High speed vibration/shimmy issues

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  #1  
Old 11-22-04, 05:06 PM
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High speed vibration/shimmy issues

I need some assistance. I bought my 2004 Accord V6 in July from a local dealer---good to deal with, BTW. Anyway, shortly after taking a road trip, I noticed a shimmy at 73-80mph on smooth roads. It wasn't bad, but it was noticable. I took it in at 2,000 miles and they balanced the tires/rims. I drove the car on a road trip and noticed the same vibration. I decided to wait until the first oil change.

At 4,000 miles I went in and talked to them about it and they balanced all the tires/rims...again. Took the car on a trip and still have the vibration. Sighhh....

They also put the car on their new alignment machine that they just purchased for the dealership. Turns out my alignment was off in every spec (caster, camber and toe)---the toe was WAY out.

I took the car to a local shop that has the Hunter Roadforce GSP9700 machine thinking they could solve the vibes. They found the two front tires/rims were just slightly out. They checked a total of three times after correcting and everything zeroed out. Good to go, right?

Hit the road and I still have a vibration. Damn it. I come home, frustrated and there sit my snow tires and steelies. I slap them on quickly and hit the road. Get this----even with snow tires, there is NO vibration up to the tire limited speed of 100mph. Unreal. I was happy and upset at the same time. Why on earth would snow tires be smoother than the stock Michelin tires and 2004 Accord rims? Makes NO sense to me at all.

I emailed my dealer but don't know what to do now. Frankly, I'd like them to give me new rims and tires. I almost wonder if driving them on a car that was out of alignment for 4,000 miles caused a problem that isn't reversable?? I'm absolutely convinced that it was out of alignment from day one----I've taken the car on nothing but road trips----smooth roads where we cruise at 70-80mph.

I'm open for suggestions as this is frustraing on a car with 4,000 miles. For now, the snow tires are staying on as we won't be driving the car until the middle of December at which point snow tires will be needed.

Thanks in advance for your suggestions.

Curt
 
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Old 11-23-04, 04:51 AM
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For starters I wouldn't mention to the dealer that you were test driving the vehicle at 100 mph.

Keep after the dealer to fix it and make sure you get a printout everytime you have it in. By now they've had enough chances to fix it, so I would insist on speaking to the next honcho up the chain of command, usually a regional poobah.
 
  #3  
Old 11-23-04, 05:21 AM
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Originally Posted by the_tow_guy
For starters I wouldn't mention to the dealer that you were test driving the vehicle at 100 mph.

Keep after the dealer to fix it and make sure you get a printout everytime you have it in. By now they've had enough chances to fix it, so I would insist on speaking to the next honcho up the chain of command, usually a regional poobah.
Luckily the service manager has already agreed over email that if it comes to swapping out tires, rims, etc. that he'll do it. I'm giving them another shot at it this Friday. If no resolution, I'm going to ask for a completely new set of rims and tires.

Thanks,
Curt
 
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Old 11-23-04, 06:24 PM
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All your symptoms seem top point in one direction, a hard impact to at least one oif the wheels. Being out of alignment has absolutely nothing to do with shimmy or vibration BUT, everything being out would lead you to believe something was hit which would also explain bent wheels and vibration. Don't rule out the dealer could have swapped those wheels from another customer's car that was having a problem before you.
 
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Old 11-23-04, 11:46 PM
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Funny anecdote;

I went on a long raod trip with a fairly new car myself (about 16K at the time). I got what I thought were vibrations and a darned vibrating sound. After going out of my mind and looking at everything that it could possibly be, before actually bringing it into a dealer, and couldn't find anything. Finally, I parked at a parking meter and reached into my cigarette butts collector thingy and pulled out a quarter for the meter (don't smoke, so I use it for my quarters) and when I pulled off, I hadn't returned the tray. While driving subsequently, there was no more vibration. Come to find out, it was the frickin tray full to the rim with quarters causing the "vibrations".

In other words, sometimes the problem could be right under your nose. In my case, I'm just an idiot who didn't know the difference between a vibration and a vibrating sound coming from quarters in a cigarette butt collector tray going at 60mph. I don't doubt that you're having rim troubles, but do be sure the issues aren't related to something completely out of the expected. Does it vibrate any at all when you idle? Think outside the box.


Just sticking my nose where it doesn't belong.
 
