Spark Plug Change

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  #1  
Old 10-17-02, 12:01 PM
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Question Spark Plug Change

My daughter who lives out of town has developed a slight miss in the Dodge mini van she drives (several years old). She was wondering if it might need new plugs and I said it couldn't hurt as cheap as they are. She asked me what would she probably have to pay to have the plugs changed, and I haven't a clue, as this is one of many maintenance items that I have always done myself. Does anyone have a guess as to labor charge for a 6 cyl spark plug change? I told her to have her husband do it, but he is out of town on business.
 
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  #2  
Old 10-17-02, 03:30 PM
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I would urge rethinking this. If it were you or me changing the plugs - no big deal. Might be worth a try. Plugs are a couple of bucks apeice. On the other hand she is likely to pay $100 or more for a "tune-up" that may not fix the problem at all. Her problem could have several causes, and frankly plugs are usually pretty dependable in my experience.

I would advise helping her find a reputable mechanic who can diagnose the problem using proper techniques. In the long run that will be well worth the effort and the dollars, assuming you cannot physically be there to help her. Use the internet to get some recommendations. What city is she in? Let's get some of us guys working together to help this man's daughter. She does not need multiple trips tpo the repair shop to interfere with her running around town.
 
  #3  
Old 10-17-02, 03:34 PM
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somehow posted twice - sorry 'bout that
 
  #4  
Old 10-17-02, 05:06 PM
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See the posting rules, guidelines, required information, etc, as I have noted below.

This is paramount to us helping you.

A tune up never hurts. I can bet that the thing hasn't seen a tuneup in a while and that's the first place to start.
 
  #5  
Old 10-18-02, 05:19 AM
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Joe F's advice is all well and good, but I must say, not particularly helpful to this lady since she is not going to do the work herself. Also, a "tuneup" is fine assuming she knows and trusts the shop doing the work. The whole point here is the get the guy some help pointing his daughter in the right direction to get someone in her town to take care of her. Tutorials about do-it-yourself techniques and admonishments to folks who are looking for help that they must follow your instructons before you will deign to help them are just not needed in this instance.

Frankly I hink you're missing the point of the question, Joe. Hope you will not be insulted by my straightforward comments. I mean to be provocative, but not disrespectful.

So, what can we do to really help this lady?
 
  #6  
Old 10-18-02, 05:26 AM
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You are right on the money, sleepy. I was asking a question with a very narrow range. Just wanted to know what price range one might expect if my daughter went to an independent mechanic and instructed him to only change the plugs.
 
  #7  
Old 10-18-02, 06:09 AM
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I had a minor misfire that was getting worse then I tried $10 fuel system cleaner- (add to fuel tank) with excellent results.

Fuel system cleaner is the first I would try; dont get the $2 bottles get the $10.(black bottle-Techron)

in my opinion these cleaners are good to use every now and then.
 
  #8  
Old 10-18-02, 06:36 AM
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spark plugs don't live forever. if she goes to a tuneup specialty shop, it would be a good idea for her to ask for the plugs. she can then either ask them what causes the type discoloration or take them to an autozone or other parts store and ask the same questions. plug condition tells a whole lot about engine conditions. they don't usually advise you on problems that cause whatever is wrong with a plug unless you ask since they don't go further than oil changes, and plug/wire changes.

it is a mini van, so i'm thinking that she may not have the tools on hand to change the plugs. front wheel drive vehicles have the engine mounted sideways in the engine compartment which makes it hard to reach the rear set (3) for changes. this can get expensive at a shop due to labor time/costs. with it being a van, the engine compartment is small, which makes reaching the rear plugs even harder. a shop can 'rock' the engine forward to access the back side of the engine. they have the equipment for this.

in looking around for a shop, its a good idea just to go talk to them as you would a contractor doing work on your home. ask a lot of questions, and you can also make arrangements to bring your vehicle early (when the shop opens) and either leave it or wait on it. when asking questions you can find out when the 'slow' time for the shop is, and how long the job usually takes. You can also make sure beforehand that they have the parts needed on hand to cut down on time the van is in the shop.

also have them check the condition of the wires. a simple test can determine if one or more are failing.

The other posts are correct in stating that the plugs could be fine. a fuel additive may solve the problem for awhile. something in the fuel or other condition could have fouled out a plug and the cleaner may help it some. also, it never hurts to care for the fuel injection system or carb by cleaning with these products.

