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1991 Cadillac Deville Starting problem


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07-26-03, 08:57 PM   #1  
leart3
1991 Cadillac Deville Starting problem

I hae a 1991 Cadillac Deville, when the weather is hot and I drive it about 10 miles stop turn the Engine off and come back about 1/2 hour later it act as if it diesn't want to start. It act as if the battery is down, but I have checked the battery and even recharged it to make sure. I have had any repairs done to it, and i've had this pro blem for several years. I don't have this problem much in the Winter or when the wether is cool. It seems when the wether is cool, whatever is heating up cools off quicker.

leart3

 
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07-26-03, 11:10 PM   #2  
knuckles
Sounds like a heat related starter problem. Many auto parts stores will test your battery/alternator/starter for free.

You might want to take it in when it's hot outside & have the above checked.

Also...does your car have an aftermarket security system or remote start system? I've seen a few of these fail & provide less than 8 volts to the starter solenoid when cranking.

 
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07-27-03, 08:04 AM   #3  
Joe_F
I agree with Knuckles.

 
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07-27-03, 04:50 PM   #4  
leart3
Knuckles:

No I don't have a Security System or a Remote Starting Devise.

Several Mechanics have indicated a starter Problem without checking it, but I also heard someplace that the problem could be in the Electronic Ignition.

leart3

 
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07-27-03, 05:37 PM   #5  
knuckles
Electronic ignition has nothing to do with the starter circuit. It provides spark to the spark plugs. You could completely remove the ignition system from the car and the starter would still crank.

The only way to tell if a starter is bad is to test it. I suggest you drive it & get it good & hot. Then take it to your local autoparts store or shop & ask them to test it. Get the battery tested at the same time. Some autoparts stores will do this for free, others will charge a fee.

 
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07-27-03, 05:39 PM   #6  
leart3
Joe_F.

I checked that Website out, and it offers some good information, but I think you would have to be a Mechanic to understand, and you would also have to have a Manufacturers Repair Manual in front of you. I'm looking for something that decribes the possible problem in layman's terms. I'll refer to it periodically, and maybe after a while i'll be able to absorb some of the contents to do me some good. Thanks.

leart3

 
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07-27-03, 05:55 PM   #7  
leart3
Knuckles:

I had an ignition shop check that out about two years ago, and they indicated that the system seems to have been putting out the right amount, but he wanted me to bring it back and leave the car for a whole day for him to check it out, but I never did. Another thing, about 6 or 8 months ago after I had been driving for an hour or more I parked the car, and came back 15 minutes later and the car was dead, wouldn't start, so I had it towed in and the Mechanic indicated that the Alternator was not putting out the proper AMP's so he changed it, and the car started alright, but I continued to have that problem with it not starting right away after I have driven it for a while, but it eventually will start after the second try. I'll check with the Auto Parts guy's to see what they say. Thanks.

leart3

 
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07-27-03, 07:31 PM   #8  
Joe_F
Autolibrary is about as simple as it gets if you're going to attempt the repairs.....

I'm not clear on the problem. When this issue occurs, will the car not crank? Will it crank and the engine won't run? It runs and stalls?

That will determine where the actual problem is. I agree with Knuckles.

 
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07-28-03, 11:43 AM   #9  
leart3
After I drive for a 1/2 hour or 45 minutes and turn the ingine off, come back in 15 minutes and try to restart, the ingine will not turnover the first try, but it starts after the second try and runs normally. On the first attempt I get a, Grr, grr like the battery is low, but as I indicated before this usually happens when the weaqther is hot. during the winter (since the car cools off quicker) it dosen't happen as often.

In reference to the autolibrary.org, I didn't go to that webside, I just clicked on the link you had in your post. Are you saying this is two different websites, or 3 when alldata is included. I'll try that autolibrary.org by putting that addy directly into the locator in the browser. The Site I went to made referrence to things like "passkey", "Relay #2" , a layman would have to know what those items are and where they can be found and what they look like. I would have to find a manual and research a diagram, and be able to read the diagram.

leart3

 
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07-28-03, 01:55 PM   #10  
Joe_F
If you are stating you have a "dead battery" syndrome, your charging system could be at fault, or more likely, you have a faulty connection.

Get it to a GOOD auto electrical shop and have them duplicate the problem. They should be able to find the problem and rectify it quickly.