  #6  
Old 11-24-04, 06:03 AM
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I appreciate your help, folks. To answer some questions. I bought the car with 2 miles. While it's possible someone hit something, I highly doubt it. I think the alignment was off because they never set it right at the factory, OR it was beat up a bit on the truck. Makes me cringe. Anyway, the car has 4,000 miles on it now and I've never hit a thing with it---other than the road for a trip. Ha!

I honestly wonder is having the car out of alignment feathered, cupped or otherwise caused just enough irregular wear that they now can't be balanced. I know that faulty alignment doesn't cause vibration---but irregular wear certainly can. That said, I can tell two tires are worn a bit more than the others. Since it's FWD, I kind of expect that as the two that are slightly more worn were on the front. Anyway...

In terms of the vibration---it's not a noise. I can *feel* it at speeds above 65mph. I travel at 75mph on the turnpike all the time. I don't think that's unreasonable to ask a $27k car to be smooth. Wouldn't you agree?

I don't feel any vibes at idle. I do feel vibes at 75mph with the tranny in neutral---tells me it's probably not the transmission.

My dealer has me coming back in on Friday. This will be the 4th attempt. He said he's willing to replace tires, rims---whatever it takes. I appreciate his being willing to help. I'm just frustrated because it does take time out of my day to drive over and back and sit and wait. I know, I know, if I want it fixed, I have to do that. The thing is, I should have to on a new car. Anyway, I'm just venting a bit. I really am happy that the dealer is being as good about it as they are.

I'll report back on Friday afternoon.

Wish me luck!
Curt
 
  #7  
Old 11-24-04, 11:35 AM
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You may want to check out your state's lemon law if you just can't get it fixed. Its a last resort option.....you made need a lawyer for it. Good thing the dealer is working with you on this. Good luck!
 
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Old 11-26-04, 04:43 PM
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I went to the dealer today and had their head tech ride with me. We didn't have to drive very far before he instantly agreed there was a vibration in the seats--for sure.

The shop manager agreed to swap new rims and tires off a car on the lot. They put them on my car and told me to drive it 100 miles as it would need to heat the new tires up since they had been sitting on that car for a while----it was a new car.

I drove 250 miles today and the damn thing shakes more than it did with my old setup!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm going back tomorrow to see what they have to say. My wife thinks I should pursure the lemon law as it's now been 4 times to the shop with no fix.

Again, stock 2004 Sedan V6 16" rims with Michelin tires. Pressure set at 35psi all around.


Sigh.........

Curt
 
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Old 11-26-04, 05:14 PM
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Pressure set at 35psi all around.
Is that the Honda recommended pressure from the owners manuel or tire placard in the door?
 
  #10  
Old 11-26-04, 11:08 PM
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If it comes to this, talk to the manager, owner, or whoever is the head honcho at the dealership or region and tell them you have tried in good faith to work with the service dept. in getting this issue resolved, with great inconvenience to you after paying $27K and you think it is only fair that you get a new car to replace it, or a new car, equivalent to yours, to drive until its fixed and someone there has driven it themselves long enough to verify the problem is fixed. You'll have to be assertive and let him/her know you aren't happy about this, but don't go ranting and raving about it, at least not yet. Keep all records and dates and time you have spent with this problem. Try your best to solve it out of court. You probably shouldn't mention the snow tires, if you haven't told them about that....don't give them any reason to blame you.
 
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Old 11-27-04, 04:04 AM
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Originally Posted by jeff67
If it comes to this, talk to the manager, owner, or whoever is the head honcho at the dealership or region and tell them you have tried in good faith to work with the service dept. in getting this issue resolved, with great inconvenience to you after paying $27K and you think it is only fair that you get a new car to replace it, or a new car, equivalent to yours, to drive until its fixed and someone there has driven it themselves long enough to verify the problem is fixed. You'll have to be assertive and let him/her know you aren't happy about this, but don't go ranting and raving about it, at least not yet. Keep all records and dates and time you have spent with this problem. Try your best to solve it out of court. You probably shouldn't mention the snow tires, if you haven't told them about that....don't give them any reason to blame you.
This is good advice; however, mentioning the snow tires is actually a good idea. I say that because those are smooth. That bascially proves to them that it's not a problem with the car; it's the tires and rims.

