Land Rover brake problem

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  #1  
Old 09-09-03, 08:20 PM
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Land Rover brake problem

My daughter in law's 1996 Land Rover Discovery with anti lock brakes has an intermittent problem. The brake pedal has on occasion gone down resulting in little or no brakes. I suspect a bad master cylinder. The reservoir is full and there are no signs of a leak.

Otherwise the brakes seem relativly normal.

The anti lock light used to stay on after it was started and then go off after driving a while. We assumed this was normal. I'm not sure when it started staying on all the time but the anti lock light now is always on.

Other than the anti lock system not working is it ok to ignor the anti lock light as I'm sure it will be very expensive to repair or replace?

I plan to replace the master cylinder. Do you have any suggestions or ideas?

Thank you.
 
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  #2  
Old 09-09-03, 08:57 PM
mike from nj
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brake pedal going to the floor and the anti-lock light on---i wouldn't be ignoring this.

is it more expensive to fix the abs than an accident or a rollover(or a death)?


be forewarned---some master cylinders are integrated with the abs system and are extremely expensive(like a bendix 10 system) and some can only be bled with a scan tool to cycle the abs components for a proper bleed.

i've never worked on a land rover(ford, i think) abs system, so this might not apply to you, but you should definitely do a lot of reading and research before you attempt anything. the abs code might be as simple as a "base brake system failure" code, this i've seen before(not on a land rover)

not a place to save money---on brakes
 
  #3  
Old 09-10-03, 04:17 AM
Joe_F
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Professional service required.

You may have both a hydraulic problem as well as an ABS one. The ABS one may require a scanner to fix and diagnose. Not something for the faint of heart or if you lack the service information for it.

Unfortunately, this is one of the "benefits" of owning one of these expensive biscuits. Parts and labor cost a mint, just comes with the territory.
 
  #4  
Old 09-10-03, 11:05 AM
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Thanks for the replys.

I do not intend to do anything that is not safe. Anti lock is a nice safety feature but many cars do not have it so I feel it is a nice luxury not an essential feature.

The master cylinder is seprate from the anti lock unit. I have the procedure to replace the master cylinder and bleed the system from Mitchels and it is pretty basic.

I was hoping some one knew if there is any way a defective anti lock system could cause the no brakes problem.

In doing other work on this vehicle I have learned that parts are very hard to find and expensive.

I have no clue as to why someone would buy one unless they have plenty of money that they do not need.
 
  #5  
Old 09-10-03, 11:52 AM
Joe_F
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Incorrect. The ABS and the hydraulic system work together and the two must work properly to stop this 5000 lb beast .

The two problems while separate in nature are not independent as far as a solution is concerned. That is, you have to get to the root of the problem to fix both. One common problem could be causing both for instance.

If someone has the ducats to buy a Land Rover, it's prudent to buy the factory manual to do the repair so you have the right information at hand.

Unfortunately, the repair of the ABS failure requires a scanner which is out of the reach of most folks. A bad wheel sensor could be the problem, but it sounds deeper than that.

I do agree that this is a lot of biscuits for one of these
 
  #6  
Old 09-10-03, 12:14 PM
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Joe:

I just talked to Land Rover. They say all vehicles are designed to where an anti lock system failure will not affect normal braking.

Their opinion is that the master cylinder is the cause of the no brakes problem.
 
  #7  
Old 09-10-03, 12:24 PM
Joe_F
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Is the master cylinder leaking? If so, that's a START .

The ABS light is on due to ABS system failure which will require a scanner to extract codes and figure out why it's on.

When that vehicle was designed, ABS was figured into the design. Therefore being without it is a handicap to proper braking.

Otherwise they wouldn't have wasted the money to incorporate it into the original design .
 
  #8  
Old 09-10-03, 12:53 PM
Joe_F
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Here's a link to the bulletins for this big biscuit

http://alldata.com/TSB/68/96680604.html

Have the LR dealer print out any that apply to ABS or your problem to see what the fix is.
 
  #9  
Old 09-10-03, 07:04 PM
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Alldata says there is a way to check the ABS codes on this vehicle so here goes. It is lengthy so you should print this out to take it with you.

If diagnostic equipment is not available the following procedure can be carried out using the "Blink Code" method to read fault codes. Faults are stored in the ECU memory in code form which can be retrieved by initiating and reading a series of flash and pause sequences on the ABS warning light.

ACTION REQUIRED

If diagnostic equipment is not available follow the procedure below to diagnose an ABS fault.

PARTS INFORMATION

YPJ10015 - terminal - 2 required (available in LRNA terminal kit)

PROCEDURE

1. Fabricate a jumper wire with YJP10015 terminals and appropriate wire (6"length 16 gauge)

2. Locate TestBook diagnostic connector under dash. Connect jumper wire to pins 5 and 15 and turn ignition to position 2.

