Need HELP Really BAD

Reply

  #1  
Old 06-10-03, 12:08 PM
Rhonda9491
Visiting Guest
Posts: n/a
Unhappy Need HELP Really BAD

Does anyone know anything about AC in a 93 Ford Areostar van
I had the AC redone at the local Ford Garage here where I live and it cost me 2000.00 dollars!!!!! and now it is in the shop again and they want another 400.00 and I just feel that I am getting totally robbed here. ok let me begin my story My compresser went out So we bought a new one ($300.00) and a friend of mine who is a AC tech tried to help me out, to say the least the system got contaminated and it needed to go to the Ford place to be done, flush the system ,replace parts ect. So I had this all done and they gave me a garentee for one year. (except on the compresser because we bot that ourselves) ok so The first time I picked up the Van they said they had the AC fixed But the Head pressure was really high. But they gave it back to me anyway,and I drove it. the AC lasted 2 days MAX So I took it back and they replaced stuff to make it work for awhile that is "couple weeks". then the 300.00 compresser they put in went again! So The Auto parts store that sold us the compresser gave us a new one we did not have to pay for that part again , Anyway they tell me now it needs another Orfice and Acumulator
of course these parts were already put on new from the last time but since the compresser went they are saying that it contaminated these parts again . AND of course since I bot my own compresser from an auto parts store, this is the compressers fault and we have to pay for all of this they won't Gaurentee any of the work . My Question is Could it be possible that the high head presser ruined the new compresser?? and my personal opinion on this is I do not beleive this job was done right to begin with. well I hope I gave anough information and if I didn't I can find out. Can someone help me???
 
Sponsored Links
  #2  
Old 06-10-03, 12:44 PM
Joe_F
Visiting Guest
Posts: n/a
Absolutely. A couple of things:

1) A/C work is not DIY repair. I'll say it once, iI've said it 100 times, I'll say it again. It is professional repair only. It requires tools, knowledge, know how and information. Only persons specifically qualified in A/C repair should do it. Unfortunately, this rules out a lot of DIY folk as they do not have the proper equipment to do the job right.

Your friend who did the work for you should know better .

2) Fords of this vintage have had a LOT of A/C problems. When the A/C requires repair on these, you change everything and leave nothing original. The compressor can shoot junk into the orifice wiping that out as well as other parts of the A/C system. That was probably the original problem.

Replacing parts in bits and pieces caused the new stuff to be contaminated, I'm buying that part.

3) Sure, if I was the shop, I'd warranty nothing. In fact, I'm suprised they took on the repair at all, knowing you'd be back and complain again that something was amiss . It is bad business to touch A/C systems where too many hands have been there .

4) If you fight hard enough, you might get another compressor from the auto parts store, although warranty policies are VERY strict nowadays on these things, since they know the deal with what's going on out there.


Good luck...
 
  #3  
Old 06-10-03, 02:46 PM
Member
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Pittsburgh,Pa
Posts: 2,417
If your van eats compressors there is a problem.Improper flushing can cause this but I think you have another problem.If your hi side pressure(head) increases too much the compressor grenades.Most of the time excessive hi side pressure is caused by system overcharge oil or refrigerant,hi side restiction,airflow blockage of a cooling fan problem.Some vehichles have hi pressure cutoff switches also.I don,t know the mileage on your van but I'm leaning on a fan problem or hi side restriction.
 
  #4  
Old 06-10-03, 06:28 PM
Rhonda9491
Visiting Guest
Posts: n/a
my van has over a hundred thousand miles on it. But just about everything under the hood is new replaced it part by part. I keep it because it runs great always has and I like it and I have no car payments I always beleived it is cheaper to maintain it than have all those outragous Car payments. But now I am starting to wonder but than I don't want to pay more a month for my car than I do my house I have friends that do that, never worked out well for them. thank you for all of your help I will definatly be thinking about all of this when I have to talk to the Ford place tomorrow,so anymore advice will be great
 
  #5  
Old 06-10-03, 08:19 PM
Lugnut's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Kansas City, Missouri.
Posts: 1,172
Dear Rhonda,

Did you, or someone else perhaps, ever put A/C stop leak products into your system before you ever took it to the shop for its first repair?
Please do not confuse 'stop leak' with 'leak detection', the later is only a dye.
 
