A/C PAG oil and such...

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  #1  
Old 06-26-03, 07:09 PM
smokeydoge
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Question A/C PAG oil and such...

Hello. I'm swapping the compressor on a 96 Chevy Astro van, 4.3L, and have a few questitions :

The compressor is dry- which oil do I use ?? I saw 150 and 34 (I think, maybe 43 ??) ?? Pour out the old and use that same amount (+ an ounce ??) ??

Also, do I want to shoot any in with the charge (134 system from the factory, btw) ??

Anything else you would like to add would be appreciated !! I did get an accumulator and orfice tube, too.

Thanks.
Smokey
 
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  #2  
Old 06-26-03, 07:12 PM
darrell McCoy
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A/C repair, etc, is not for anyone other than a qualified A/C tech.
Guessing and trial and error can get you into a WOS big time.
 
  #3  
Old 06-26-03, 07:27 PM
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The new compressor should list oil instructions.If the old compressor took a poop the system needs flushed.You have a new accumulator and orifice tube thats good.Just remember in addition to flushing you need to add oil for replaced components and flushed components.Don't add extra oil.that will displace the refrigerant causing higher pressures and less cooling.The warranty requires the steps I've mentioned,btw check for leaks so you don't have to start all over.
 
  #4  
Old 06-26-03, 07:29 PM
smokeydoge
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Sorry I don't meet your *standard* there, Darrell. Please tell me which part I missed.
This isn't my first ac job, just the first time I've started dry. I know there are different oils, so I ask those that should know. I added the filters cuz you never know who you're dealing with, someone with zero experience, some experience, etc. should I have added the evac ?? Pressures ??
Please, enlighten me as to how one passes such judgements ??

I'd still like to hear from anyone that would like to help.
Thanks.
Smokey
 
  #5  
Old 06-26-03, 07:39 PM
smokeydoge
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Thanks, Davo. Didn't see your reply !!!

The compressor bit it, and I planned a dye. The extra ounce was for displaced oil- think that's too much ?? The new compressor doesn't state- it says refer to the service manual. Haynes doesn't help...

Thanks.
Smokey
 
  #6  
Old 06-27-03, 02:03 AM
Joe_F
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Darrell is correct. (Davo gave you good advice too)

If you are using a Haynes manual to repair a vehicle, STOP! Here is your problem.

As Darrell noted, AC jobs require the proper tools, know-how, and service information to get right. That includes the proper service manual for the vehicle. Haynes "ain't" it.
 
  #7  
Old 06-27-03, 06:36 AM
darrell McCoy
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smokeydoge: I did not mean to question your ability on A/C repairs. I too, know about A/C repair, but no longer have access to the diagnostic equip, manuals, etc. That is why just last week I had a new compressor installed on my GMC by a dealer. Parts $450 plus $70 labor. 12 mo or 12000 warranty. Labor and parts.
 
  #8  
Old 06-27-03, 08:16 AM
Dan Meyer
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smokeydoge,
I sometimes don't agree with some responses that state it's too complicated for a person to try to do himself - how else can a person learn???
I hope this helps:
On a GM vehicle with a HD6/HR6 compressor here are the amounts
The entire system(without rear a/c) holds approx 240 ml of PAG oil
60 ml for the compressor
105 ml for the accumulator
90 ml for the evaporator
30 ml for the condensor
This assumes that the above components are new and completely void of oil.
Adding up the above is more than 240 ml. the reason for this is that it's taking into account the fact that when the system was discharged, oil in the freon was lost with the freon and that only one or two of the individual parts are replaced and not the entire system.
 
  #9  
Old 06-27-03, 08:56 AM
Joe_F
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I sometimes don't agree with some responses that state it's too complicated for a person to try to do himself - how else can a person learn???
----

By buying the proper tools, having the knowhow (reading books on the subject, taking courses) and the proper service information to do it.

In the same fashion you trust a doctor with your medical health, you should trust a mechanic or yourself ONLY with the right tools, equipment and know how.

You wouldn't do surgery on yourself .

There is FAR more to A/C repair than replacing parts. Again, refrigerant can and WILL blind you if you do an improper repair.

Original poster: Please detail what service information and A/C tools you are using. The Haynes manual will not cut it here...
 
  #10  
Old 06-27-03, 04:37 PM
smokeydoge
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Thumbs up

Thanks for all the replies, guys. I think maybe I could have taken things different, but...it's just not my nature. sorry. Anyway-

Darrell, I agree with you that some folks just shouldn't some things outside their abilities. But, I'm not a guessing mech and will quickly say when something's outside my abilities or knowledge. but I don't just swap till I get it right....

