changing oil filter without changing the oil

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  #1  
Old 11-04-03, 03:51 AM
madesumshoes
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changing oil filter without changing the oil

I put some synthetic oil in my car. It's supposed to be good for about 10,000 miles. The guy at the shop told me to change the filter after about 6 months. Stupid question, but what's the best way to change the filter without changing the oil?

thanks for any input.
 
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  #2  
Old 11-04-03, 04:37 AM
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OK, first off. I would not change filter or oil separatly. Always change your oil and oil filter at the same time and best done every 3000 miles. 10000 miles is way too much on any oil. The oil isnt usually the problem anyway. The filter gets so dirty after being in there for way too long that the element gets clogged and the oil bypasses the element and goes right back into the engine and carries whatever dirt it picked up on its travel right back to your engines bearings.
If you are hell bent on trying this and I am not real sure exactly what you are asking, you shouldnt lose more than a quart of oil when you change your filter depending on the vehicle and the size of the filter.
Billy
 
  #3  
Old 11-04-03, 06:14 AM
darrell McCoy
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Oil and filter both at 3000 miles. Think? Thats the cheapest thing you will ever put into your car.
 
  #4  
Old 11-04-03, 09:29 AM
Joe_F
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Time to stop listening to that guy, he's clueless.......

Change your oil and filter every 3mo/3k with regular and you'll tire of the vehicle before it gives up hope on you.

Best analogy I can give you is that you don't take a shower without soap to get clean and fresh, and your car requires oil and filter to be "clean" as well.
 
  #5  
Old 11-04-03, 03:11 PM
KurtDixon
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Or another analogy you can't have a bath with old, used water. You just get the same old dirt back on you, you fill it up with fresh water every time (or use fresh water out of the shower instead of recycling the same brown water.)
Same thing with the car, when chemicals and junk start floating around in the oil, then engine gets dirty and runs poorly, eventually damage occurs. So I would agree about the 3000/3 months, with regular oil.
 
  #6  
Old 11-05-03, 03:32 AM
madesumshoes
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Oil change

Ok guys. I agree. I will go back to changing my olil every 3000 miles. Tahnks for all the comments.
 
  #7  
Old 11-05-03, 10:58 PM
mike from nj
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awww, come on guys. i was looking for another engine to rebuild. it's the slow season you know, i've only got one engine on the bench.
 
  #8  
Old 11-06-03, 07:09 AM
Joe_F
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Talking

LOL.
 
  #9  
Old 11-06-03, 08:29 PM
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madesumshoes:

Do not let these guys convince you that you need to change your oil every 3,000 miles. If you use full synthetic you can easily and safely go 10,000 miles between changes. And you will have much better engine protection than going 3,000 miles with regular oil.

They will come on here and tell you that this is not true. DO NOT believe them. With all due respect they do not know what they are talking about and they are sure they are right.

My opinion is you do not need to change the filter until the 10,000 mikes is up. If you were going 20,000 to 25,000 miles like some do then I would change it in at half way. If you want to change it anyway just change it and replace the oil that was lost.

Hint: When ever you change the oil filter do your engine a favor and fill the filter with oil before you put it on. This keeps the engine from running with 0 oil pressure while the oil filter fills when you start the engine. If your filter goes on at an angle just put as much oil in it as you can so it does not spill when you install it. The filter will soak the oil up. Fill it and let it sit. Come back in 10 minutes or so and you will be suprised the filter may look empty or very low. Fill it again and it will soak up even more.
 
  #10  
Old 11-06-03, 09:59 PM
mike from nj
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that's a good one!

yes, follow his advice and try to go 25,000 miles between oil changes, i would love the extra work.


imagine that, making it to 100,000 miles on 4 oil changes.


let me get this straight, i should fill the filter first, that way i won't hurt the engine when it runs without oil pressure for .2 seconds, but 25,000 mile oil isn't hurting anything?

ok, i think i got it straight now.

what if a car burns a quart in a thousand miles, then every 5 thousand miles it would have fresh oil, it would theoretically NEVER need an oil change?

think about that one for a while.
 
  #11  
Old 11-07-03, 04:38 AM
Joe_F
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Let me know which junkyard both of your cars are going to. I'll be sure to be picking some nice body parts off your shiny body with a grenaded engine. Last yard I went to had cars $1 a part. Shoot, I got some great parts off those clean bodied cars!

I was just in a U pull it yard in PA last week. I'd bet money that half of those cars never saw any regular maintenance and that is the reason they are sitting on blocks and not driving down the PA turnpike like the 250,000 mile 1988 Chevy Caprice wagon we used to get there..mind you this car has a $50 engine in it.

With all due respect Carnut, you have been bamboozled by oil company marketing. Those are hardly the facts. Try proving to a dealer that Mobil said you could extend your oil change interval so much and then asking them to pay for your engine damage under warranty. They will laugh you out of the service department. And so would a court.

I've sad it once, I'll say it again, and it's backed more fleet miles than you'll ever know, old friend.

Save your money. Change it reguarly, follow the schedule and you'll be fine. You'll tire of the car before it tires of you.

