A/C Compressor Doesn't Turn

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  #1  
Old 05-11-04, 06:49 AM
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A/C Compressor Doesn't Turn

'98 Grand Am here. Last fall it was making cold air - this spring there's none. Blower runs strong but only blows warm air.

I checked the freon using DIY gauge & it showed it was around 27 PSI - or the lower end of so called "filled" range. Can't see any sign that the compressor is running. The drive pulley (over the compressor clutch) is turning OK. Noticed there is fraying on one edge of the engine drive belt - if that provides any clues.

What's likely to be going on here. Can I get this thing going again by myself? I'm a pretty handy auto DIY"er - even if I have to say so myself (grin).

Any help will be much appreciated.

Best regards, Dick
 
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  #2  
Old 05-11-04, 01:50 PM
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The pressure can mean 2 things. Either the system is nearly full and the compressor is running or the system is empty and the comnpressor is not running. Just look at the outermost piece of the compressor clutch and see if it is turning along with the pully. Either way, you have a serious problem if the air is warm. You may need to go get a diagnostic estimate. It shouldn't cost more that $30.
 
  #3  
Old 05-11-04, 02:24 PM
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Hi Desi501,

The compressor is definitely not turning - I can see that the A/C clutch is standing still.

I've since learned that the pressure I'm seeing is probably too low. This suggests it needs more freon to trip the low pressure switch. Haynes A/C manual says it needs over 30 psi to start the compressor.

Do you know how I can trick the low pressure switch so it will engage the clutch? I would like to try this before I add freon?

I'm leary of diagnostics. Almost everyone I've tried said I needed thousands of dollars of work to be done. Yet, I later found that the actual repair - based on an honest second opinion - was substantially less expensive.

Maybe I'm going to the wrong place for the diagnostic. That's why I'm here trying to get information about the possible cause, & repairs needed, before I wastefully spend money.

Best regards, Dick
 
  #4  
Old 05-11-04, 02:49 PM
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I bought an 88 Nissan Pulsar about a month ago off of ebay for 100 bucks and had the same problem(compressor clutch not engaging)..My cars setup may be different than yours but I'll try and help..first things first, make sure the r12 or R134a(whatever it uses) is up to proper pressure..next check the AC fuse in the fuse box under the dash..is your blue light coming on when you press the AC button..if all this checks out we move on..when you turn the AC on you say your clutch isn't engaging but the pulley is turning..right?..make sure you see that pulley turning if its not turning when the AC is engaged then the clutch has seized and the belt will smoke..With the engine off, see if you can turn the clutch part of the compressor..do you have 2 electric fans in front of the radiator..does the right one come on when the AC is engaged?..disregard if you only have one fan...we move on to the AC relay..its in the engine compartment of my Pulsar, don't know where yours may be..post here again when you do all these things and find your relay and we will continue..also MAKE SURE your putting oil in the AC system along with the freon..They sell cans of the stuff that have the oil and freon mix in the same can..

Bug
 
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Old 05-11-04, 04:19 PM
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OK, now we know your system is empty. Ignore all this stuff in this previous post. Your going to have to have it leak tested somewhere. The system has 3 major components and the leak is likely in 1 of the 3, the evaporator, compressor or condenser. If you have to change any one of those 3, add the related stuff like dryer, expansion valve freon and evacuate and recharge and your well over $500. There's not much in that system that can be repaired much cheaper. If you don't trust the first estimate, then spend another $30 and go get a second opinion. It's not something your going to do yourself. You need a lot of experience to find the leak and some expensive recovery equipment to perform the work. I've seen many a DIYer spend twice as much trying to save money and do it themselves.
 
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Old 05-11-04, 06:22 PM
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Thanks for the replies Desi501 & Bugalou, they're appreciated.

I decided to do my own diagnostic. I invested $25 in a hi/lo pressure gauge at Murrys Auto Parts. It came with some pretty good information regarding pressure testing of both sides & then diagnosing the results.

It became obvious (real fast) that my freon was too low to allow the compressor to kick-in. This was "after" I had already put in one 12 ounce can. While I was adding the second 12 ounce can, the clutch kicked-in & the A/C started to cool. I finished up with a 5 ounce can of "A/C tune-up" which adds oil, leak stop & an A/C performance booster. Final pressures were 50psi on low side & 180psi on the high side.