  #6  
Old 06-10-03, 08:25 PM
Rhonda9491
Visiting Guest
Posts: n/a
nope we never did ,not that I know of . the AC always worked great till one day then it went
 
  #7  
Old 06-10-03, 10:11 PM
Lugnut's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Kansas City, Missouri.
Posts: 1,172
Hi Rhonda,

I see your up late night too.

In your first post, I quote, "...they said they had the AC fixed But the Head pressure was really high. But they gave it back to me anyway,..."

From your quote above, are you saying that:

1. You paid $2000 to a shop.
2. They replaced parts. ( I wonder what parts ?)
3. They honestly warned you that the head pressure was high.
4. You accepted the transaction by paying in full and leaving with your car.
5. The high head pressure soon damaged your system, as predicted by the repairmen.

If this is true, then what exactly is your complaint?


As for the cost of A/C repair, nowadays, it is an everyday occurrence to see repair estimates that equal or exceed the cost of the car. So if someone says it cost $2000 to fix, the decision to pay or not is up to the car owner. You walk into a business transaction like that with 'eyes wide open'.

In my loft at 221 Baker street, I begin my analysis....'Watson, the door please...'
In your story, it tends to sound like the repair shop did not repair the 'whole system'. This begs the question, "why not?". A/C repair is generally a 'whole system' evaluation and repair. Had they replaced ALL the major components of the system, then I am sure the compressor, regardless of where it was purchased, would have worked fine. However, it is apparent to me that the repairmen were not instructed to repair the entire system, for whatever reason given by the customer. The evidence is in the fact that the repairment informed you that the head pressure was high. That warning would never happen after a total system repair. Furthermore, you accepted the warning, paid the bill and left with your car. The grocery receipt found in your front seat reveals that you in fact, did not return home, but instead, went shopping.

In truth, it sounds like, (with the advice of your well meaning a/c tech friend) you bought a compressor and begged the shop to 'evacuate (post edited from the word flush) the system, change the compressor, and charge the system'. If this is not so, why else would a shop return your car to you with a warning that it will fail? They were clearly not instructed (paid) to perform a complete repair. I think you played a gambit to save money, but the dice were against you. To be fair, you might have gotten lucky by replacing the compressor, thus winning the gambit, but it did not end that way. I think this hand has played out. Summarily, I do not perceive the repair shop to be at fault, nor do I believe you will be compensated for the a/c failure.

You are not alone in trying to beat the cost of a/c repair, but the fact is that a/c repair can cost as much as the car itself. Many people are learning this hard lesson each year.

If I have clumsily misunderstood your story, I apologize.

Sher-lug Roams
 

Last edited by Lugnut; 06-11-03 at 04:29 AM.
  #8  
Old 06-11-03, 12:00 AM
cheese's Avatar
Forum Topic Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: USA
Posts: 16,814
The thing that grabs my attention is that they guaranteed it for 1 year. If they were instructed to do a quick, incomplete repair, then why would they warranty the work? If they were instructed to "fix my air conditioner", and you paid for whatever they said you needed, and gave it to you with a 1 year guarantee, then I would tend to believe they performed an entire AC system service...especially since the mention of a new accumulator and orfice. My question is..who installed the orfice and accumulator? The guy trying to help, or the dealer? If it was the dealer, then I would hold them responsible for an improper AC repair...especially since they told you ahead of time that the head pressure was high. (which will, in fact, ruin a compressor).

I suppose if you were trained in ac repair, you would have known what was meant by "high head pressure", but that is greek and meaningless to most folks. Some people actually think that is a good thing..(lots of pressure=cold air), but it is not. A little more detail about who did what to the van, and what they were asked to do, would clarify things a bit.
 