Ask any trucker with a couple million miles on his rig or any fleet manager whose job is to keep the fleet running efficiently what he does and you'll have your answer.

When you have some hard facts in your hands and see the trees through the forest, you can then tell rest of us we need to learn something .

I'm waiting for that proof from you...Mine's on the mileage counter on my odometer.
 
  #12  
Old 11-07-03, 03:40 PM
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Originally posted by mike from nj
yes, follow his advice and try to go 25,000 miles between oil changes, i would love the extra work.


imagine that, making it to 100,000 miles on 4 oil changes.


let me get this straight, i should fill the filter first, that way i won't hurt the engine when it runs without oil pressure for .2 seconds, but 25,000 mile oil isn't hurting anything?

ok, i think i got it straight now.

what if a car burns a quart in a thousand miles, then every 5 thousand miles it would have fresh oil, it would theoretically NEVER need an oil change?

think about that one for a while.
Mike:

It never ceases to amaze me how some people read things that are not there. Please show me where I advised the person to go 25,000 miles on an oil change. I said some people do but I did not recomend it!!!!!!!

Then you get sarcastic about filling the oil filter. I made no claims about results but it is easy to do and will reduce the amount of time the engine sees 0 oil pressure. I think most intelligent people might see the logic that this could be of some benefit no matter how small and the cost is $0.00 so please explain to us what is wrong with the idea????? Why do you compare this to a 25,000 mile oil change that I did not recomend???

Your comment about never changing oil does not need a reply now does it??

I do not know what you think you have straight but it is sure not your responce.

I expect you are a knowledgeable person but it is unfortunate that you had to resort to mis-stating what I said in order to make your point and express your opinion.

You might want to think about that for a while, particularly if you wish to appear credible and to have people respect your opinion.
 
  #13  
Old 11-07-03, 03:46 PM
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Joe: Sorry I have to go now but don't worry I will be back. I don't want you to think I forgot about you or am ignoring you.

I am a little short on time right now.
 
  #14  
Old 11-07-03, 03:51 PM
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Carnut...... You in fact did say something that can be construed as recommending a 25k oil change.
See......
My opinion is you do not need to change the filter until the 10,000 mikes is up. If you were going 20,000 to 25,000 miles like some do then I would change it in at half way. If you want to change it anyway just change it and replace the oil that was lost.
YOUR credibility has been greatly diminished with the advice and comments you have made here.
It is absolutely ludicrous to suggest to someone that they can go 10k miles on an oil change. I dont care what type of oil you use. It is not about the oil, its about carrying the same dirt back and forth across your bearing surfaces when you clog that filter.
Billy
 
  #15  
Old 11-07-03, 09:19 PM
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Joe:

I agree with you in that many vehicles in the junk yard are there because of lack of maintenance. However it is well documented by independent tests that synthetic oil gives better and longer lasting protection than regular oil. Synthetic has been proven to give better protection after 10,000 miles than new conventional oil.

You are mistaken if you think I have been tricked into thinking synthetic oil is better by the oil manufactures. I have not read their claims. I have read as many independent tests as I have come across. And they all have pointed to better engine protection with longer change intervals not to mention superior cold start protection which is particularly important in colder climates. Put the same weight regular oil and synthetic in your deep freeze for a day. Then try to pour them and tell me what you think about how well regular oil folws and protects your engine on a cold start!!

Also you know very well that in a previous thread I specificly said you MUST follow the manufacturers oil change intervals to keep your warranty coverage. Yet you say I have indicated otherwise???

You refer to truck longevity. You seem to be refering to over the road diesels. Shame on you. You know this is comparing apples and prunes. First these engines are much more costly than automobile engines. They are specificly designed to run many more miles than a much cheaper car engine. They have two other specific advantages over car engines that allow them to last longer. 1. Due to their gear ratio they turn much fewer revolutions per mile than a car engine. They will go about twice as far as a car with the same number of revolutions. 2. Very few cars are driven like a truck. Trucks are driven long distances without being turned off and allowed to cool down. Cars go through many many many more cold starts which is the cause of much engine wear.

If you want proof it is out ther if you care to look for it. There are a number of independent test results on the internet. No I am not going to get the links for you but they are there.

Ask Honda what kind of oil that an owner used who got 1 million miles without any engine repair other than regular maintenance. The selling dealer fully documented the cars maintenance from the day it was sold. ( Synthetic was used in case you had not guessed.)

You are big on following manufacturers maintenance schedules, right. Please explain why manufacturers who install synthetic from the factory specify longer change intervals. For example Corvette requires synthetic to keep the warranty valid. They allow up to 15,000 miles between changes. They are getting up to 405 horsepower from a push rod 5.7 liter engine and many of these engines get the crap ran out of them. If you think GM and other synthetic using manufacturers did not do their homework before they came up with longer than normal oil change intervals you are mistaken. If anything high performance engines should have shorter oil change intervals due to the abuse the manufacturers know many of them get.

The proof is out there, if you are willing to look for it.
 
  #16  
Old 11-07-03, 09:47 PM
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Billy:

I have never suggested 20,000 to 25,000 mile change intervals. The fact that some people do is nothing to do with anything I have ever said. I simply stated, if you were to go that long I think it would be good to change the filter more often.