Now the A/C blows cold air at 44 degrees - measured in the interior A/C vent. That's as good as one of our newer cars here. Of course, it's anyones' guess just how long this will hold pressure. But at $6/can you can buy a lot of freon.

Thanks again for being there when needed guys.

Best regards, Dick
 
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Old 05-11-04, 06:49 PM
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Originally Posted by rckowal
Now the A/C blows cold air at 44 degrees - measured in the interior A/C vent. That's as good as one of our newer cars here. Of course, it's anyones' guess just how long this will hold pressure. But at $6/can you can buy a lot of freon.
Thanks again for being there when needed guys.
Best regards, Dick
You may think you've accomplished something but your going to cost yourself more in the end. Anybody can charge the system and ignore the problem but frequent recharging and running low in the meantime will take out your compressor from lack of lubrication. Then you'll have 2 major components to change instead of 1. Being that you have no idea what is happenning on the high side of the system, you could easily overcharge it and do damage that way. Don't wait until I say "I told you so".
 
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Old 05-11-04, 07:37 PM
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If it runs low again within a couple weeks I'd spend the 30 bucks and have the system dye tested..Basically they put a can of dye in the system and use a special light to find the leak..Maybe your local auto megastore has that stuff..Then just repair the problem area yourself and save some bucks..Check the AC hoses out in the meantime, do any of them have oily spots on them?(especially the ends where their crimped)..

Bug
 

Last edited by Bugalou; 05-11-04 at 07:51 PM.
  #9  
Old 05-11-04, 07:40 PM
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Desi is right - the "leak stop" alone will likely cost you your compressor, once it plugs up the expansion valve. That system holds 36oz. from empty, I think, and you say you added almost 30. That means major leak somewhere, and no amount of "leak stop" (mechanic-in-a-can) will fix it at the pressure it's under.
 
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Old 05-11-04, 07:49 PM
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I just went out and checked the AC pressure on my Pulsar and it dropped 10 pounds from when I filled it 2 days ago..Crap.. I have leak too...I think I'll go to Advance auto in the morning and get some dye and a lamp..

Bug
 
  #11  
Old 05-12-04, 04:08 AM
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bugalou just because there is a 10 psi pressure difference from when you filled it does not mean you necassarly have a leak, pressure will vary greatly depending on ambient temperatures outside and even versus a warmed up vehicle or cold vehicle.
 
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Old 05-12-04, 04:16 AM
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All you guys that think plugging a $10 gauge on to your low side without analyzing the whole picture is going to tell you anything is "dead wrong". All this stuff is marketed for one reason, to make money for the seller. This is much more complicated than you realize. Many factors will change low side pressure like..Does it use an expansion valve of oriface tube? Ambient temperature changes it, blower speed changes it. Recirculating inside air changes it. Restrictions in the system changes it. Condenser performance changes it. Dumping freon into a severely leaking system is called "venting" and is against federal law. As much as you may hate to hear it, this is not a job for a DIYer. All you can accomplish is damage.
 
  #13  
Old 05-12-04, 04:45 AM
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I would agree that most a/c work is not a diy repair as most people do not have a way to reclaim the system or pull a vacum on the system which will leave air in the sytem and cause excessivly high pressures when refilled. or even the equipment to check for leaks a large leak in a hose might be very obvious but smaller ones will not.
if you wish to repair the system yourself to save money atleast have it diagnosed and reclaimed and filled at a shop most shops dont charge very much to perform a a/c system check in most cases.
 
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Old 05-12-04, 08:02 AM
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I have to disagree with you guys on DIY AC repairs, if you have the proper factory manuals(and I'm not talking about hayes and chiltons)..and the basic knowledge of how an AC system works it can be trouble shooted...Now most systems today are 134a , many older cars like my 88 pulsar were converted long ago to this type(I believe its not against federal law if it leaks out and it doesn't hurt the ozone layer)..I put 134a in 4 days ago to proper pressure..I tested my system 3 days ago when car was cold(didn't start it) and outside temp was 55, dropped 2 lbs(didn't think much of it)..tested it yesterday(same parameters) and had 10 lb loss so I have a pretty good idea that its leaking and with the proper equipement I can find that leak and repair it myself..I know my particular model and how its systems are set up better then any mechanic I could bring it to, I know where all the relays are, fuses and have all the wiring diagrams(which helped me find a broken connection in the wiring harness to the compressor when my clutch wouldn't engage)...I live out in the sticks too and the closest garage are a bunch of thiefs...THIEFS I tell you..(present company excluded)...I took my 97 Dodge Ram 1500 to them for a fuel pump a few years ago and they charged me $450 for an hours work..The worst thing about it is they charged me 350 just for the fuel pump part alone and I know they got it from the Napa store near me because I heard them on the phone asking for the part..I called up Napa and found out the pump was 210 bucks if they sold it to me and 200 bucks if I was a shop..From that day, I do all my repair work..