 
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07-28-03, 06:57 PM   #11  
leart3
Joe_F:

As I indicated in an earlier Post, I had an ignition Shop check it out and everything was functioning properly. They wanted me to leave the car for a day or so, but I didn't take it back, but at the time they check it, the battery, alternator and the starter all had good out puts.

leart3

 
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07-29-03, 03:57 AM   #12  
Joe_F
Either the shop wasn't good, or you didn't give them a chance!

The problem MUST occur for them to be able to fix it. If they cannot duplicate it, they will change parts and that will get expen$ive.

Let them have the car for a day or so to diagnose it and see what they find.

 
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07-29-03, 09:11 AM   #13  
Have someone check your base ignition timing. A difficult start (sounds like slow starter motor) only on a warm engine could be due to the ignition timing being too far advanced. The computer will grab the timing as soon as the engine starts which will make it run fine.

 
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07-29-03, 02:49 PM   #14  
It seems as though you have grown acustomed to this problem after 2 years of not fixing it and do not wish to have the complete electrical system tested.I f I were a betting man and I'M not I would replace the starter because the battery would have gone belly up by now.

 
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07-29-03, 07:00 PM   #15  
leart3
Originally posted by dirty dan
Have someone check your base ignition timing. A difficult start (sounds like slow starter motor) only on a warm engine could be due to the ignition timing being too far advanced. The computer will grab the timing as soon as the engine starts which will make it run fine.
The Ignition Man check various area in the Starting process, so I don't know if it included the "Ignition Timing" or not, but I don't think he was able to duplicate the problem. I was checking the Repair History of this Model on that Link that Joe_F gave me, and there seem to be a problem with the Ignition Switch that can cause this Intimitent Starting Problem, but the process of checking it out seem to require an individual with an advanced Automotive background. Anyway, I'll keep that ignition timing factor in mind when I decide to get it checked out. It seems as if there is more technology than I can handle. Thanks.

leart3

 
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07-29-03, 07:09 PM   #16  
leart3
Davo:

It has been at least 2 years, maybe 3 or 4, but a wearing Starter was recommended by the first and second mechanic I discussed it with, but neither checked it out. Early on I even Charged the Battery a few times before I began to realize that the battery was ok. I even Purchased a new battery a few years ago, because the other one was about 36 or 48 months old, but I soon realized that that wasn't the problem.

leart3

 
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07-29-03, 07:14 PM   #17  
leart3
Joe_F:

As I indicated above, I don't remember them being able to duplicate the problem, and in my case leaving the Car for a whole day would be a big inconvience. I can only do that if I have to, and that's usually if the Car quits, and then I'll have no choice.

leart3

 
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07-29-03, 07:41 PM   #18  
Joe_F
Again, they must be able to duplicate the problem and you have to give them a chance to do so.

They could just start changing parts, but that won't accomplish anything and you'll spend more than this car would ever be worth by doing so.

Let a GOOD shop have a look at the problem for you. Leave the car with them a day or so, giving them a chance to track down the problem. Beyond that, deal with it as is.

 
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08-04-03, 10:51 AM   #19  
leart3
What you indicated is a consideration, but what initially concerned with is contacting someone that has had experience with this specific problem, and know what causes it, and can go directly to the defective device confirm that it's defective and replace or repair it. It's my experience that certain problems on specific models are not unique, and that they have occured many times before and many mechanics are aware of the problem, or that the problem is so common that it's listed in their basic troubleshooting manyal. Many mechanical problem don't or shouldn't require a long drawn-out testing procedure that you would normally expect from a trainee. Most active repair shops experience certain problems time and time again, so they don't have to do a lot of testing and tying up someones Car. They do it in some cases to pad or inflate their fee. So first of all I try to find someone who knows what the problem is rather than having to look for it. The experienced mechanics. You leave yourself wide open to get ripped-off when you leave you car for someone to spend several days to inspect it

leart3

 
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08-04-03, 11:16 AM   #20  
Joe_F
A good shop doesn't have to pad the bill---they can make enough money diagnosing and fixing the problem correctly. That is what we are all stating!

Each vehicle is different. The 1991 Deville he worked on last week is different than yours. Each car has different maintenance history, problems, driver habits, etc. There ARE some patterned failures. Not all shops know which cars have what.

However, neither precludes good solid, diagnosis. A shop with a wiring diagram of the system can inspect wires and have a look at things to see if anything's amiss. Batteries can be load tested, alternators tested as well as drains checked. There are tools to assist the technician, but nothing replaces the technician in any way.

Bottom line: If you refuse to leave it with a shop that will take the time to duplicate the problem, ya "ain't" fixing it. You'll spend money on parts that are not the problem.

Good shops diagnose, they don't change parts.