Apparently you feel GM and other manufactures are "ludicrous" when they state long oil change intervals in their owners manuals for their synthetic oiled vehicles. You might want to discuss this matter over coffee sometime with their engineers.

If you will care to read the research and test results you will see that synthetic oil does not promote sludge build up to anywhere near the degree that regular oil does. You do not end up with near as many contaminates in the oil with synthetic as you do with regular oil so you do not have the problem with cloging the filter like you seem to think.

If you think my credability is diminished by agreeing with major automobile manufactures you may wish to consider hat people think about your credability for disagreeing with them. They have spent millions on research and development and they just might know a little bit more than you.
 
  #17  
Old 11-07-03, 09:55 PM
mike from nj
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here's my proof

well mr. car nut, with all due respect, i can say the moon is made out of green cheese and then i can say "no, i'm not going to get the links for you but they are out there" is that a good support to your claim?

here's a fact, copied from the 2003 viper service manual, and i can tell you there is a 'mobil 1' insignia on the oil fill cap. (this is the 500/500/500 one)(c.i.d./hp/torque)
**************************************************
DESCRIPTION
Maintenance Schedule Information not included in this section, is located in the appropriate Owner's Manual.

There are two maintenance schedules that show the required service for your vehicle.

First is Schedule “B”. It is for vehicles that are operated under the conditions that are listed below and at the beginning of the schedule.

Day or night temperatures are below 0° C (32° F).
Stop and go driving.
Extensive engine idling.
Driving in dusty conditions.
Short trips of less than 16 km (10 miles).
More than 50% of your driving is at sustained high speeds during hot weather, above 32° C (90° F).♦
Trailer towing.♦
Taxi, police, or delivery service (commercial service).♦
Off-road or desert operation.
If equipped for and operating with E-85 (ethanol) fuel.
NOTE: Most vehicles are operated under the conditions listed for Schedule "B".

Second is Schedule “A”. It is for vehicles that are not operated under any of the conditions listed under Schedule "B".

Use the schedule that best describes your driving conditions. Where time and mileage are listed, follow the interval that occurs first.

CAUTION: Failure to perform the required maintenance items may result in damage to the vehicle.

At Each Stop for Fuel
Check the engine oil level about 5 minutes after a fully warmed engine is shut off. Checking the oil level while the vehicle is on level ground will improve the accuracy of the oil level reading. Add oil only when the level is at or below the ADD or MIN mark.
Check the windshield washer solvent and add if required.
Once a Month
Check tire pressure and look for unusual wear or damage.
Inspect the battery and clean and tighten the terminals as required.
Check the fluid levels of coolant reservoir, brake master cylinder, power steering and transmission and add as needed.
Check all lights and all other electrical items for correct operation.
At Each Oil Change
Change the engine oil filter.
Inspect the exhaust system.
Inspect the brake hoses.
Inspect the suspension components.
Lubricate door hinges.
Check the engine coolant level, hoses, and clamps.

SCHEDULE “B”
Follow schedule “B” if you usually operate your vehicle under one or more of the following conditions.

Day or night temperatures are below 0° C (32° F).
Stop and go driving.
Extensive engine idling.
Driving in dusty conditions.
Short trips of less than 16 km (10 miles).
More than 50% of your driving is at sustained high speeds during hot weather, above 32° C (90° F).
Trailer towing.
Taxi, police, or delivery service (commercial service).
Off-road or desert operation.
If equipped for and operating with E-85 (ethanol) fuel.

Kilometers 5 000 10 000 14 000 19 000 24 000 29 000
(Miles) (3,000 ) (6,000 ) (9,000) (12,000) (15,000 (18,000)
Change engine oil and engine oil filter. X X X X X X
Inspect the brake linings. X
Change the rear axle fluid. X
Inspect and replace, if necessary, the air cleaner filter. X
Lubricate the front and rear suspension ball joints. X
******************************************

the chart is skewed, because i copied and pasted it, but you can clearly see that the synthetic oil should be changed every 3000 miles, then i went further into the manual and found this:

***************************************
DESCRIPTION - ENGINE OIL AND LUBRICANTS
WARNING: NEW OR USED ENGINE OIL CAN BE IRRITATING TO THE SKIN. AVOID PROLONGED OR REPEATED SKIN CONTACT WITH ENGINE OIL. CONTAMINANTS IN USED ENGINE OIL, CAUSED BY INTERNAL COMBUSTION, CAN BE HAZARDOUS TO YOUR HEALTH. THOROUGHLY WASH EXPOSED SKIN WITH SOAP AND WATER. DO NOT WASH SKIN WITH GASOLINE, DIESEL FUEL, THINNER, OR SOLVENTS, HEALTH PROBLEMS CAN RESULT. DO NOT POLLUTE, DISPOSE OF USED ENGINE OIL PROPERLY. CONTACT YOUR DEALER OR GOVERNMENT AGENCY FOR LOCATION OF COLLECTION CENTER IN YOUR AREA.