Bug
 
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Old 05-12-04, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Bugalou
(I believe its not against federal law if it leaks out and it doesn't hurt the ozone layer).. Bug
Your dead wrong on both counts.

Bugalou, your one of those guys that knows just enough to get in a lot of trouble. I suppose you think that shop should have sold you that pump at their cost and then gaurantee it and the labor to put it in.....wrong!

You THINK you know more about your car than any mechanic you could bring it to. That's a joke. If you really knew what you were doing, you wouldn't be still chasing the same leak.

Too many precautions and observations have to be made in repairing A/C. Miss one important fact and your doing it all over again. Mishandle one "O" ring and your doing it all over again. Overlook the root cause of a compressor failure and you doing it all over again. A $10 gauge doesn't make you a technician.
 
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Old 05-12-04, 01:41 PM
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I think this has turned into a great discussion. It's caused differing opinions to surface. Such information is much more helpful to readers than to just recommend that we get a diagnostic (even though that is also good advice).

This way we can at least be better aware of our options. Then we can decide if we want to roll the dice or to pay the big bucks to professionals to do the work. We will have better information on which to base the decision (rather than somebody who may just be out to rip me off).

When everyone in the entire auto repair industry becomes honest (& I know most of them are) I'll believe in their diagnostics. In the meantime I'll rely more on "gut feel" & learning on my own.

In reply to the comment "leak stop" alone will likely cost you your compressor, once it plugs up the expansion valve......There are various kinds of leak stops (which is an inaccurate term since they only slow down leaks, not "stop" them). The type I used is an "O" ring seal conditioner which is dispersed in compressor oil - not a METAL LEAK STOPPER. From what I understand the latter is the "bad actor". Seal conditioners have been around & used succesfully for a long time.

And "but frequent recharging and running low in the meantime will take out your compressor from lack of lubrication......I added oil when I added the R134.

And "Being that you have no idea what is happenning on the high side of the system, you could easily overcharge it and do damage that way".....I said that both the HIGH and the LOW side pressures - not just the LOW side - were measured with an appropriate gauge & found to be within factory recommended pressures.

Best regards, Dick
 
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Old 05-12-04, 01:49 PM
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r134a is not ozone friendly which means it still supposedly harms the ozone layer it is just less harmful than r12 less harmful in the number of years it hangs around the upper atmosphere.
as per laws it really isnt applied to individuals repairing there vehicles as it is to automotive shops and while anyone can go buy r134a or alternatives refrigerants to r12 i would suspect whithin the next few years you will not be able to unless you are licensed.
 
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Old 05-12-04, 01:53 PM
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I'll have to look at the law sometime, but I believe there may, indeed, be laws against a leaking A/C system, but only an EPA certified person can be fined. If you aren't EPA certified and you only work on your own stuff, I don't see how you can get into much trouble, the EPA doesn't know who you are. You can buy R134a without certification and all the other stuff you need to work on a car's A/C. Sure, you may screw things up and cost yourself some bucks, but if you are careful, and have learned the basics, that isn't too likely. I've been do'n my own auto A/C stuff for years, without a bit of trouble. That includes converting many, many vehicles from R12 to R134a. So far, so good. I haven't been impressed with the "knowledge" that the local auto mechanics show regarding A/C systems.
 