I will add that with my 89 Cavalier it would cost me $125 to have the plugs changed. That was one quote I received, but I also received a $75 quote from another shop. I did it myself instead. It took all of 15 minutes to change the front 3, but an hour and a half to replace the rear 3 due to the fact that I used a mirror to locate and replace the back ones since I couldn't see them. I had to take care not to misthread them when replacing them. Very risky move on my part since I could not see what I was doing very well. If I had stripped the threads by misthreading, my high quote of $125 would have soared much higher!

Kay

ps: $125 isn't actually a "high" quote since it is labor intensive to do it. It was just the highest of the two I did get.

K.
 

Last edited by kaybyrd; 10-18-02 at 06:59 AM.
  #9  
Old 10-18-02, 08:49 AM
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Thumbs down

No offense taken, but you are incorrect

Rule #1: I cannot help without vehicle data. This forum has rules, guidelines and posting requirements. They were not provided in the initial post. You get out what you put in.

If you go to the doctor and your hand hurts, he will ask questions. If you repair your vehicle or have it done, I will ask questions.

Answers to my questions are critical to getting things right. That's why they are asked. That is why we have posting requirements.

Rule #2: If you read my post "The Basics" it WILL tell you where to start. I can tell the poster DID NOT read that post, as most of the starting points are there. You cannot expect an out of tune vehicle to deliver good performance. Period.

If the spark plugs are fouled or sooty, SOMETHING causes that. Spark plugs inherently "don't" go bad.

Changing spark plugs is like plugging a hole with gum. Eventually, the leak returns . This is not a proper repair. The problem is elsewhere.

No offense taken, but cannot get to the root of the problem if we do not have complete information (we still do not know what year we are talking about, the mileage, the maintenance history, the actual problem, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc).
 
  #10  
Old 10-18-02, 09:12 AM
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Joe - sorry, but I don't have the make/model/engine data beyond what I said in my original post. I don't know anything about the maintenance of this vehicle. It is a loaner from a friend of my daughter. It started missing and she thought that perhaps new plugs might be needed. If they have never been changed out the ignition cables might also be the culprit. Having never worked on a 6 cyl sidewinder myself, it never occurred to me about the difficulty of access to the back 3 plugs. I just thought that a plug replacement might be an easy and inexpensive possible fix.
 
  #11  
Old 10-18-02, 09:25 AM
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Joe is correct about the spark plugs (and the other, too). I am a 'bandaid-er" most of the time. My plugs always tell me: hey, you've got a carb problem. That is what causes my plugs to fail, not the plug itself. The biggest clue is the fact that you can smell fuel on the plug.

A good thing about finding a steady mechanic for your work is that they, like a doctor, can try to help you keep up with your vehicle maintenance records. If this isn't the case, then you need to keep records yourself to show the next mechanic. Just as here on the boards, we don't know the history of the vehicle, or the age, make and model to even venture a correct, much less close possible diagnosis. It is much harder here since we can't look at it ourselves.

The more information provided can be invaluable on our end, and yours in the long run. Whereas with a doctor the diseases change and the patient remains the same, for a mechanic the diseases remain the same but each patient is different.

As far as pricing goes, that would depend on the shop, location, and quality of work. If I had chosen to have a shop replace the plugs for me I would not have chosen the $125 quote because I did not like the way the shop was kept. I also didn't like the way the mechanics behaved, etc. This isn't always the case, though. Sometimes more money means a better run shop, with the proper equipment and mechanics with training.

As Joe said, just changing the plugs is a bandaid. Something is causing the problem. Find out what it is, and then cure the problem. Otherwise the same thing is going to occur and/or something worse.

Kay
 
  #12  
Old 10-18-02, 01:23 PM
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All the posts have been informative, but I still believe that what thiggy needs is to find a good reliable mechanic for his daughter.

Put another way, he does not need help fixing the problem. Rather, he needs help in getting the problem fixed.

So, my advice is to use whatever resources he can to locate a reliable reasonably priced mechanic in her town. I am not sure of the best way to do this, but I would use the internet and I would also tap her knowledge. Does she have any friends who would recommend any particular mechanics? Can she provide a list of the mechanics nearby from the phone book, so he could call them and find out their qualifications? At least he might be better able to converse with the repair shop than she would. Are they certified and in what areas? What would they do to diagnose this problem? What are their service guarantees?

I suspect that dad is frustrated because he is not there to help her, but he can still do a lot from afar using data and voice communications.

This ain't about spark plugs in my humble opinion.
 
  #13  
Old 10-18-02, 02:04 PM
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I'm sure he is too, but the more his daughter knows, the better chance she has a chance of finding someone that will do the job, not cheat her or talk her into other services that aren't needed at the moment.