When service is required, DaimlerChrysler Corporation recommends that only Mopar® brand parts, lubricants and chemicals be used. Mopar® provides the best engineered products for servicing DaimlerChrysler Corporation vehicles.

Only lubricants bearing designations defined by the following organization should be used.

Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE)
American Petroleum Institute (API)
National Lubricating Grease Institute (NLGI)
API SERVICE GRADE CERTIFIED
DaimlerChrysler Corporation recommends a fully synthetic API certified engine oil of the proper viscosity grade for refill. Viper engine factory fill is Mobil 1® 10W-30.

SAE VISCOSITY
An SAE viscosity grade is used to specify the viscosity of engine oil. Use only engine oils with multiple viscosities such as 5W-30 or 10W-30. These are specified with a dual SAE viscosity grade which indicates the cold-to-hot temperature viscosity range. Select an engine oil that is best suited to your particular temperature range and variation (TEMPERATURE/ENGINE OIL VISCOSITY).

SYNTHETIC ENGINE OILS
The Viper engine comes from the factory with Mobil 1® synthetic engine oil. A full synthetic API certified engine oil of the proper viscosity grade is recommended for refill.

ENERGY CONSERVING OIL
An Energy Conserving type oil is recommended for Viper engines. The designation of ENERGY CONSERVING is located on the label of an engine oil container.

CONTAINER IDENTIFICATION
Standard engine oil identification notations have been adopted to aid in the proper selection of engine oil. The identifying notations are located on the label of engine oil plastic bottles and the top of engine oil cans (API SYMBOL).

ENGINE OIL ADDITIVES/SUPPLEMENTS
The manufacturer does not recommend the addition of any engine oil additives/supplements to the specified engine oil. Engine oil additives/supplements should not be used to enhance engine oil performance. Engine oil additives/supplements should not be used to extend engine oil change intervals. No additive is known to be safe for engine durability and can degrade emission components. Additives can contain undesirable materials that harm the long term durability of engines by:

Doubling the level of Phosphorus in the engine oil. The ILSAC (International Lubricant Standard Approval Committee) GF-2 and GF-3 standards require that engine oil contain no more than 0.10% Phosphorus to protect the vehicles emissions performance. Addition of engine oil additives/supplements can poison, from the added sulfur and phosphorus, catalysts and hinder efforts to guarantee emissions performance to 80,000 miles.
Altering the viscosity characteristics of the engine oil so that it no longer meets the requirements of the specified viscosity grade.
Creating potential for an undesirable additive compatibility interaction in the engine crankcase. Generally it is not desirable to mix additive packages from different suppliers in the crankcase; there have been reports of low temperature engine failures caused by additive package incompatibility with such mixtures.
***************************************

i can assure you i have not altered these pastes at all, and for your info, the "a" schedule is for a max of 7500 miles on the oil change interval

evidence to support a claim
me 1
you 0

let me know when my credibility starts slipping
 
  #18  
Old 11-08-03, 04:33 AM
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Cudos to you Mike for taking the time to substantiate what we all are trying to emphasize.
Billy
 
  #19  
Old 11-08-03, 12:48 PM
Joe_F
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Carnut:

With all due respect, your experience is surely not based on reality or experience in the trade as others here, I can tell.

ANY vehicle used commercially (even if it's a Geo Metro used to deliver letters) will require "severe" service category service. This is a known fact. I'll bet you do severe service driving and don't realize it---most people make this same mistake.

The Peterbilt truck delivering the goods on your store shelf goes through twice the stress and wear as your passenger car does. It idles, it's driven fast, long, hard, fully loaded, in all weather. Most cars don't see half this stress.

The bottom is, that you cannot extend the manufacturer's drain intervals no matter what you use. Your statement as Billy pointed out, rings to the contrary.

All of the "proof" supplied that synthetic helps extend drain intervals (including the one posted here which I removed---it was spam) has been sponsored by....oil companies . I do not think those labs will find something wrong when the oil company is paying for it. There has yet to be real proof of this extended drain interval thing with synthetic.

Simple science will tell you it's hogwash as others have pointed out.

If you called Mobil and asked them "can I extend the OEM drain interval by using synthetic?", me thinks you will get the standard "please follow the OEM maintenance drain interval answer". . In fact, I know you will .

Bottom line: Synthetic oil does not extend drain intervals.

If you were sick with the flu, you would want your "oil" (body fluids) to help drain you out of the sickness ASAP. Your car asks you the same courtesy with the dirt floating around inside of it.
 
  #20  
Old 11-08-03, 07:03 PM
jimmymc
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I have a "Franz" oil filter system for sale.

jimmymc
 
  #21  
Old 11-09-03, 01:28 PM
Joe_F
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???
 
  #22  
Old 11-09-03, 01:55 PM
Joe_F
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So much for Mobil or any one else supporting "extended drain intervals". From the Mobil 1 website:


(Notice how they say "follow the vehicle manufacturer's recommendations.

Newsflash: Severe service is 3k/3mo change intervals and many folks do it and don't realize it).