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Old 05-12-04, 01:56 PM
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Hmm.. you think a 150 dollar mark-up on a part is right??..Poleaseeee..I ALSO THINK 75 BUCKS AN HOUR IS ENOUGH COMPENSATION WITHOUT RIPPING A PERSON OFF ON PARTS TOO...as for the guarantee on the part, that guarantee is from Napa so they pay nothing for it if it konks out within warranty and as for the labor for install..It could have been done in 30 minutes but the guy was screwing around for 30 minutes talking to some chick that stopped for gas, I watched him and they charged me for an hour..If I bought the part from Napa myself and put it in I would get a full year warranty on it instead of the 90 days the garage gave me...As I stated before I know my Nissan inside and out because I practically rebuilt the thing over the past 30 days(head gasket change,new oil pump, New fuel injectors,clutch, ball joints,struts,springs, CV axle and seal, rewired backup lights,new fuse box,alternator,water pump, replaced a bad coil pack)..it also has a CA18DE engine which is shoehorned in the thing and its a FWD making it even tighter to work on...So don't tell me I know nothing and as for the Dodge Ram..nothing has really gone wrong with it since the fuel pump replacement, I replaced the right front wheel bearing-hub assembly and universal joint last month but thats about it..I have the factory manual for it and it was a snap...and I don't know what your talking about when you said I didn't fix the leak before, I just found out it was leaking and I will repair it MYSELF ....On a side note I have another vehicle that no so-called mechanic around here will even touch and you probably wouldn't either..Its a 89 Jaguar XJS V12 with Lucas electical system and as you must be well aware of its one of most difficult and problematic production cars ever made and it takes a great deal of specialized knowledge and skill to diagnose and repair( which 99% of mechanics in the US don't have)..but you know what, I have trouble shooted and fixed every thing that has gone wrong on this vehicle in the last 5 years including fixing 2 AC leaks which I found because of the oil spots on hoses (with the help of the 500 page factory manual ofcourse) and it has over 120,000 miles on the engine which is rare for this car..So don't tell me I know nothing about cars

Bug
 
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Old 05-12-04, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by bejay
as per laws it really isnt applied to individuals repairing there vehicles as it is to automotive shops and while anyone can go buy r134a or alternatives refrigerants to r12 i would suspect whithin the next few years you will not be able to unless you are licensed.
Intentionally releasing, or causing to be released, any refrigerant whether it be R12 or R134 is considered "venting". Venting is against federal law for "anyone". Although there may be alternatives for R12 out there, the ONLY refrigerants federally approved for automotive use R12 and R134.
 
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Old 05-12-04, 02:00 PM
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I used to have a Jag, myself. Joke: You know why the English like warm beer? Answer: Lucus makes electrical systems for beer coolers. Know what you mean about Lucus electrical systems.
 
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Old 05-12-04, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Bugalou
.as for the guarantee on the part, that guarantee is from Napa so they pay nothing for it if it konks out within warranty and as for the labor for install..It could have been done in 30 minutes but the guy was screwing around for 30 minutes talking to some chick that stopped for gas, I watched him and they charged me for an hour..If I bought the part from Napa myself and put it in I would get a full year warranty on it instead of the 90 days the garage gave me
Obviously, you couldn't do it yourself or you wouldn't be crying about how much they charged you. I guess you think tools and equipment grow on trees and technicians aren't entitled to a profit for their investment and constant training. I hope that mechanic told you never to come back because I sure would have. That shop's a lot better off without your business.
 
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Old 05-12-04, 02:52 PM
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I said I had it done a few years ago, I had just bought the Dodge and didn't have the factory manual yet..Plus I made the mistake of trusting this guy for a fair deal..I see hes pretty much empty most of the time and I've talked to alot of people about him..they ALL said hes a rip and to stay away and bring my car to so and so in the next town...if you still don't think 75 bucks an hour and a 150 dollar mark-up on a part is excessive, well then I feel sorry for the person that goes to you for repairs..

bug
 
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Old 05-12-04, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Bugalou
..if you still don't think 75 bucks an hour and a 150 dollar mark-up on a part is excessive, well then I feel sorry for the person that goes to you for repairs..
In this area cadillac gets $90 per hour, PepBoys gets $75 and the average is $70-75 for independents. A part that costs the Dealer $200 and sells for $350 is a 43% margin and well acceptable in the trade. I just sent a piece of marine electronics out for repair and they charge $70 per hour. Business has to remain profitable to stay in business and that's what it takes. If you don't want to pay the prevailing rate, then continue to pull your hair out with your Jaguar. We don't need customers that aren't willing to pay fair market value.
 
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Old 05-12-04, 04:48 PM
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I was in business for myself over twenty years and I gotta say, 70 bucks an hour isn't unreasonable these days. It takes a lot of money to pay for all the insurance, paper work, taxes, test equipement, employee wages & benefits, ect.ect. We never got to 70 bucks/hour but I retired from business about 10 years ago. Costs have gone up since then. Now, don't get me wrong, I don't like to pay those hight prices either, and do most things myself, but I do feel that a GOOD shop with GOOD employees are worth 70 bucks and hour in the auto A/C repair business. I'm just glad I don't have to pay that myself.
 