  #9  
Old 06-11-03, 04:38 AM
Rhonda9491
Visiting Guest
Posts: n/a
ok The only thing My friend the AC tech did was try to install the compresser and then it went right to the shop AND I TOLD THEM TO FIX THE ENTIRE SYSTEM!!!!!!!!! I did not care what it cost ! They gave me a Garentee because they did the entire system even the compresser was new they enstalled it ! BUT I bought the part, the first compresser we sent back and got a new one for them to start fresh with because they said the other one my friend the AC tech tried to put in was not gonna work. and how the Heck am I serpose to know what high head presser is?????? I have no clue that is why I am here trying to find out this stuff, they told me when they gave it back that they did not know why the head presser was high but the AC is working. what can ya do??? well it is in the shop now and when it gets out again and it blows another compresser cause the idiots do not know what the heck they are doing I am sure my legal studies will come in handy
 
  #10  
Old 06-11-03, 05:18 AM
Lugnut's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Kansas City, Missouri.
Posts: 1,172
Hi Rhonda,

In an effort to try and get you some 'helpful' infomation, here are a few things you need to know before confronting the repair shop. By the way, the shop already knows these things, so this information is for you.

Whenever a compressor is replaced, it is a reasonable practice to perform the following items at a minimum;

1. Replace the accumulator and orifice.
2. Flush the A/C system to dislodge and remove the obstruction.
3. Add proper oil charge to the new compressor. The compressor is sold only with enought lubricant to protect it while on the shelf.
4. Install the new compressor.
5. Pull a vacuum, charge the system.

Step 2 above, flushing the system, traditionally works on many cars. However, the newer serpentine condensers and the newer 'plate and fin' condensers have very small passages that make the job of flushing more risky than the older designs because one cannot be 100 percent certain that the condenser is completely flushed clean. Therefore, it is becoming more and more common to replace the condenser when the compressor fails. The replacement is an expensive repair and the repair shop is in the difficult position of presenting this option to the car owner.

If the repair shop recommended flushing the system, or recommended replacing the condenser, and you refused, then the repair shop can not be help responsible for subsequent failures to the system. Look at your first repair bill to see if you paid for a 'flush' or 'new condensor'. If it's not in writing on your bill, you will likely not be compensated. However, I do believe that the squeaky wheel gets the grease, so don't let me dissuade you from making your own case to the repair shop.

I hope that little bit of info is helpful to you.
 
  #11  
Old 06-11-03, 06:00 AM
Joe_F
Visiting Guest
Posts: n/a
If I remember correctly, this era Aerostar has an FX15 style compressor. These are junk and when they grenade, everything in the system goes with it. Consequently, EVERYTHING is wasted with debris, the condenser, orifice tube, lines, etc. Replacement of just about everything is what usually cures the problem. On some vehicles, it's worth more than the actual vehicle.

One thing that will cause a problem for you in getting recourse: You provided a compressor which was installed by someone other than the shop. They will argue, and rightly so, that the compressor you installed was not of their supply; hence it could be of poor quality, or it could have been installed wrong, etc. The compressor could have been defective and polluted the system again.

Installing the compressor "saved" you very little unfortunately, because it is far from a complete repair in any way, shape or form.

While I agree with Lugnut about some investigation into the turn of events here, one statement strikes me. You said to the shop to fix it at all costs so to speak. What was recommended by the shop at the time? As mentioned did you refuse any parts that were recommended? If you did, the problem lies there . They will argue, "Well we told the customer the vehicle required X,Y and Z and she refused".

Let's start this from the beginning:

1) Tell us what happened, step by step in order.
2) What did the first shop do? Who was it? A dealer or independent? What did you tell them to do? What does their invoice say?
3) At one point, you brought it to Ford. What did they tell you? What does their bill state? What did they recommend? What did you refuse?

All of these questions will help determine if there is recourse on your part. Right off the bat, installing a compressor from an outside source and bringing it to a shop is grounds for a red flag to a shop. Most don't like systems which have had hands in there before.
 