I'm heading back to the dealer right now to chat with them.

Curt
 
  #12  
Old 11-27-04, 04:06 AM
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Originally Posted by toyotaman11769
Is that the Honda recommended pressure from the owners manuel or tire placard in the door?
Nope. I just lowered it to 32 in the front and 30 in the rear. I also took each wheel off and sanded the rust on the rotor where the wheels mounts---same on the face of the wheel. This was, it's a smooth fit. I also made sure the wheels were centered before torquing the lugs down.

I'm off to the dealer now.

Curt
 
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Old 11-29-04, 05:40 AM
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Weird problem, mate. What happened in the end?

Chris
 
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Old 11-29-04, 06:16 AM
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Originally Posted by WorldBuilder
Weird problem, mate. What happened in the end?

Chris

I wish I was at the "end." It's at the dealer now and I'm waiting to hear what they've decided to do. I'm at a loss myself. I've never seen such a situation; especially on a new car. With a new car, you should be able to throw out---possible worn suspension parts, etc. That *should* leave you with---faulty balance, bad tire or a bad rim. Hopefully with just those three variables, we can come to a resolution.

Hopefully I'll know more this week.
Thanks,
Curt
 
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Old 11-30-04, 04:55 AM
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Got a feeling you're going to find something either really simple, like a bad CV joint or a rotor/drum that is out of round, or something really exotic, like the frame is bent. Just a hunch. I mention the CV because a couple of years ago I beat my brains out over a shake & shimmy that ended up being one; of course, mine had about 100k miles on them.....

Haven't figured out why the snow tire fix works, except that I suppose snow tires maybe weigh more and might mask a problem that a lighter tire would exhibit (haven't had to deal with snow tires for several decades).
 
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Old 11-30-04, 05:38 AM
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Originally Posted by the_tow_guy
Got a feeling you're going to find something either really simple, like a bad CV joint or a rotor/drum that is out of round, or something really exotic, like the frame is bent. Just a hunch. I mention the CV because a couple of years ago I beat my brains out over a shake & shimmy that ended up being one; of course, mine had about 100k miles on them.....

Haven't figured out why the snow tire fix works, except that I suppose snow tires maybe weigh more and might mask a problem that a lighter tire would exhibit (haven't had to deal with snow tires for several decades).

Good input--thank you. The fact the snow tires work makes me think there's nothing wrong with the car. It makes me think it's the stock rims and tires causing the problems. It's easy for me to say that, I know. If that's the case, then we're back to faulty tires, rims, or both. To further complicate the problem, it could also be faulty balancers, or technicians that really don't know how to operate the machines.

Sigh...
Curt
 
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Old 11-30-04, 03:21 PM
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Have you and the head tech taken a new car out to drive to see if it may be inherent to the design?Some people are overly sensitive to vibration,nothing personal.At the very least if you feel you are not getting the satifaction you feel you need ask the district manager to have another dealer check the car.
 
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Old 11-30-04, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by davo
Have you and the head tech taken a new car out to drive to see if it may be inherent to the design?Some people are overly sensitive to vibration,nothing personal.At the very least if you feel you are not getting the satifaction you feel you need ask the district manager to have another dealer check the car.

It's a good suggestion; however, my car didn't exhibit one bit of vibration when new---read 2 miles. Candidly, I don't care how sensitive one is to vibration, there is no reason to feel the seat of your pants shake, your hands tremble on the steering wheel, the passengers head rest dance and your coke can shake in the cup holder. Sensitive or not, none of those traits should be *expected*; regardless of the cars cost. If it's new, it should be smooth. Period.

Now, I appreciate that some folks are sensitive to feeling imperfections in the road. I can accept imperfections in the road as it hits your hands once as a light to moderate shock; you cringe and hope nothing happened. It's the constant, never ending, tremble of the steering wheel, head rest, seats, your coke, etc. that I can't and won't accept.

Rant off. I'm just frustrated by it all. I honestly wish that it were my being sensitive to imperfections in the road. It's just never ending.....constant SHAKE.

Curt
 
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Old 11-30-04, 03:48 PM
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See you took it personal.Good luck with your car.
 
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Old 11-30-04, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by davo
See you took it personal.Good luck with your car.

