Timing

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  #1  
Old 01-05-03, 03:36 PM
jrodcat
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Angry Timing

84 Toyota Celica GT 116K miles. Water mixing with the oil. Car started fine and ran untill it started heating up, but I was very carefull and never let it get too hot. Took the head off and had it checked, it checked out fine, had it resurfaced anyways since I was putting a new gasket on it. Problem now is the thing wont start. I have gas and good strong blue spark. I think when I put it back together I must have moved the timing chain and threw it out of timing. But it turns over like it should. How do I put it back in the correct timing?
 
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  #2  
Old 01-05-03, 03:39 PM
Joe_F
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Check the fuel pressure to see if there is any....

Check autolibrary.org on the timing question.
 
  #3  
Old 01-05-03, 04:26 PM
jrodcat
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Timing

Did that, I even removed the cold start injector from the EFI to see if there was gas squirting in from the injector and there is a nice steady stream...
 
  #4  
Old 01-10-03, 09:06 PM
jrodcat
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84 Toyota Celica

I put a new timing chain, tensioner, sprokets, and timing chain guides. I followed the book very closely and everything is lined up the way it should be. I didn't want to put it all together and fin out I did something wrong so I left the valve cover off and the timing chain cover off and everything I took off like the radiator and alernator and such. I just wanted to see if the car would start and sound normal. Well it did. But only for a second. Then It died off. I kees doing the same thing over and over. It starts fine but then it dies. It only stays on for a second. Is it because I left everything off and there are lots of air leaks or should it stay on untill I decide to shut it off. I only planed on leaving it on for a few seconds anyways but I dont like the fact that it turns of by itself. Can someone tell me if thats normal?
 
  #5  
Old 01-11-03, 06:53 AM
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I would suspect you're losing a lot of intake vacuum with it partially dismantled (depending on what is disconnected as far as vacuum lines, pcv line, etc) meaning a very lean condition. It initially fires because of the extra fuel squirt when you start, but then it is way too lean to continue running. I would put it the rest of the way back together and see what you've got.

And I would be checking the fuel pressure, too, as Joe Cool recommends.
 
  #6  
Old 01-11-03, 08:03 AM
Doug Money
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It won't run more than a second or so, because the alternator is not spinning. It is a safety built in. If it is starting up, chances are when you hook up the alternator and belt, it will continue running.
 
  #7  
Old 01-11-03, 10:44 AM
Joe_F
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Doug:

I'm not aware of any design of any engine where if the alternator is not spinning, the engine will not run.

If battery power is sufficient, the engine will turn over and stay running. The engine may eventually die when the battery power wears down and nothing is powering any electrical accessories.

I've had customers make it to shop with broken alternator belts, so I know it's true .
 
  #8  
Old 01-11-03, 10:48 AM
Doug Money
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It is so on some of the jap cars
 
  #9  
Old 01-11-03, 11:40 AM
Joe_F
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Do you have an OEM factory book reference on that? I've worked on numerous and never encountered that.

I don't think it's likely because if the belt were to snap on the highway when you were going along and the engine were to quit, it would be tough to steer it off to the shoulder.
 
  #10  
Old 01-11-03, 11:44 AM
jrodcat
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84 Toyota Celica

Thanks for all the info. I just have a quick question about the way you set the timing on this car. The book tells me to align the two shiny links over the sproket mark, when the number one piston's at TDC. However, it seems like the two shiny links travel on the sprocket as the engine runs. In other words the two shiny links dont always stay over the mark. Eventually, they make their way back to being there but shouldn't they always stay over the mark if the car is to stay in time? On the tear down portion of the book they tell you to find that mark and the two links will be over it, but if they are traveling on the sprocket, they may not be depending on when you shut the engine off. Does that make sense? I'm trying really hard to understand this timing thing???
 
  #11  
Old 01-11-03, 04:46 PM
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the colored links will move around and eventually work there way back to the set points if you turn the engine over by hand enough times but has no real importance except to insure that you get it in time when first installing the chain.
 
  #12  
Old 01-11-03, 06:22 PM
jrodcat
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Thanks, it sort of made sense but had me a little worried.
 
  #13  
Old 01-11-03, 08:08 PM
jrodcat
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Folks, a quick update on this car. Put everything back together and started it up. It sort of wanted to dye out but I kept pumping the gas (It was bone dry so I added 6 fresh gallons) and eventually it stayed on. Sounds good too, better than it ever did. Only thing is when I let it sit at idle it cuts out. If I keep the gas pedal depressed it runs fine. Do you think I need to adjust something on the intake or maybee the fuel filter is clogged or something?

P.S. You guys have been a great deal of help and re-assurance. Knowing someone is out there with all that experience and is willing to share it is great (and free). It means alot to us rookies...
 
  #14  
Old 01-11-03, 08:43 PM
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make sure you have all vacum lines hooked up correctly and that your ignition timing is set to spec, if it is idling to low there is probably an air bleed screw located near the throttle body that will set the idle up if needed.
 