Joe, I'm not using a manual at all. I just took a look inside a Haynes at the auto parts store to see if they had it listed. I have a ton of manuals- guess I've been collecting for 20+ years ??- but I rarely use them anymore.

Dan, thank you, Sir. That's the info I was looking for.

Well, that and- which pag ?? Nothing on the new compressor tells me, the vehicle doesn't tell me. There was a specific pag to begin with- how do I know which it was ?? that's the only other thing I'm looking for. Oh, and about how much would y'all recommend to account for for loss ?? Is an ounce reasonable (someone told me this somewhere) ??

Joe- tools ?? I started collecting them, and actually started spinning them with my dad at 12 (not too seriously at first, of course, but we all started somewhere. I also took three years in school- got bumped to advanced-auto middle of my first year). I may not have the selection you do, but I have everything for just about anything. A rollaway + top box of basics, plus a lower unit of pullers, clamps, specialty tools. A wall unit with delicates- gauges (yes, joe, even ac pressure gauges), calipers, mics, squares, levels..... I've never been a professional auto mechanic, btw. I AM a professional mech- building and battery and electric machines. Autos have always been my side. quite successfully, I might add. I must be doing something right. they keep coming back and referring their friends and family. Some jobs I won't take...I just haven't come across it yet !! Oh yeah- once. freeze plugs. told him I'd be more expensive than the vehicle was worth !!!

Anyway, thanks again, and WHICH PAG ?!!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?
thanks, guys.
Smokey
 
  #11  
Old 06-27-03, 04:44 PM
smokeydoge
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WAIT !! I forgot-

maybe someone can 'cipher this for me, got it off the decal on the shroud :

Synthetic oil # 12345923 or equivilant. It also has a purple-colored band and 60/69 on the decal.

Hope that helps.

thanks.
Smokey
 
  #12  
Old 06-27-03, 05:31 PM
Dan Meyer
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The number 12345923 is the GM part No. for the oil. I have no idea what the other number is. the proper viscosity of the oil should be ISO 100.
If the freon in the system was ABRUPTLY discharged, then add 90 ml to make up for the oil lost with the freon. If not, then no additional oil need be added other than what I listed for each new part replaced.
 
  #13  
Old 06-27-03, 07:19 PM
smokeydoge
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Dan, thank you. The info I was looking for.

I appreciate everyone's help, and really am sorry if I stirred up any animosity among the ranks. It certainly wasn't my intention.

I'm really digging the site, now that I've poked around a little. really nice place ya got here.

Thanks for all the help.
Smokey
 
  #14  
Old 06-27-03, 07:41 PM
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Pag 150 GM's, Pag 46 Fords Duraflush 141 for flushing the system before reassembly...
Personally, I add directly to the compressor, before installing, directly into the dryer bottle before installing, and if possible, directly into the evap and condensor, if not, I shoot it in after pulling the vaccum, before the freon..And do recommend following the part in the instructions about rotating the clutch assembly approximately 15 times by "hand" (spanner wrench suggested) before installing it.. Saves the from seal..
BTW, if you haven't used it before, duraflush is good, but very volitole..especially in the heat/humidity we've had going the last couple of days..
 
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Old 06-27-03, 08:26 PM
smokeydoge
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Thumbs up

Thanks, Sargent.

 
  #16  
Old 06-28-03, 06:16 AM
Joe_F
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A/C repair requires special tools to do right. At minimum:

Flush gun, vacuum pump, A/C gauges, leak dectector, and pyrometer as well as appropriate service information. That's if you want to fix it right all the time, and do it safely. It makes no sense to fix an AC system with a leak. Leaks come in the worst of places too .

Sounds like you've got a good selection of tools as do many folks. I can tell you a good service manual is worth every penny and should be the first thing you do before a repair.

Case in point: My ignition key buzzer never worked on my 1979 Trans Am. Consulted the service manual as to why. "Ground the E & F connector at the chassis wiring. If the buzzer sounds, the fault is in the column. First, check the buzzer switch for compromised contacts".

Did as the manual said. Found the problem in five minutes. As the manual correctly stated, the buzzer switch contacts were bent. 3 bucks for a new Delco piece and bingo, working Pontiac buzzer.

I have a room full of manuals, I consult them EACH and EVERY time before I do a repair.
 
  #17  
Old 06-29-03, 08:36 PM
smokeydoge
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Thanks to those that helped, the job went great, no problems, a/c kicks ass, happy owner . Much bigger job than I anticipated (never did a dual-unit !!), however, but it's all standard fair- take your time, keep it clean, pay attention.