  #12  
Old 06-11-03, 07:05 AM
Rhonda9491
Visiting Guest
Posts: n/a
ok I did not refuse anything and I did tell them if they could not do the job or did not want to do the job to please let me know and I would of traded it in if I would of known this was going to be a nightmare. the place it is being fixed is the same place I bought it from.it is A Ford dealership in a small town in Florida They do all repairs there sell cars detail cars they do it all. I will come back with more info I have to dig out my papers. and I have to call my service Rep. oh joy oh joy talk to you all later
 
  #13  
Old 06-11-03, 09:00 AM
Joe_F
Visiting Guest
Posts: n/a
What's a little odd is that your friend who is the A/C tech just installed the compressor and then had you go somewhere else to have it serviced???? Some friend

1) My compresser went out So we bought a new one ($300.00) and a friend of mine who is a AC tech tried to help me out, to say the least the system got contaminated----------

--Here's the start of the problem. When a compressor goes bad on these, it wipes out the system with junk. Also, it's beyond me why your friend who is a supposed A/C tech would install a compressor and tell you to go elsewhere to have it fixed!

2) and it needed to go to the Ford place to be done, flush the system ,replace parts ect. So I had this all done and they gave me a garentee for one year. (except on the compresser because we bot that ourselves)

---What was guaranteed? Parts and labor? Only parts? What "parts" were changed by Ford? The warranty probably excludes abuse and "circumstances beyond their control" which they will defintely assess the original compressor was. It's very easy for them to say that your compressor wiped out and ruined the system again. They cannot warrantee that a compressor that is not sold/manufactured by Ford/Motorcraft will work to the standards that the one that they would install would.

It's like going to the doctor with your own medicine, asking the doctor to give you the medicine or treatment and then yelling at him when it doesn't work

3)then the 300.00 compresser they put in went again!

Is this same compressor you originally installed or is it the same part # replacement from the parts store again? Or is it a part the dealer put on? Seems that there never has been a Ford compressor on this vehicle.

4)AND of course since I bot my own compresser from an auto parts store, this is the compressers fault and we have to pay for all of this they won't Gaurentee any of the work

---Sure, I agree with that. I won't guarantee parts I didn't install or supply. Nor would I warranty parts I've installed when your installed parts wipe them out .

Let's see what your repair invoices state.
 
  #14  
Old 06-11-03, 03:05 PM
maadi_griffin
Visiting Guest
Posts: n/a
glad i don't bring my car to some of you guys!! she has a 1 year warranty on the work the Ford dealer had done. regardless ifshe took it with alleged "hi-head pressure" or whatever else they claimed...THEY allowed her to drive it away with THEIR 1 year warranty.
bring it back and DEMAND that they fix it right at NO cost to you...period. if they claim they will not fix it, then go to the service manager, then the owner. if still not satisfied, you have several other paths to walk.
regardless if your friend installed the compressor, when the dealer accepted your car with all the info they now accepted the responsibility of repairing it. you told them before hand about the new compressor and you asked them to correct the a/c system and they agreed.
as far as being a "vintage" car...i own an '81 corvette and the air will freeze your nose off. MHO only.
 
  #15  
Old 06-11-03, 08:29 PM
Lugnut's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Kansas City, Missouri.
Posts: 1,172
Maadi_griffin,

I apologize if this thread sounds to you as though we are treating the customer in this case, unfairly. Rather, we are spending time and effort to help explain why repairwork and customer expectations are so vastly different.

If fact I could even agree with you when I quote you,,,"...you asked them (the dealer) to correct the a/c system and they agreed. .." If that statement were true, then of course, it would be obvious that the warranted work should be honored.

However, after reading the many posts above, I believe the facts suggest otherwise, thus we have an displeased consumer who is seriously asking for some objective advice. Personally, I would feel negligent if I did not render my honest opinion based on my experience with auto repair. Given the facts, in so far as we know them, the warranty given by the dealer would have been limited to his craftsmanship in replacing 'specified' parts.

The idea that a repairman will replace only 1 part, but then warranty the entire A/C system is a modern day consumer misconception. That is not sound economics. I sometimes wish that were the case because I might still be driving my 65 Mustang today. If every minor repair could result in a major warranty reward, then I might own several classic cars.