You don't have to change the oil as often when using Mobil 1.
While Mobil 1 has given excellent results in extended oil drain tests, ExxonMobil prefers to remain conservative with oil drain recommendations. ExxonMobil engineers recommend that you can go all the way to the maximum mileage or time frame shown in your owner's manual for oil changes when using Mobil 1 with SuperSyn™. This allows the reserve protection capabilities of Mobil 1 with SuperSyn™ to cover unusual or unexpected driving conditions.


Oil change intervals can be as short as 3,000 miles or as long as 15,000 miles on some new cars. Mobil 1 with SuperSyn™'s high-performance reserves can give you the confidence to go the full mileage or time frame recommended by the vehicle manufacturer. Mobil 1 with SuperSyn™ is especially suitable for the latest vehicles with extended drain intervals or vehicles with oil monitoring systems that vary oil drain intervals.





Using Mobil 1 will void my new-car warranty.
With the exception of the Mazda rotary engine (Mazda does not recommend any synthetic motor oils), Mobil 1 with SuperSyn™ will not void new-car warranties. Mobil 1 with SuperSyn™ exceeds the API and ILSAC motor oil service requirements of all new-car manufacturers, both import and domestic. If in doubt, always check your vehicle owner's manual or contact your vehicle's manufacturer.





Mobil 1 can't be used in diesel engines.
Mobil 1 with SuperSyn™ will provide excellent service for passenger car and light-duty truck diesel engines (API CF or CD), as well as European diesel cars that require ACEA-quality oils. (This is the oil specification used in Europe and developed by European car companies.)


Heavy-duty truck engines that require API CE, CF-4, CG-4, CH-4 or CI-4 should use one of the products from the Delvac® line – Mobil Delvac 1® synthetic engine oil or Mobil Delvac 1300 Super®. Mobil Delvac 1 synthetic oil can help improve fuel economy, extend oil drain intervals, extend engine life, provide enhanced wear/cleanliness protection and reduce oil consumption. Delvac products can be purchased at a large number of truck stops across America, some retail stores, auto parts stores and from ExxonMobil distributors.





Motorcycles can't benefit from synthetic oil.
ExxonMobil offers three Mobil 1 fully synthetic motor oils for motorcycles:


Mobil 1 MX4T is recommended for on-road, high-performance, 4-cycle sport bikes, which are typically liquid cooled. It can also be used in air-cooled engines calling for a 10W-40 oil.
Mobil 1 V-Twin is a 20W-50 oil recommended for 4-cycle V-twin engines, particularly those that are air cooled and tend to run hotter than other types of engines.
Mobil 1 MX2T is recommended for 2-cycle motorcycle engines that specify the use of a pre-mix, 2-cycle engine oil.

Although Mobil 1 15W-50 has been used in 4-cycle motorcycle engines, ExxonMobil engineers recommend using Mobil 1 Motorcycle Oils, since they have been specifically optimized for motorcycle applications. Be sure to follow your owner's manual for recommended oil and filter change frequencies.





Mobil 1 will leak out of the seals of older cars.
Mobil 1 does not cause leaks. In fact, new Mobil 1 with SuperSyn™ was tested in dozens of industry standard and OEM tests to prove its seal performance. It is fully compatible with the elastomeric materials from which all automotive seals and gaskets are made.

ExxonMobil engineers are wary of conventional oils that tout their use of additional seal-swelling agents. With extended use, these agents can over-soften engine seals, resulting in leaks. More to the point, an oil additive will not rejuvenate worn or damaged seals. The damaged seal may have been caused by a worn rotating metal component in the engine.

If an older engine is in good condition and does not have oil leaks, Mobil 1 with SuperSyn™ provides the same advantages as when used in a new engine. ExxonMobil recommends taking measures to repair the leaks, then using Mobil 1 with SuperSyn™. ExxonMobil also always recommends following the automobile manufacturer's manual for the proper oil to use.





Mobil 1 requires a special oil filter.
While ExxonMobil recommends that you use a high-quality filter, you can use the same type of oil filter that you would normally use with conventional oil. ExxonMobil does offer a very high-quality oil filter that is a perfect companion to Mobil 1 with SuperSyn™. The Mobil 1 High Efficiency Oil Filter contains synthetic fibers instead of the typical cellulose filter media. With a 95-percent efficiency rating (under SAE J806 tests for capacity and contamination removal), the Mobil 1 filter is much more efficient than a typical oil filter, removing more particles per pass through the filter. In addition, the synthetic fibers in the Mobil 1 filter have less resistance to oil flow, reducing the potential for the filter to restrict the flow of oil to your engine.






I need to flush my engine before switching to Mobil 1.
No special preparation is necessary when switching from conventional motor oil to Mobil 1 with SuperSyn™.





You can't mix Mobil 1 with conventional oil.
Mobil 1 with SuperSyn™ is fully compatible with conventional motor oils, semi-synthetic motor oils and other synthetic motor oils should it be necessary to mix them. But the superior performance of Mobil 1 with SuperSyn™ will be reduced by diluting it.
 
