over the non mud surfaces help equalize the surface differences?
 
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Old 04-15-20, 09:38 AM
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1st coat [or similar] is not the same as PVA primer, neither is suitable directly under any latex enamel not that I would try to deter you away from USG FirstCoat. It does a decent job of filling minor irregularities in the finish. I'd apply a decent latex primer over the 1st coat, then 1-2 coats of latex enamel. With many brands there is little difference between eggshell and satin.
 
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Old 04-15-20, 10:02 AM
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First Coat is a decent primer. And I put 2 topcoats of paint over it with no additional primer and no problems. I find it a bit runny. But as I said before it does not hide bad finishing. If you can fix all the mistakes by skimming and sanding (go over it with a strong light before and after priming) it does a good job of hiding your seams. (The sheen difference that would otherwise show up between areas with drywall paper and drywall mud). Sand between coats of primer and paint with a pole sander.
 
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Old 04-15-20, 10:07 AM
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First Coat is a decent primer. I find it a bit runny
Have they changed the forumla? It takes a pretty stout pump to spray it without thinning. I've brushed/rolled very little of it but have sprayed 100's of gallons. Don't recall any issue with runs/sags.
 
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Old 04-15-20, 10:14 AM
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Dont know. But the last 5 gallon I painted out of the bucket with a roller and it was really runny. Maybe it had frozen or something.
 
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Old 04-15-20, 10:20 AM
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Freezing normally makes paint thicker.,, maybe a bad batch ??
 
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Old 04-15-20, 01:54 PM
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1st coat [or similar] is not the same as PVA primer, neither is suitable directly under any latex enamel
I'm really confused by your response. All I have read about a PVA primer was positive and THE material for a base coat on new drywall.
I'd apply a decent latex primer over the 1st coat, then 1-2 coats of latex enamel.
When you say "1st coat" (in quotes) are you referring to the USG product or something else?? Also the "latex enamel", are you referring to regular eggshell latex paint (probably Behr in my case)?
 
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Old 04-16-20, 04:02 AM
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PVA is probably the cheapest primer for new drywall you can buy. It hardly has any sealing properties. Given a choice I won't use it. USG First Coat is a high build primer. It's main purpose is to fill in minor irregularities in the drywall [not a substitute for good finishing] I've used both the USG version and SWP's [maybe a few other brands] Like PVA it doesn't really seal the wall - doesn't make the wall scrubable or allow an enamel to hold an even sheen [a 2nd coat of enamel can fix that]

All latex enamels preform about the same although the better ones are less likely to peel/chip when abused. The better paints both wear and apply better than their cheaper counterpart. I have little experience with Behr coatings.
 
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Old 04-16-20, 04:57 AM
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I have little experience with Behr coatings.
And that is a good!

Hey OP, do some searching on this site about all the horror stories regarding Behr products and the various recommendations for paints!

Is's one of our more entertaining discussions!
 
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Old 04-16-20, 06:58 AM
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'USG First Coat' in not available in this market (Buffalo/WNY). as far as I can tell.. USG's site has no one listed in this market selling it. HD doesn't list it, Lowes doesn't carry it anymore. Amazon doesn't either (not that I would even remotely consider ordering something that heavy for shipment). I also called over six local building supply companies and they don't either. Some never heard of it.

Your post does have me 2nd guessing Gliddens PVA primer. Of the 2 sites that made comparisons on drywall primer, one site had Glidden 3rd out of three, the other has it 1st out of ten, but both raised questions with their reviews. (I get at least three references, if not more before I make a move on something.)

AFA as Behr, it's been Consumer Reports (whom I been a subscriber for probably over 40 years) top paint for over a decade. I have used it indoor & out for over 30 years on my house with no issues. But, I will look into what others here claim about it.
 

Last edited by videobruce; 04-16-20 at 07:43 AM. Reason: added text
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Old 04-16-20, 08:35 AM
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Oh, before the comments on my last post, it's hard to tell which gets bashed more; Behr or CR.
BTW, comparing a review of a sports car with paint isn't realistic or fair (from a decade plus old post here after searching both terms).
 
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Old 04-16-20, 09:30 AM
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I trust real life experiences [mine or others] more than I do Consumer Reports. If I remember correctly, the poster that brought up the sports car analogy said that CR reported the sports car road too rough - soft suspensions come at the expense of great handling.
 
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Old 04-16-20, 09:51 AM
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soft suspensions come at the expense of great handling.
and so what does cheap paint come at the expense of?
 
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Old 04-16-20, 09:54 AM
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Cheap paints often don't cover or wear as well. Often it's easier to get a nice looking job with quality paint versus it's cheap counterpart. With latex enamels, the cheap enamels are prone to chip/peel when hit hard. The peeled areas are kind of stretchy - I assume that means they lacked something that would help the paint to bond to the wall better along with not being able to dry to as hard of a film.
 
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Old 04-16-20, 11:51 AM
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Here are some more inspirational comments about Behr paints.

I also noticed that most of the paints they compare against, like Glidden, are not consider top of the line, so if you want to compare low cost paints, they get the nod, crap vs crap, may the less crappy paint win!

https://www.consumeraffairs.com/home...ands/behr.html
 
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Old 04-17-20, 05:01 AM
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Just so y'all know, Glidden has some great coatings but you won't find them at a big box. Those Glidden paints are stocked there because they're their cheapest. IMO Glidden hurt their reputation by allowing their cheapest coatings to be sold at a big box.
 
 

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