The only problem with pinpointing a mechanic for her would require an address, city and state and I don't believe that we should post that information here.

Maybe she can get by on just using the additive in her fuel until her husband gets back home from his business trip. That would probably be the ideal situation for them right now. If her husband is capable of checking on the plugs and/or causes related to them then lets wait on the husband to return. Until then, maybe a few simple things to try to get them by.

Kay
 
  #14  
Old 10-18-02, 02:33 PM
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Bought a Buick with a side mounted 6 cylinder engine and the first thing I did was change the plugs. The front three were different than the original rear three> I suspect the original owner paid a shop to do a tune up or change the plugs. I would absolutely make sure I trusted the shop or was there if paying to change the plugs. 15 minutes for the front three two hours for the rear three and many cuts and bruises. Be very careful if you farm this job out.
 
  #15  
Old 10-18-02, 02:35 PM
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More than likely the previous owner of your buick try to do the job themselves, changed the front 3 and then discovered that it was a major feat to change the rear 3 and left them.

Kay
 
  #16  
Old 10-18-02, 04:16 PM
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Well put by Kay, bravo.

The best way to find a good mechanic:

1) Check the yellow pages and call around to shops that are willing to talk to you and hear out your problem and offer a free estimate or diagnostic check.

2) Look at the ASE's webpage (www.asecert.org). ASE seeks to certify mechanics and the auto repair industry. It doesn't certify competence, it certifies business practices, consistency, etc.

3) Ask friends and neighbors for recommendations.

4) Check the Better Business Bureau's website for your area for any complaints against the shop you are seeking to hire.

5) The shop should provide a written estimate, post their labor, be fair and keep in contact with you about your vehicle while it is there. They need to call you to authorize any repairs before doing the work. Also, you have a right to see the old parts being replaced. Ask for an explanation from them as well.
 
  #17  
Old 10-19-02, 08:35 AM
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Kaybyrd, the previous owner of my Buick is about 80 years old and had reciepts for work done, he did nothing himself. This was done, I'm sure, by his regular service station although there was no bill for it. As I said before, if the job is farmed out either be there or make absolutely sure you trust the shop. I hate to also say this as I really don't know a hell of a lot about cars but I do know a hell of a lot more than people who make their living working on cars.
 
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Old 10-19-02, 10:04 AM
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"I hate to also say this as I really don't know a hell of a lot about cars but I do know a hell of a lot more than people who make their living working on cars. "

I didn't understand that statement.

Its nice to know that the previous owner kept all the receipts for work done on the car. I try to do the same on my truck event though I don't plan on selling it, but if the occassion did arise I thought it would help out the next guy.

Kay
 
  #19  
Old 10-19-02, 12:53 PM
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Originally posted by easywind
Kaybyrd, the previous owner of my Buick is about 80 years old and had reciepts for work done, he did nothing himself. This was done, I'm sure, by his regular service station although there was no bill for it. As I said before, if the job is farmed out either be there or make absolutely sure you trust the shop. I hate to also say this as I really don't know a hell of a lot about cars but I do know a hell of a lot more than people who make their living working on cars.
Im with Kaybird ,could you please elaborate and explain your last sentence?
 
  #20  
Old 10-19-02, 01:12 PM
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If you know more than those fixing them for a living, you're not bringing the vehicle to the right place to get fixed.
 
  #21  
Old 10-19-02, 02:31 PM
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I confess! (Well, not really, it wasn't a Buick!) I once changed three, then, months later, let a shop do the rest! Made me wish for the 'Good 'ole Days' when I could actually look down at the engine and see the ground!
 
  #22  
Old 10-19-02, 06:34 PM
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huh?

"I do know a hell of a lot more than people who make their living working on cars."

-know a lot more about what? helicoptors, particle accelerators, open heart surgery, nuclear physics?

The suspense is killing some of us...
 
  #23  
Old 10-19-02, 07:43 PM
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If he's saying that all mechanics aren't very smart in other areas, then he better think again! A mechanic isn't just one of those people who can't get another job somewhere else so they 'opt' out and become a mechanic or frycook. Not that I have anything against frycooks - tried it and couldn't keep up. Really admire those than can do it.

Mechanic skills: patience, simple knowledge of physics, math, reasoning by deduction, constantly having to learn new 'patients', diagnosis without adequate help from owners, ...

...please add to list, since I've barely even begun what is required of a mechanic.

You tell me the basics of how a transmission works and I might listen to you. What is a torque converters role in a tranny?

You tell me the basics of a combustion engine, how the stroke pattern works, what and why the timing is crucial... add the rest of the drive train and then talk to me.