Nahh, I was just venting. You just happened to be the unlucky individual that got to listen

Sorry...
Curt
 
  #21  
Old 11-30-04, 04:19 PM
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I agree with Davo, my first step in diagnosing a problem that is very slight or unusual is to verify with the same exact model. It maybe inherent to the vehicle.

If I was going to swap tires and wheels I would verfy the problem dosen't exist in the donor vehicle. Vehicles can sit on the lot and develop flat spots in the tires and driving them sometimes will not straighten them out.

Also
I noticed a shimmy at 73-80mph
No arbitrator in a lemon law hearing is going to drive your car that fast. They will drive the maximum legal speed. And therefore will not consider it an impairment to the value of the vehicle.

And keeping it simple, your problem is with tires or wheels, you already confirmed that.
 
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Old 11-30-04, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by toyotaman11769
I agree with Davo, my first step in diagnosing a problem that is very slight or unusual is to verify with the same exact model. It maybe inherent to the vehicle.
Agreed. I have ridden in another Accord that has 25k on it and it's smooth.

If I was going to swap tires and wheels I would verfy the problem dosen't exist in the donor vehicle. Vehicles can sit on the lot and develop flat spots in the tires and driving them sometimes will not straighten them out.
I agree, completely. I think that's why when they put the tires from a "new" Accord on my car, it didn't work. The "new" car sat for so long that flat spots developed. That's my thought.

Also No arbitrator in a lemon law hearing is going to drive your car that fast. They will drive the maximum legal speed. And therefore will not consider it an impairment to the value of the vehicle.
Ok. Do you think they might buy into it a 60mph? That's when it starts and gets progressivey worse up to 80mph. The tech felt it at 57mph in my car. I thought I *might* have felt it then, but I had no question at 62-65mph. I cruise at 73-80 and feel it all the time. It never stops.

And keeping it simple, your problem is with tires or wheels, you already confirmed that.
I agree. Now I just need to get my dealer to also agree. It was at the dealer all day today and I didn't hear anything back. I hope they put a brand new set of tires on it, take it to the Road Force machine to balance and then test it on the road. That's what I'm hoping for.

Stay tuned...
Curt
 
  #23  
Old 11-30-04, 05:21 PM
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60 mph is different from what you originally stated.

I think a new set of Michelin tires fine balanced and inflated to Hondas spec will solve your problem.

I have yet to have a new Toyota where a new set of Michelins did not take care of a customers expectation of the way their vehicle should feel.

BTW I never had to resort to one of those Hunter Road force balancers.
 
  #24  
Old 11-30-04, 07:43 PM
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I think the dealer should confirm whether or not the problem is with the tires or wheels by installing them on another Accord and testing them that way. If they are fine on another of the exact same car, then the problem lies elsewhere like tow guy said.

Originally Posted by toyotaman11769
Also No arbitrator in a lemon law hearing is going to drive your car that fast. They will drive the maximum legal speed. And therefore will not consider it an impairment to the value of the vehicle.
I believe it is an impairment to the value of the vehicle if other Accords of the same type don't have the same problem and the dealer would have already told him if this wasn't a problem. They have admitted the vibration and took the car in to try and fix it, so they admitted there is a problem that is not normal. As far as the value is concerned, if shumax tried to sell the car or trade it in, and the buyer noticed the vibration, he wouldn't pay as much for it as he would without the vibration.
 
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Old 12-01-04, 02:39 AM
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Originally Posted by toyotaman11769
60 mph is different from what you originally stated.
Acutally, it's just a clarification. I never drive at the speed, so I reported the speeds I DO drive.

I like your suggestion of a new set or tires. I hope that's what the end up trying.

I'll let you guys know...
 
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Old 12-01-04, 05:06 AM
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Originally Posted by shumax
The shop manager agreed to swap new rims and tires off a car on the lot. They put them on my car
Curt
OK, what makes you think the dealer couldn't have done that to your car already to resolve another customer's problem? Some cars do have more sensitive suspensions to imbalance or other ride disturbace issues and it may not take much at all to produce that bad of a ride. The road force balancer may not be something you should have to resort to but it is one of the best diagnostic tools for a wheel/tire ride disturbance problem. The "softer" design of a Michelin tire may be helpful in getting rid of that also.
 