 
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08-04-03, 11:40 AM   #21  
knuckles
The doctor has no way of knowing what's wrong with you w/o doing some basic tests. The same holds true for the technician.

You're free to roll the dice & replace the starter if you don't want to pay for a proper diagnosis.


Last edited by twelvepole; 08-04-03 at 05:16 PM.
 
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08-04-03, 02:24 PM   #22  
darrell McCoy
Buddy of mine had a similar problem 96 deville and ended up replacing ignition swx. There were times the starter wouldnt even Grrr. Took the caddy place a while to find the problem. Dont know what they installed but it sure does not seem to be like the OEM swx.

 
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08-04-03, 04:14 PM   #23  
leart3
As I indicated before, many Auto Problems are not unique to one Automobile, and an experienced Mechanic has work on the same problem, and Repaired it many times. Especially if it's the Dealer of that type Vehicle. For my own personal situation I have always "waited" on the Car to be tested. Many years ago I took a Deville to the dealer for them to diagnose a problem. The Mechanic Put the Car in the Stall, raised the Hood, checked it for 15 or 20 minutes, went and worked on another Car, came back 3 hours later and told me what was wrong with my Car and Charged me 3 hours labor for diagognosing the problem. That was a situation that I was able to observe. The Mechanic did that as I was sitting there watching him. What do you think he would have done if I had left the car for 2 days? There is more fraud in Automobile Repairs than anything else that I know. Everybody knows that.

leart3

 
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08-04-03, 04:46 PM   #24  
knuckles
Should your doctor apply the same theory when diagnosing your medical problems?

Many medical problems are not unique to any one individual. Using your reasoning, whatever is wrong with the last 3 guys who presented the same symptoms MUST be what's wrong with you. Do you gamble with your health like that?

Again, there's no way for anyone to KNOW what's wrong with your car unless they're able to test the component or system in question.

As far as fraud is concerned:

There's fraud in every industry. Ask any insurance claims adjuster.

Yes, the auto repair industry has its share of ripoff artists and scumbags. Does that mean that all shops are bad and must be avoided? I don't think so.

Why not find a shop you can trust, and establish a friendly relationship with the owner/manager and/or techs there? You could then leave your car, confident that the shop will find & repair the problem without ripping you off.

You have 2 other choices of course:

1. Do nothing and live with the problem.

2. Throw parts at the problem with the hope that something will fix it.

It's your car and your money.


Last edited by knuckles; 08-04-03 at 09:33 PM.
 
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08-04-03, 05:45 PM   #25  
Joe_F
Original poster:

I can side with your situation, and you surely did possibly get screwed in the past by the dealer, but they are not all the same. There are good and bad lawyers, doctors, cops, firemen, city workers, office workers, etc.

I can tell you that you would have been thrown out of the shop that I used to hang around. Don't want to leave it? Not going to fix it.

It sounds like you're attempting to diagnose your own problems, but don't really have the knowledge to do so. A sure fire way to make a jackass out of yourself AND and get charged extra!

If you tell the shop what's wrong, and tell them what needs doing, you've just wasted your money. They'll change what you tell them, it won't solve the problem and you'll still have to pay!

If you have an idea what the problems are, shell out $25 for an Alldata.com subscription, get out your multimeter and go to town.

I hate to repeat myself, but I'll do it one last time.

THE PROBLEM HAS TO BE REPLICATED BY THE SHOP TO SOLVE IT.

If you're hellbent on throwing a starter at the problem, go ahead and make sure it's an AC Delco. It's going to be a $100 mistaken attempt at solving the problem.

You've wasted more time back and forth with this problem and with "shopping" for it and it could have been fixed a long time ago if you left it with someone competent.

Simply put if they charge you and it doesn't solve the problem, you're entitled to your money back. Beyond that, live with the problem as is.

Cadillacs of that era are riddled with electrical gazorches.

 
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08-07-03, 07:21 AM   #26  
Joe_F
Note to Twelvepole:

Kindly do not edit posts made. It changes the content of the posts, and takes away the intrinisic value of them.

I did not see in any fashion, way, shape or form why Knuckes' posts needed to be revised.

If there is a software glitch that is doing this, then please advise.

I know Alan (Knuckles) personally and he is a fine technician who gives his all in everything he does, including this forum. He has great technical knowledge, fine character and like most of us guys in the trade, is quite candid. Please don't drive him out of this forum by usurping the good things he and I do here.

Kindly explain why the posts were modified. Again, the goal here is to help people, learn, exchange ideas, and have a few laughs in the process.

Thanks,

 
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