You tell me how many grooves or 'winds' per inch my governor in my tranny requires with my 33" tires and my transmission to produce a proper reading on my speedometer...

Mechanics: my hat is off to you guys! I appreciate you more than you will ever know.

Kay
 
  #24  
Old 10-20-02, 07:53 AM
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Kaybird electronics has become the #1 thing in vehicles.I would like to see him explain multiplexing,uart,star configurations and class 2 for a start.Or even tell me what they are.We fix cars and trucks in our dealer which have been damaged at factory level and by others whom can't repair the vehicle.We are the last stop auto shop.We also train constantly for new updates so the company will pay the dealer for warranty work performed.
 
  #25  
Old 10-20-02, 08:38 AM
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Davo:

That is why today I drive a 1979 Blazer and have sold my 89 Cavalier. Even though my year Cavalier wasn't as computer based as the newer cars, it was still out of my ballpark.

I took a mere year of AutoMechanics in college. In one year's time I learned why it was labeled BASIC automechanics as it only touched the surface of what being a mechanic required.

I also rebuilt transmissions for a semester. I liked it, other than the smell LOL. I can't take one out or replace it, but I could rebuild it. Sun gears, clutches, valves, the list is long but so fascinating! The tranny is only one piece of an entire car's system. It amazed me, and made me aware of just how a mechanic has to know his stuff when faced with: why do I not have reverse? Rebuilding is easy, diagnosing is TOUGH! Its not just the parts and pieces its all about cause and effect.

Same with other areas of a vehicle. Something else most owners don't realize is that during a production year a different style transmission could have been used. Some cars are prototypes for the next model coming out (I had a VW scirroco that was one of these: it was part scirroco and part of another (name escapes me at the moment) but it was hard to fix without having access to this knowledge. There is one alternator style out there for this car. It has to be purchased from the dealer since it doesn't fit on the older scirrocos or the line that evolved from the scirroco. It was $600 for this alternator. My mechanic knew this, however. He explained that is why every alternator that I tried to put on there would not work. And also why every battery that I put on there would die from using the wrong alternator...this is why the mods and regulars on here are in need of the vitals: year, make, model and style (LE, SE, etc.)

The point being that during a production year, even after all the pretesting they do, customers complain about lacking power, excessive clutch wear during normal driving, etc. and the car companies go in and make the changes on the next batch to eliminate these problems.

I know that mechanics can't keep all this information in their heads, although I do know of many who can and do, but they do keep current manuals and have to be able to research not just repair.

Doctors and mechanics. They are the only service providers that I know of that can find the 'hidden' variables that can make 1+1=3.

Kay
 
  #26  
Old 10-20-02, 01:17 PM
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Anyone that makes a statement against mechanics either:

1) Got screwed by a bad one (partially the consumer's fault at times for not doing their homework and shopping on price alone ),

2) Lacks the knowledge to change a spark plug or do anything and in turn gets a superiority complex against those that do it for a living. It's tough, grinding, hard work and it gets less respect than many other professions. Yet, as Davo points out, you have to be the "doctor" in many cases.

3) Recently, my cousin wanted to do his water pump. He said, "I think I can handle it on my own on this Taurus". I said, "Better come over my house, you're going to run into trouble.

This is a guy who is no stranger to diagnostics, he's a computer guru at his company, and runs the whole shabang. Yet he lacks the tools, but not the methodology. I could teach him the grunt work (he's a fast learner), but his mind is not for THIS type of diagnostic.

Nor does he own the thousands of dollars of tools required! Lol.

As Davo said, when you can talk shop, you can complain. I can tell you I've been working with cars since I was five years old (I'm 31 now) and let me tell you there's always more to learn.

I'm not even in the "trade", I'm on the manufacturer side in the office. However, when I release a part or write an instruction sheet or work with a part, I think about me being the poor slob having to install this thing and saying "Am I doing the installer justice...what would I want????".

I'm with Kay, I have the simple stuff. I just like it better, that's all .
 
  #27  
Old 10-21-02, 03:38 PM
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I apoligize for my statment, what I meant to say was I know a lot more than a lot of people who work on cars for a living. There are some people out there who are excellent. I travel about 6 months a year and at times I do run into trouble. It takes me a while to find a shop that is willing to diagnose a problem instead of changing out parts. When home in NY I work with one shop that I keep a relationship with and they are willing to troubleshoot a problem and fix what's wrong. Unfortunately there are to many people out there who do nothing but change parts. They give the automotive trade a bad name. I also NEVER shop for a shop on price. And as a last thing the old man I bought the car from was screwed, with either a tune up or spark plug change. Some person out there working as a "mechanic" didn't do the right thing. I also know there are people out ther who know more in there little fingers than I ever dreamed of knowing.
 