  #23  
Old 11-09-03, 03:07 PM
KurtDixon
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Yet another oil debate. Oh well, this one is slightly more polite than the last one
As for trucks, they DO go thru much severe driving that other cars. Think about buses. They drive in the city, stop and go, idiling for long periods (VERY long in fact, sometimes they leave them running over an hour or 2, try idling your car for 2 hours and see how it likes it.) Buses get worn down fast. Not the engines though. The brakes wear down within months. The transmissions don't like city driving either (an automatic tranny, stop and go, moving a 10 ton bus, every day.) Almost every bus I have been on has a rough sounding transmission, either it slips on acceleration or it doesn't want to shift, or it "searches" between gears. However the engines in every bus I have been in sounds fine and runs fine. The transmissions wear down MUCH, MUCH faster than the engines in buses. I do not know what oil they use, what intervals they use. But I think they would do everything they can to protect their engines so i would assume, synthetic or not, 3000 kms or less for buses.
I have given no solid proof in here, but this is just from my experience, I have ridden on MANY buses and none have had a bad engine per say.
 
  #24  
Old 11-09-03, 07:12 PM
jimmymc
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The Franz oil filter system was marketed in the 60's and 70's.

The claim was "Save money...never change your oil...just the filter"

A remote filter can was mounted under the hood. I can remember seeing many of these things on cars.

The big deal for mechanics back then was to get to take this system off a car, because you could solder a piece of 1/2 tubing on the can a make a great trans refill funnel.

I do remember checking the oil on several of these cars and the oil was amazingly clean for leaded gasoline.

The best part is...it used a roll of toilet paper for a filter element

jimmymc
 
  #25  
Old 11-10-03, 06:16 AM
Joe_F
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I was born in 1971, but I do remember the toilet paper as a filter thing, because some of the older cars didn't have filters and that's what you used .

I remember my dad modifying a filter for a Chevy for our antique 1941 Plymouth we had from 78 to 88. It was a direct fit .

Back in the 60's and 70's, you had SA and SB oil running around and engines were all cast iron and a ton more forgiving.

It's been proven time and time again that regular maintenance means a good (and long running) car if well designed.
 
  #26  
Old 11-10-03, 07:22 AM
jimmymc
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I agree totally on regular maintainance...including 3000 mile oil/filter changes.

...but I think driving conditions...time/short trips,etc is more of a factor than actual mileage.

Condensation, acid formation and fuel dilution does more damage than oil mileage.

...and...In my opinion...a manufacture's maintainance schedule is not always designed for a customer's best interests.

Also to be considered is the "flub factor"

jimmymc
 
  #27  
Old 11-10-03, 09:00 AM
Joe_F
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If you follow the severe maintenance schedule category, it should last a long time. Most folks don't ever read those pamphlets, that's half the problem.

I've been doing that since 1988 (when I started driving) and never have had a problem.
 
  #28  
Old 11-10-03, 02:45 PM
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Connetisuck
Posts: 162
I think Car Nut is missing the whole point here. Oil and filter changes should be done regularly as a preventive maintinence. Other conditions may also require sooner than normal oil and filter changes. Remember this, it's not the oil by itself that breaksdown. The oil needs to be replaced mainly due to byproducts of combustion. Fuel, blowby gasses, oxidization, moisture, and other impurities will contaminate the oil. The oil itself in an engine properly maintained started and driven in a straight line from here to the imaginary highway may very well go 10,000 miles without the oil becoming severely polluted, but that is not the case. Extreme temperature changes, cylinder misfires, or anything on the severe driving condition list are the key factors here. In fact it is the way the majority of the people on Earth drive. Change your oil whenever you feel like it car nut, but don't tell people not to believe it because you buy into misleading advertisement. How's your Tornado and friction wedge by the way?
 
  #29  
Old 11-10-03, 02:59 PM
mike from nj
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what's not to believe about infomercials?

if you bought a certain oil supplement about 6-7 years ago, you could easily cut the upper radiator hose off the running engine and then pour 5 gallon buckets of dirt onto the valve cover-less engine and it would continue to run, then even hose it down with a fire hose, and still, it would continue to run!

i saw it with my own eyes! (on tv)

or you could freeze the engine into a block of solid ice(32F), and with the magic supplement, the engine would magically start, whereas an unprotected engine wouldn't stand a chance.

anybody else have similiar results??


(i missed the friction wedge one)
 
  #30  
Old 11-10-03, 03:01 PM
Joe_F
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Thumbs up

Well put YW.
 
  #31  
Old 11-10-03, 04:39 PM
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Connetisuck
Posts: 162
LOL I love infomercials!
 
  #32  
Old 11-10-03, 04:46 PM
Member
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 478
Even if we forget the synthetic-conventional oil debate for a moment the shotgun approach to oil change interval recomendation is poor advice for modern vehicles. Joe & Mike on one hand you will say follow the manufacturers (mfgrs)recomendations and then you say to change every 3,000 miles. These two can vary widely. Joe your famous "oil is oil" quote is very misguided. Todays oils are much better than the oil of yester year. Why do you think the API & SAE grades are perodicly upgraded?