  #15  
Old 01-12-03, 01:41 PM
jrodcat
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Everything is back on. All the vacum lines hooked up with the exception of one. It goes on this little plastic tube and it broke off, so I just plugged the line with a screw. It starts up just fine and sounds good, I'm afraid to let it run long though because there is no oil pressure at the pressure guage. How long can I let it run without doing any damage. I remember this car heating up on me and thats what caused the initial tear down of the head, there was water moxing with the oil so I was told by a mechanic shop the head gasket was bad, I was afraid it had damaged the head but when I had it checked it checked out fine. I'm very cautious of the tempature guage. I'm not that cautious of the oil pressure guage though (I will be from now on). If the oil pump was bad to begin with, would that have caused it to over heat? I don't mind putting a new pump on it since I've already spent so much time putting it all together. I'm just wondering if there is a way to check it before I go out and buy one. I remember taking it off and it has some gears in it. It attaches to the timing cover and has an O-Ring for a gasket. Maybee I put it on wrong, but it seemed to be the only way it could go on. Any suggestions?
 
  #16  
Old 01-12-03, 02:37 PM
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if you are using the guage on the dash to determine you do not have oil pressure, you will need to check it with a hand held mechanical guage and see what the actual oil pressure is, i would imagine if it didnt have any oil pressure it would be rattling and making alot of noise coming from the engine.
 
  #17  
Old 01-12-03, 04:39 PM
Joe_F
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Thumbs up

If the pressure gauge is at zero, you might have a wasted sending unit. Pretty cheap and easy to fix, any parts store has it.

Otherwise, I agree with BeJay.
 
  #18  
Old 01-12-03, 04:43 PM
jrodcat
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Is there a special tool for checking the oil pressure. I'm afraid to let it run for an extended period if in fact there is no oil pumping. I've put too much work into it, to mess up the motor.
 
  #19  
Old 01-12-03, 04:50 PM
Joe_F
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Yes, a hand held oil pressure tester. It will have the needed adapters for your vehicle. Autozone will rent you one for no charge.
 
  #20  
Old 01-12-03, 06:02 PM
jrodcat
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I'll try it tommorrow. Thanks.
 
  #21  
Old 01-13-03, 11:23 AM
jrodcat
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The Autozone in my neighborhood told me they dont rent one. They gave me a compression tester and told me to hook it up to the sending unit. Does that sound correct? I bought the compression tester for about $30 but i'll take it back if it's not the right tool for the job.
 
  #22  
Old 01-13-03, 11:43 AM
Joe_F
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If it does not specifically say it can be adapted or used for oil pressure testing, then no, it is not the right item.
 
  #23  
Old 01-13-03, 12:16 PM
jrodcat
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Thanks joe, i'll try a different store.
 
  #24  
Old 01-14-03, 09:07 PM
jrodcat
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It was the oil pump. When I checked it with the guage, it had no pressure what so ever. I took it off and greased the hell out of it, (someone at autozone told me to do that) and it was about 10 psi. I bought a new one and it went over 60 psi. The spec is 60 so I figure the old one was bad. Why do I need to grease it. The book does not say anything about greasing up the new pump. Either way it's good now. I replaced the sending unit as well, since the guage had to go to where it was located, it was already off (the old one). The pressure guage at the dash is now giving me good pressure readings. Thanks guys. You've saved me a lot of money...
 
  #25  
Old 01-15-03, 05:31 AM
Joe_F
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Thumbs up

Good job.
 
  #26  
Old 01-15-03, 01:59 PM
jrodcat
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I've got a big oil leak at the oil pan right on the corner. I used a new gasket and used sealent just where the book said. It still leaks something awfull. Both surfaces cleaned, I took the pan out and got under the motor with a plastic scraper, most of the old gasket came off without breaking. I did notice the old gasket was rubber, and the one I used is cork. Is there a difference? Any suggestions?
 
  #27  
Old 01-15-03, 05:38 PM
Joe_F
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Use quality Felpro gaskets. They tend not to leak. They often have problem solver type gaskets for high leak areas like that.

Some OEM's only recommend RTV sealant and no gasket. Contact Felpro's tech line and ask.
 
  #28  
Old 01-17-03, 09:52 AM
jrodcat
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I went to the dealer for this one. It seemed to work, I have no leaks. I think I may have torqued them too much the first time. The book says 60 inch pounds, seems like it should be tighter than that. Either way, I folowed the spec and i've got wheels. Thanks again for all your advice...
 
  #29  
Old 01-17-03, 11:29 AM
Joe_F
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You got it
 
  #30  
Old 01-24-03, 10:36 AM
jrodcat
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Same car new problem

I've been on the road for a while now, just yesterday as I was coming home from work, at a stop light, this car started reving high, around 2000RPM and would not come down any lower. I set the idle speed at 800 RPM when I set the timing (8 BTDC) just like the book said. When I got home, I hooked up the tachometer and it was around 2200 RPM at Idle. I tried to lower the idle speed but the screw was as far down as it would get. The timing was off also. I was able to bring the timing back to normal by turning the distributor but the idle speed is still high, about 1500 RPM even after I turned the screw all the way in. Any ideas why this would happen. Any ideas on how I can solve it?
 
  #31  
Old 01-24-03, 12:57 PM
Joe_F
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Clean the throttle body and check your idle air control valve.
 
  #32  
Old 01-24-03, 02:10 PM
jrodcat
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Should I just spray carb and choke cleaner all over it. I believe the air control valve is what I was turning to set the idle speed, reason I say that is because if you take that screw all the way out it sucks in air.
 
  #33  
Old 01-24-03, 02:13 PM
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yeah well just screw it in there and spray er down hey put a little high octane fuel on the carb bout a quarter gallon
 
  #34  
Old 01-24-03, 03:05 PM
Joe_F
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Spray it with special throttle body cleaner as some carb cleaners can attack the throttle body surfaces and ruin them.
 
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