  #28  
Old 10-21-02, 07:25 PM
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Lets try and get this back on topic and see if we can help here.

I agree with sleepy hollow on this one. I don't see any harm in knowing the town (or immediate area) where this guys daughter lives. If anyone lives remotely near they could reccomend a shop for thiggy.

So Thiggy, what area? Again no names, addresses, or phone numbers (to protect the innocent). But we really don't need to know anything about the mini-van to reccomend a shop, and I think that is the real question.
 
  #29  
Old 10-22-02, 04:33 AM
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I had hoped her husband would handle this, but without even cranking the car he pronounced the trouble as the ignition coil! I don't have a lot of confidence in his diagnostic skills. However he wouldn't touch it - too busy tuning up his ski boat. The town is Pell City Ala., on beautiful Lake Logan Martin. Thanks for all comments and suggestions.
 
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Old 10-22-02, 08:35 AM
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Check the ASE's website for member shops and participating members that are ASE certified. That might be a good place to start.

ASEcert.org is the URL. Start there.
 
  #31  
Old 10-22-02, 08:50 AM
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Joe,

At some shops don't they put the vehicle on some sort of machine to test to see what the possible problem could be? Aside from reading codes.

I only took one year of auto mechanics, but in the second year I would have dealt with fuel injection, etc. and they had some sort of diagnostics machine that could give you an idea of what might be the possible cause. I'm sure that costs extra though.

Kay
 
  #32  
Old 10-22-02, 10:21 AM
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Sure, an engine analyzer .

That's not the be all, end all though. It takes a good technician to figure out the root cause of the problem.

Once again, the first thing in diagnosing anything is collecting information. Whether it is a doctor, a police man, an investigator, a mechanic, or a person at work solving a problem. You need data. When you have that, you can start to look at the potential causes.

1) We do not know what year, model, engine size or type of machine we are dealing with here. This is a severe handicap in our ability to help. Really, until we have this, we're all guessing, nothing more.

2) Knowing what has been done to the vehicle, what the maintenance history is, what has been tried is also a help. We'd be suggesting things that were verified and tried already!

3) It seems like the original poster's relative is shotgunning things. That's a sure fire way to spend a ton of money unnecessarily in a hurry. Sure a lobatomy might cure you, but two Tylenol and some rest might too! Lol.

4) I'm usually pretty good, but I don't know how someone could determine the ignition coil is bad simply by cranking the vehicle. Ignition coils are pretty reliable items. If this is the diagnostic approach taken, I suggest bailing out and having it looked at professionally. Trust me, it will be cheaper in the long run .

5) You simply cannot expect a vehicle that hasn't been tuned up in a number of years, has not seen service in a while or that is in poor mechanical condition to run right. Simply not the case. We know nothing other than the fact it's some sort of Chrysler product. . It could be anything from a vacuum line off to the engine needing a rebuild.

The key is the information..much as I have requested from all posters in my signature file and what appears at the top of the forum entitled "Please read before posting".
 
  #33  
Old 10-22-02, 10:41 AM
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Joe, you missed the point- my S-I-L diagnosed the coil without even cranking the engine or opening the hood. Actually I suspect he was able to do it from the comfort of his sofa with a cold one in his hand. Of course, he didn't have the time to follow-through with any repairs. Perhaps he should hang out a shingle as a "Psychic Auto Diagnostician"
 
  #34  
Old 10-22-02, 12:52 PM
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That's a good one Thiggy!

I was just trying to think of what your daughter might encounter when she goes to a shop. Things to ask of the shop, and information needed when she goes.

Since its a loaner, she may want to approach the one she borrowed it from and let them know that it isn't running well (missing a little) and she wanted to have it fixed. Who knows, they may say not to worry about it, that it does that on occassion since I need to repair _______ and I just changed the plugs so it would run better while you had it. Or they may say (as Joe suggested might be the or part of the problem) to check such and such vacuum line since it has come lose before....

Then again if they borrowed it from one of her husband's friends they may try to get an engine out of them!

Kay
 
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Old 10-22-02, 01:08 PM
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We'll need more information to go any further.

Please provide:

1) The actual problem.
2) The vehicle data as initially requested.
3) The sources to look for good shops have been provided, give those a whirl.

Let us know the answers to the three questions above and we can move along and try to help .
 
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