Please don't mistake Joe's reference to 'vintage' to mean 'an old car'. The word used hear, as is everywhere else, always means 'the year it was made'. It's a discriptive term for both the reader and the writer. More over, I like the razzle dazzle sound of it myself.

I trust that when the day comes, although you can't bring your car to us, you may bring your questions and concerns to this forum. Until then, if your A/C is as cold as you say, then maybe we could pick up a six-pack and drive the chevy to the levy.
 
  #16  
Old 06-11-03, 08:43 PM
msargent's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 469
My cents...
The way I read your posts was that the second compressor was provided by you, given to the ford dealership for them to install...
After installing your compressor for you, along with the accumulator, and oriface tube, they service the system, and at that time, had the system cooling well, but high head pressure.
First, (in my opinion) they should not have offered a guarantee if they weren't willing to stand behind someone elses parts. You should have been clearly explained this up front. If they are willing to offer a guaratee, then they are responsible for the entire job, for the 1 year they put in writting.
Second, a qualified tech should have been able to find the cause of the high head pressure problem and offer a solution to it. A faulty fan clutch (mounted on the water pump shaft) is a common cause of high head pressure. If your van has rear A/C, that part usually has an expansion valve and can actually be clogged during the flushing procedure. To properly flush the system, those lines/connections back there need to be undone, flushed, and then recoupled with new o-rings.
If this isn't done, high head pressure can result.
General info- As best I can remember, Ford did away with oriface tubes, and went to a liquid line (serves the same purpose). The cost is quite a bit different..Oriface tube, $7.00-$8.00 Liquid Line $30.00-$50.00
I'd want to know why they want to change the accumulator again.
What part of the compressor failed this time?

City to city, state to state, shop to shop labor rates and parts vary, but in all my years, I've never ran up a $2000.00 A/C job.. Sounds very high to me..I think the "best" I've ever managed is $1200-$1300 and we get $68.00 per hour...
 
  #17  
Old 06-11-03, 11:01 PM
cheese's Avatar
Forum Topic Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: USA
Posts: 16,814
What I gather is this:

Your friend tried to help you by attempting, unsuccessfully, to install a new compressor. For whatever reason, he did not finish the job, and you took the van to the dealer.

The dealer says that the current compressor that your friend TRIED to install was not correct, and you exchanged it for another new one that is correct for the van.

You instructed the dealer to fix whatever needed fixing, and THEY installed the compressor and performed an AC system service and repair.

They gave you the van back, acknowledging that the head pressure was high, but they didn't know why, and gave you a 1 year warranty.

Now the compressor is wasted again.

Is this accurate?

If so, the dealer owes you the repair. Sure, they don't want to warranty a compressor that is not theirs, but they gave you the van back with a problem (high head pressure). The high head pressure is what ruined the compressor most likely, so it is their fault that your AC is not working again. They can't expect you to know what high head pressure is, or the consequences of it, and even if you did know...they shouldn't have let it out of the shop like that.

As mentioned, a real tech would have found out why the head pressure was high, and fixed the problem. No one should have let you have the van like that after being asked to "fix the AC no matter what is needed".

Don't let them take advantage of you.
 
  #18  
Old 06-12-03, 03:47 AM
maadi_griffin
Visiting Guest
Posts: n/a
as with any forum, words get "misconstrued", either for better or worse. i was just trying to say that if, in fact the dealer gave a 1 year warranty, AND knew that the head pressure was high when she drove the car away, then THEY are at fault.
i think everyone here gave very good advice on the facts(?) as they were presented, but, i do agree that $2000 is extremely high. it sounds to me (as per the facts given originally) that the dealer took advanatge of the lady. in this case, they might get caught in their own game. i humbly apologize for any misinterpretations of statements.
however, the six pack sounds like a good idea.
 
  #19  
Old 06-12-03, 05:24 AM
Lugnut's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Kansas City, Missouri.
Posts: 1,172
Miller lite in a bottle
 
  #20  
Old 06-12-03, 08:52 AM
Joe_F
Visiting Guest
Posts: n/a
Original poster:

Please lay out the facts in better order for us. We have varied accounts of what has transpired here. LOL
 
Reply

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Display Modes