I read the other post that got moved- Thanks to you that supported me- of course we're right and Joe's a dummie !!

Joe, you're not going to change my mind and I'm not going to change yours. I think you're narrow-minded and assume too much. Again, you don't know me, my experience, what tools I have, if I have the desire or ability to purchase the tools I don't have to properly do the job (I always do)- I could go on, but what's the point ?? The manual-issue: Dude, give it a rest. I've got a stack, yes, even a few factory manuals and even assembly manuals. I don't need to consult them for every job, except occasionaly for torque specs (not often), wiring (not often), or some off the wall problem. I try to retain my 20+ years of auto work knowledge for future reference. Manuals are invaluable, I agree, but I'm not doing computer-work here, I'm fixing the freaking a/c. I just wanted to know what freaking pag oil to use , and you come back to take it to someone else ?? The other questions were to see what other people do- I've heard guys say all sorts of things over the years, I was just looking for other views. Not too much to ask...

I'm just going to leave it at that. This could go on forever and it's pointless. Thanks to everyone that helped. Think I'll hang out and learn some more !!!


Smokeydoge
 
  #18  
Old 06-30-03, 04:38 AM
Joe_F
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SmokeyD:

You have a lot to learn about working on vehicles, chief. You've TOTALLY misread the point here. In fact, you got lucky, nothing more.

Your lack to consult a manual or even solicit proper service information scares me. If every tech in the field thought this way, repairs would be done by trial and error.

Sorry, I don't work this way. Sorry, professionals don't work this way. Sorry, avid do it yourselfers don't work this way. Novices do.

Before you jump up and down think about what you are saying:

1) If you go to your doctor for some pain and he says, "Yup it's in your head, seen it a 1000 times before" and proceeds to take your head apart only to find out that previous documents in a journal show that pain in the shoulder CAUSES it to go into the head, then he hasn't fixed the problem, he's fixed the symptom.

As I said, car work is akin to medical diagnosis. Same thing. Symptom, problem, research, diagnosis, plan, procedure, action, test/follow up. Same idea. Treat it as such. You'll become a better do it yourselfer when you do.

I don't trust my doctor if he doesn't have the latest and best information to treat me, I surely won't work on my car without it. The A/C in my 84 Delta 88 has been like a meat locker for 6+ years, on the ORIGINAL parts. It involved thorough research for an R12 replacement and service. Cost? 35 bucks at that time.

2) If what you say about repair information is true, then factory TSBs and manuals should be thrown out the window. First thing a dealer does for ANY problem that comes through? Might also look through Ebay and stuff and see why the factory manuals net $100 or more USED.

Checks the TSBs and factory literature. So should you. Saves time. Saves money. Does the repair right.

3) I agree, but I'm not doing computer-work here, I'm fixing the freaking a/c.

---That statement scares me, dude. The A/C system requires you know what you're doing for a lasting repair. You may have gotten lucky this time, who knows. Doesn't mean you did it efficiently, safe or properly.

When I effect a repair, I effect it correctly. "Saving" $100 on a factory manual to spend hours figuring it out without it is a waste of time.

Even more so when I paid $15 for the manual for one of my cars! I have the same information the factory does. Well, if that makes us pros "dummies", so be it. I'll take the word of the guy that built and engineered the car .

In short, luck may be on your side, but knowledge should be too.

I've got it in my arsenal .
 
  #19  
Old 06-30-03, 09:13 AM
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Actually,Haynes does make an A/C specific manual which is pretty good. It includes capacities for most Autos, desired pressure ranges and a fairly good trouble shooting section. It won't tell you how to get to the part on your vehicle, it assumes you know. It gives good info for a home mechanic that has the proper tools.

I know that environmental regs are a concern, and all of us would hate for someone to get hurt because of system pressures not being handled correctly. But with the rates the A/C shops charge ( and many around here are rip-off artists) I think we should try to help the guys that are willing to try. They should be made to understand the dangers they're facing. Better to get the info here, from guys that know than from the blowhard down the street!
Just my $.02
 
  #20  
Old 06-30-03, 11:16 AM
Joe_F
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Actually,Haynes does make an A/C specific manual which is pretty good. It includes capacities for most Autos, desired pressure ranges and a fairly good trouble shooting section

-----

Which is taken from the OEM shop manual . Considering that I paid $15 for the manual and it's good for everything on the car, I'd say it was a good value.

I don't mind helping someone who has the tools, the literature and the willingness to use them. When you outright refuse to spend any money to do the job right, now I've got a problem.

Bottom line: Original poster has "fixed" his vehicle in his own method. No telling how the repair was effected, longevity or safety of said repair. Post closed .
 
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