  #26  
Old 05-12-04, 05:21 PM
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I'm not disputing the $75 an hour , I'm disputing the 150 dollar mark-up on the part on top of the $75 and hour..In the area where I live , land is dirt cheap and taxes are too(thats why I moved up here from NYC) and people really don't have much money ..so for this guy to charge that much is criminal..As for pulling my hair out with the Jag, well.. theres nothing to pull out..hehe.. They say you have entered the dark side when you get a car with a lucas system in it but it isn't really that bad

Bug
 
  #27  
Old 05-12-04, 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by rckowal
In reply to the comment "leak stop" alone will likely cost you your compressor, once it plugs up the expansion valve......There are various kinds of leak stops (which is an inaccurate term since they only slow down leaks, not "stop" them). The type I used is an "O" ring seal conditioner which is dispersed in compressor oil - not a METAL LEAK STOPPER. From what I understand the latter is the "bad actor". Seal conditioners have been around & used succesfully for a long time.

And "but frequent recharging and running low in the meantime will take out your compressor from lack of lubrication......I added oil when I added the R134.

And "Being that you have no idea what is happenning on the high side of the system, you could easily overcharge it and do damage that way".....I said that both the HIGH and the LOW side pressures - not just the LOW side - were measured with an appropriate gauge & found to be within factory recommended pressures.

Best regards, Dick
First, "seal conditioners" are better termed seal swellers. If you had ever seen an orifice tube (expansion valve), you'd know how and why any foreign substance in the system will clog them. Not to mention the fact that these tubes carry o-rings. Seal expansion = tube restriction. Second, adding oil randomly does not guarantee a proper oil charge. Finally, gauge readings depend on many things, ambient temp. and relative humidity among them. The readings you mentioned sounded a little off to me (hi on the low, low on the hi), for what has to be very close to a full charge of freon. Having added the miracle can of "a/c tune-up", now you need to flush it too.
 
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Old 05-12-04, 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Bugalou
I'm not disputing the $75 an hour , I'm disputing the 150 dollar mark-up on the part on top of the $75 and hour.. Bug
That's a 43% gross profit and that's perfectly acceptable. The norm is 40-50% on non-dealer parts. Take a business class. they tell you not to go below 50%. Nothing wrong with his prices.
 

Last edited by Desi501; 05-13-04 at 03:10 PM.
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Old 05-12-04, 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Bugalou
if you still don't think 75 bucks an hour and a 150 dollar mark-up on a part is excessive, well then I feel sorry for the person that goes to you for repairs..

bug
Couldn't let this one slide.....
You got off easy - If it had been me, you'd have paid for an O.E. pump and $100 an hour. Not because I'm a "Rip", but because I fix it right and charge what I'm worth. Put a cool mil of tools and equipment out under your old oak tree, and then tell me how much you're worth.
 
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Old 05-12-04, 07:03 PM
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This is a do it yourself site..People come here to get away from rip off clowns like you , they want to know how to fix it themselves and put the massive savings in their pockets instead of yours.. You prey on the ignorance of people who don't know any better but the people who come to this forum know theres a better way and with a few tools, a good factory manual and determination they can learn how to fix their own cars...and I will be here to tell them how to if I can...For the prices you charge, might as well bring it to the dealer(with their 10 million worth of equipment) and have someone who knows what their doing work on it and it would be cheaper..

Bug
 
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Old 05-13-04, 02:38 AM
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Like I said, you know just enough to make a fool out of yourself. With today's technology costs, real estate costs and payroll costs, EPA costs, there's no way to keep the prices where you think they should be. Wake up and smell the roses.........

PS, If I were you, I wouldn't ask any of these so called "Rip Off Clowns" for any free help.
 
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Old 05-13-04, 03:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Desi501
Like I said, you know just enough to make a fool out of yourself. With today's technology costs, real estate costs and payroll costs, EPA costs, there's no way to keep the prices where you think they should be. Wake up and smell the roses.........

PS, If I were you, I wouldn't ask any of these so called "Rip Off Clowns" for any free help.
Couldn't have said it any better myself. Must be kind of hard to smell the roses anyway when he lives in the world of WallyZone.... too many of those CHEAP plastic suckers. Signed: the "rip off clown."
 