3. 5 seconds after the ignition is turned to position 2 the Anti-Lock warning light will extinguish, indicating the start of the cycle.

4. Observe the Anti-Lock warning light, the start phase of the blink code is signified by the following:

- Pause = 2.5 seconds (long)
- Flash = 2.5 seconds (long)
- Pause = 2.5 seconds (long)
-Flash = 0.5 seconds (short)

5. The first part of the code number is determined by a pause of 2.5 seconds which precedes a series of short flashes then a long pause. The number of short flashes is equal to the first digit in the fault code.

6. The second digit in the code number is determined after a pause of 2.5 seconds which occurs between the first and second code flashes. After the pause there will be a number of short flashes, the number of flashes is equal to the second digit in the fault code. After the flashes there will be another pause of 2.5 seconds before the system repeats the flash and pause sequence. This will allow for a verification of the code or if the initial flash and pause sequence was missed.

7. The sequence of the start phase, first and second code parts will continue until terminated by the operator. To terminate the code sequence disconnect the jumper wire.

NOTE:
Termination will clear the memory of that particular fault, and the fault will not be retrievable. Do not terminate the sequence if unsure of the code number.

8. The memory is capable of storing more than one fault. To search the memory, after the jumper wire is disconnected wait until the Anti-Lock light illuminates and then turn the ignition off, the code is now completely cleared. To obtain the next code repeat the procedure from step #2.

9. If there are no faults remaining there will be a long pause of 7.5 seconds after the start phase.

10. Once all of the codes have been obtained and cleared, locate the problem cause and rectification for each code and fix accordingly.

As Joe and Mike said ABS is not a luxury item and must NOT be ignored. It is critical in the braking system on all cars equipped.

Let us know what you find out on the codes and maybe we can nail down what your problem is before you go throwing parts at it.

There are 3 TSB's dealing with the brakes on this vehicle. One is for a anti squeal shim(Nov 95), one is for an updated pad to reduce squeal(Apr 97) and the other is for the procedure that I just typed in here(Oct 95).
Hope this helps ya,
Billy
 
  #10  
Old 09-10-03, 08:53 PM
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Thanks guys. Great info.

No visable external leaks at the master cylinder. I will pull it away from the booster to see if it is leaking into the booster. I have seen the drain port be plugged and the leaking fluid went inside the booster instead of down the front of the booster as designed.

Do you know where the diagnostic connector is located under the dash, and do you know if the pin #s are clearly labled?
 
  #11  
Old 09-11-03, 12:02 AM
mike from nj
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for joe---99% of cars/trucks today can be driven with a disabled or inoperative abs system, the default is just regular brakes.

from a liability standpoint, if someone ever got into an accident with them knowingly driving like that, i would hate to see what the insurance company/state police/prosecutor/investigator does with that information on their investigation, i would think the fun would be ending for the driver!
 
  #12  
Old 09-11-03, 04:00 AM
Joe_F
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Agree, some lawsuit.

ABS was factored into the original design and HELPS the vehicle stop better. If it didn't, LR wouldn't waste their money or time to develop it. They'd simply use the same brakes as they had before .

What I meant was that it's critical to fix it and it's not a niciety, it's a necessity.

(Incidentally, Girling probably designed that whole ABS system for them. LOL)
 
  #13  
Old 09-11-03, 08:37 PM
mike from nj
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ABS was factored into the original design and HELPS the vehicle stop better. If it didn't, LR wouldn't waste their money or time to develop it. They'd simply use the same brakes as they had before



so a car with abs is using the 'system' every time it stops?

it's my understanding that abs is only used in a panic stop or adverse conditions(ice, snow, wet pavement)

how is it then that the cars i work on all have a factory option of abs, it's the buyer's choice on each model we sell. then how does each one stop if it was designed for abs, yet the owner opted not to get it?

if your abs was disabled and the light was blown out, you would never know it unless it was the conditions above

every vehicle manufacturer sells abs because people demand it, it's another bell or whistle, not because they care about you
 
  #14  
Old 09-12-03, 04:09 AM
Joe_F
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Since many times replacement parts at the counter differ ("Says here W or w/o ABS in my parts catalog, which do you have Mr. Customer??), yes it's part of the design of the vehicle .

For instance, I looked up parts for my friend's 1997 Stratus recently in the PAIS/Chrysler/B&H system and the parts differed by sales codes, which had to do with ABS/Non ABS, etc.

We surely wouldn't want to put any old parts there when the manufacturer says that ABS cars use these parts while non ABS use those.

In other words, if your car had it originally, fix it . That is my point. Also, many cars today either have it platform wide or they don't have it as an option. Kinda a mainstay.

If vehicles with ABS didn't perform better, why would the manufacturer add this? They would simply make a new cupholder or add leather seats and charge you more to make more money.

My point to the original poster: Don't ride around with the ABS disabled or think it's Ok not to fix it. Needs to be fixed .
 
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