I have always suggested following the owners manual for oil change intervals for warranty coverage. I agree as has been pointed out many people do not read the criteria in the owners manual for determining severe or normal change intervals. I may be wrong but I do not think any current mfgr. recomends 3,000 miles. Some do recomend 3,750 miles for severe service and this is with regular oil. Mfgrs. are going to longer recomended change intervals than in the past. The oil is getting better, cars reach operating temp. sooner and run hotter than in the past. These are some of the reasons why.

I believe you are wasting money and our natural resources and doing little to prolong the life of your engine if you are changing the oil more frequently than the manufacturer recomends (if you believe the manufacturer knows what he/she is talking about). Or should we change every 500 miles and our engines would last forever. However there are to many variables in driving conditions for mileage only to be used to determine when the oil should be changed. But for most people that is all they have to go by. An oil analysis is the best way but few people will go to the trouble and expense. Mfgrs. are starting to use oil change indicators (not just driven by miles alone) that take into consideration cold starts, engine load, temperature and many other factors to know when to signal when a change is due. This is still not as good as an analysis but it is the next best thing.

When people have asked about extending drain intervals with synthetic I have said they can do so safely and with confidence. However you should still use some common sense. Most mfgrs. recomendations are based on regular oil.

Joe & Mike you asked for something to support my position and Wolverine you think I am missing the point. Mike you submitted the Viper information. Thanks for that as I knew their factory fill is Mobil 1 but I did not know their change intervals. Please notice they go against your shotgun 3,000 mile approach. Under the right conditions 7,500 is ok with them. I will not get into mfgr. bashing here but in my opinion Chry$ler Corp. has the poorest overall reputation for quality and reliability among the major mfgrs. But that is another story.

Billy you said 10,000 mile oil change interval is ludicrous and Joe you say synthetic does not extend drain intervals. I did a little checking today. As I have said before I am NOT buying into oil company claims. If so I would be trying to sell you the 35,000 mile change interval (under certain conditions) that I saw on the Am$oil site today.

Here are some people who might just know a little about synthetic oil. Porsche recomends 15,000 mile changes and requires synthetic. Mercedes also requires synthetic. They have an oil monitoring system that will tell you to change between 9,000 and 20,000 miles with the average being 12,000 miles. I have already said GM allows up to 15,000 miles with the required synthetic for corvette.

I do not know what type of oil they use but Saab recomends 10,000 miles. Honda recomends up to 10,000 miles on regular oil.

Do not forget, Honda can tell you about the 1 million mile Honda that got there on synthetic.

Sorry guys but I feel strongly that your 1 size fits all 3,000 mile recomendation is wrong and irresponsible. It must be you guys who are on the oil company or Jif_y Lube payroll.

Is synthetic cost effective? Average car 5 qt. regular oil at $2.00 qt. + 1 filter $5.00 = $15.00 every 3,000 miles as you recomend over 9,000 miles = $45.00 Or 5 qt. synthetic at $5.00 qt. + 1 filter $5.00 = $30.00 (prices are rounded up and of course will vary) The difference is even greater if you pay someone to change it for you. Not to mention the inconvenience of changing 3 times as often.

I realize you think I am all wet and that is ok with me. So in your spare time you might want to call up the engineers at Porsche, Mercedes, and GM and tell them that synthetic does not extend drain intervals safely, and that 10,000 miles on an oil change is ludricrous. I am sure they will appreciate your advice and they will be able to save millions on research and development.

madesumshoes: Have you made your decision?
 
  #33  
Old 11-10-03, 05:52 PM
KurtDixon
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I don't know much. But I don't get your comment on "we are just wasting the resources" ok so we should go to 10,000 mile intervals and load the earth up with wasted engines and cars?
 
  #34  
Old 11-10-03, 06:18 PM
thackmansr
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I gotta go with the 3000 mile guys. The filter will only get particulate matter. No matter how young your engine is, there are always some blow by gasses that make it to the crank case. Those gasses are usually gasoline, but the new fuels may be putting alchohol in there also. A build up of the blow by gasses dilutes the lubricating quality of the oil you're using. Change it, and the filter at 3000 miles.
 
  #35  
Old 11-10-03, 06:42 PM
mike from nj
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Posts: n/a
i guess we can all agree that we disagree.

i randomly picked years, vehicles and engines, (caravan 3.3L, ram truck 5.9L, caravan 2.4L) they all state 3,000 miles on schedule "B":
***Day or night temperatures are below 0° C (32° F). ***
***More than 50% of your driving is at sustained high speeds during hot weather, above 32° C (90° F)***

where i live, it's gets below freezing at night from now until april, and any day from may/june to september can be above 90. that leaves october and part of may that you would be allowed to go to schedule "A" or to the max of 7500 miles of standard oil.

i know synthetic is a far better oil, that's why i use it in one of my cars, for the superior HEAT protection, and when i drain it at 3000 miles, it smells and looks just as dirty as any oil at the same miles, and the engine has only 20,000 miles on it since i rebuilt it, because i was bored.

in the dealer that i work in, i've rebuilt/replaced many, many engines. standard operating procedure when under warranty is to ask for oil change receipts. it has not happened yet, that a single customer has brought them in for even close to a regular schedule, be it 3000 or 7500 miles. what does that mean? that means by simply changing the oil, any engine can last almost indefinitely.