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Old 05-13-04, 11:43 AM
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Its mechanics like you(in your cases, I use the word "mechanic" very loosely here) that gives the profession a bad rep and that is what drives people to DIY forums like this one...and don't worry about me asking any advice from a bunch of clowns like you..Do any of you by chance have old washing machines on your front porch and a few junked cars on your lawn?.. and Desi, a mark-up of $150 on a $200 part is a 75% mark-up but I didn't want to mention this before cause I figured your missing a few of your toes that you use to count with..



Bug
 

Last edited by Bugalou; 05-13-04 at 11:53 AM.
  #34  
Old 05-13-04, 01:19 PM
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More Information On AC To Consider

This is for anyone still following the thread about DIY auto AC repairs - rather than the cat/dog fight that broke out.

I believe that we are all entitled to our opinions. However, here is what I found from professional sources that doesn't agree with some of the opinions expressed in this forum about DIY recharging & leak sealers.

I took my car over to one of the largest & most reputable auto AC shops in the metro Detroit area - & trust me, there are many of them here. I explained what I had done to DIY re-fill my system & the concerns expressed on this forum that I had screwed up by putting leak sealer in it. They said "it isn't likely that there will be any problems from doing so as long as the amount used was small. I used a "TINY" 1/4 ounce dye/seal blend.

I called several auto parts stores in the area. They said "they have not seen or heard of clogging resulting from the use of AC sealers in the 5 plus years they have been on the market".

Also, if you want to read comments about such sealers from a respected Auto AC repair shop/mechanics magazine, try this site.

http://www.coolprofits.com/articles/...ealants_p1.htm

From the above article. I see that even some of the highly regarded "big players" in auto chemicals/lubricants, including "Castrol", market such products. I doubt that they would be doing so if they thought these sealers were likely to damage AC systems. They don't like law suits for marketing harmful products anymore than anyone else does.

If it turns out that I did screw up, I'll be the first to admit it. I would not like to see anyone else get hurt based on the information I've presented here.
 
  #35  
Old 05-13-04, 01:50 PM
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I highly doubt that any a/c sealer will actually clog your a/c system but on the other hand they usually are not very effective and only stop or even slow the leakage in the a/c system a very small percentage of the time. as per there use almost any auto manufacturer would rather the leaking component be replaced and repaired correctly than attempting to even use a stop leak product in their a/c systems.
although there is alot of stop leak products on the market not just for a/c systems but for cooling systems,engine oil additives, and engine oils such as some of the newer high mileage oils, and they all have the potential of causing more damage in the long run.
 
  #36  
Old 05-13-04, 02:32 PM
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I don't know how I missed this thread but if certain aspects of it continue it will be closed.One little note about stop leak for a/c if a shop recovers refrig with stop leak in it and they have a warranty claim on the machine they will lose.So stop leak causes shops more expense which will be passed to the consumer.
 
  #37  
Old 05-13-04, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Bugalou
and Desi, a mark-up of $150 on a $200 part is a 75% mark-up but I didn't want to mention this before cause I figured your missing a few of your toes that you use to count with..
Bug
In all your infinite wisdom, you never learned how to calculate gross profit, I see.

If you divide the cost by the selling price, you get the inversion of the actual gross profit. Hence $150 is 43% of $350. You definately need some business school I see.


RCKOWAL

I'm sure the amount you used will have no effect on your system although i will add that these sealers are not approved or endorsed by any auto manufacturer. All the endorsements from the link you quoted were from the sealer manufacturers. There are large companies all over the world selling gimmicks and scams to make money. after all that's what marketing is, getting you to buy something whether it works or not. Haven't you ever watched TV on Sunday mornings? Every product is the greatest thing since the refrigerator with endorsements from the greatest people in the world, but guess what, none of them work. As far as we are concerned, repairing a car means restoring it to original operation. No Band-aids.
 

Last edited by Desi501; 05-13-04 at 03:25 PM.
  #38  
Old 05-13-04, 03:26 PM
Bugalou
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The war is over between you 2.Davo
 

Last edited by davo; 05-13-04 at 04:23 PM. Reason: Off topic
  #39  
Old 05-13-04, 03:28 PM
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The war is over.Davo
 

Last edited by davo; 05-13-04 at 04:22 PM. Reason: Off topic
  #40  
Old 05-13-04, 04:25 PM
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I warned you guys now it's a closed issue and don't start elsewhere.
 
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