from what i've heard from instructors, the only reason there is even a schedule of "A" or extended intervals, is for the people that compare yearly maintenance costs to the penny, and use that to make their decision for a new car purchase. comparing car 'a' to car 'b' price to maintain over the years will save me X amount of dollars, so every manufacturer will show how cheap it 'can' be to maintain our vehicle, yet the fine print shows what criteria needs to be met to even use that schedule.

you can bash chrysler all you want, i'd love to hear it, i would even tell you things you'd never believe, i don't design them, i don't build them, and i don't work for them-technically-at least they aren't signing my paycheck.

your 'superior' mercedes with 'superior' engineers with 'superior' engines just so happens to own chrysler, it was a ~merger~ (takeover!), i believe they do have a controlling interest in the corp, and their technology is quickly working it's way into the product line(crossfire). next years 'new' intrepid will be RWD, independant rear susp(ala MB) and will also be heavily influenced by MB.

yes, oils are getting better with each new api upgrade, but engines are running much hotter, like fan temps that come on at 220 and 230F, this cooks the oil, but gets slightly better emissions, so the oil interval is stated at 3000 miles. old iron, that rarely got the oil over 180F, can easily go the extra mile on the oil, but those days are over.

thackmansr---exactly, like i've said, with the blowby comes gasoline, and after the gas partially evaporates, it leaves a residue behind, like stale gas in a carb, only it's stale gas in your oil. there is no filter that will remove this, nor water, nor sludge, nor anything 'dissolved' in the oil, and it will eventually end up in the bearings, be it synthetic or conventional. the oil (sponge) will only hold so much before it's saturated, then damage quickly happens, that's why anyone should change it before this happens.

(i said to myself this would be a quick reply, let me type a few words, then look what happened)
we will never convince each other, i've stated the things i've seen in the years of working on cars, i know what happens from lack of maintenance, until i see otherwise, i will stick to my 'opinions' as i'm sure you will.

enjoy your driving.
 
  #36  
Old 11-10-03, 09:50 PM
KurtDixon
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A RWD intrepid! Way to go Chrysler. They are realizing their crappy FWD transmissions lol. Why not make all of them RWD, hopefully then they would have some good trannys again
 
  #37  
Old 11-11-03, 06:30 AM
Joe_F
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Arrow Still missing the point.

Car nut:

Here's another one that blows your theory. My sister's 2002 Tahoe has an oil life monitor.

As you know that will "tell" you when you need to change your oil.

Like clockwork, that monitor has gone off every 3k on that vehicle. So, even GM or their computer is telling you 3k mile changes are needed/good.

As I've said, and others have backed up, take apart a few engines and you'll see those that have been maintained and those that have not. I've been around cars long enough to see and know the difference.

Consumer Reports did a study of oils in cabs some time ago and I'm sure you can find it on the 'net. Their findings were that oil brands were not significantly different among the same type of oil.

That is, you will not "save" your car by buying one oil brand over the other. And that, old champ, is the truth.

Regular maintenance extends the life of a car, not high dollar product.

Original poster: Unless you have a high end vehicle that recommends synthetic oil per the owner's manual, you are wasting your money. Period.

Follow the OEM maintenance schedule for your driving (and Carnut, as I said, most people don't REALIZE they drive in the severe category! They think it's normal!) and you should be fine.

I've been doing it for 15+ years of driving, and have yet to send ANY of my vehicles to the junkyard. I have tired of them before they have tired of me.
 
  #38  
Old 11-11-03, 04:53 PM
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Connetisuck
Posts: 162
Yes, you are missing the point. It's not the oil itself that is breaking down it is the byproducts of combustion etc that contaminate the oil re-read my post and stop babbling on already.
 
  #39  
Old 11-11-03, 06:13 PM
bigpoppax2
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Posts: n/a
I'm gonna back CAR NUT on this one. And I don't need any proof my proof is what my family drives.

I like Amsoil. I have had good service out of it.

Moms car 99 Civic Si Amsoil put in at 3000 miles, she has 90,000+ miles on 3 oil changes so far. She changes hers at 25,000 miles or 1 year, filter at 12,500 or 6 months.

My 98 Honda Passport Amsoil put in at 9000 miles (when I bought it), it's got 74,000+ miles. I change mine every 15,000 with a filter change at 7,500.

My uncles 96 caravan Amsoil put in at 3000 miles has 200,000+ he changes his every 25,000.

No none of us sell Amsoil, I just like the service it gives. Look at an independent testing, sport rider just did a two month test testing mobil1, amsoil, and a bunch of blends and some dino oil. There was no comparison.

I'm with ya car nut.
 
  #40  
Old 11-11-03, 07:58 PM
KurtDixon
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Well good for you, now one person out of 1 billion thinks synthetic is better. You need more proof other than your own personal experiences to back up "enter oil here" We have been using good old regular oil, 3000/3months and never an engine problem in any of our cars. Sure we might get by with 25,000 miles between changes with synthetic, but why risk it? Changing oil is too cheap to gamble with.
 
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