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Old 12-01-04, 05:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Desi501
OK, what makes you think the dealer couldn't have done that to your car already to resolve another customer's problem? Some cars do have more sensitive suspensions to imbalance or other ride disturbace issues and it may not take much at all to produce that bad of a ride. The road force balancer may not be something you should have to resort to but it is one of the best diagnostic tools for a wheel/tire ride disturbance problem. The "softer" design of a Michelin tire may be helpful in getting rid of that also.

I agree with you----it's entirely possible mine were swapped from a problematic car. It doesn't explain why the condition remained when the new set of rims and tires were bolted up---unless they, too, were bad.

I have Micehlin tires on the car---MXV4's 205/60/16. I actually felt these were hard---they have a 440 wear rating and I believe a treadwear warranty over 60k. Tires have to be rather hard to sustain that many miles. Anyway...

I agree with you---new tires that have never been mounted should NOT need the roadforce machine to balance. If they do, there's something wrong with the tire and it should be replaced.

Thanks for your input-
Curt
 
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Old 12-01-04, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by shumax
I have Micehlin tires on the car---MXV4's 205/60/16. I actually felt these were hard---they have a 440 wear rating and I believe a treadwear warranty over 60k. Tires have to be rather hard to sustain that many miles. Anyway...

I agree with you---new tires that have never been mounted should NOT need the roadforce machine to balance. If they do, there's something wrong with the tire and it should be replaced.
-
Curt
Don't put too much creidence in those treadwear ratings. It's solely up to the manufacturer to determine their own rating and are not policed by anyone concerning them. It's become more of a marketing point than actual fact. The treadwear warranty doesn't mean a whole lot either.

I didn't say they should be balanced on a road force machine but the machine will give you a mearsurement in tire lift, overall sidewall rigidity and side to side force. If the problem is in the tires or wheels, the road force machine will find it, assuming the guy knows how to operate it.
 
  #29  
Old 12-02-04, 07:10 AM
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since it is at the dealer

you might want to have them look at the actual chassis of the vehicle to make sure that it isn't bent at all, after all with only 2 miles on it when first purchased, it obviously hadn't been driven that much and definitely not up to 60mph. also it is possible to have a faulty suspension on there from the factory, I looked into buying a minivan from chevy and it had about 11 miles on it. when i test drove it I got it to about 75 mph and the darn thing started shaking around 62. the salesman sitting next to me (who happened to be a friend) was amazed as well. needless to say i didn't buy that vehicle and was later told that the suspension was faulty.
 
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Old 12-11-04, 06:59 AM
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Well, I heard from the dealer. They have agreed to put a "fresh" set of Michelin tires on and have them balanced on the Hunter GSP 9700. I'm going to pick the car up on Monday at noon.

I hope that "fresh" Michelein MXV4 tires being balanced by the Hunter Roadforce machine will eliminate, 1.) Potential faulty/inaccurate balance and 2.) tires that may have flat spotted from sitting on the lot while on another Accord.

We really hope this solves it. After being out of commission for a total of 19 days, we will pick it up this Monday and see how things go. If not, it may be time to have a heart to heart with the owner of the dealership.

Curt
 
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Old 12-13-04, 12:40 PM
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It appears all is well with the car. I arrived at the dealership around 11:30am with my wife and father along to see if they felt anything on the test drive.

We hit varying road surfaces and didn't notice much of anything. On a section of road that was recently paved, I thought I might have felt something, but it could be that the road wasn't totally smooth. Regardless, we had the car up to 85mph and it felt good.

They ended up installing 4 new Michelin MXV4 tires and had them Roadforce balanced on the Hunter Roadforce GSP 9700 balancer.

Thanks again, Eric!
 

Last edited by toyotaman11769; 12-13-04 at 01:28 PM.
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Old 12-13-04, 01:33 PM
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Glad you have it repaired.

Had to edit your post..... I know your happy it's fixed and would like to give props to the dealer but this isn't the place.



Maybe a letter to Honda or the general manager of the dealer will be more helpful.
 
  #33  
Old 12-13-04, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by toyotaman11769
Glad you have it repaired.

Had to edit your post..... I know your happy it's fixed and would like to give props to the dealer but this isn't the place.



Maybe a letter to Honda or the general manager of the dealer will be more helpful.

Why isn't this the place? I'm confused...
 
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Old 12-13-04, 03:08 PM
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The original thread question has been answered/solved so this post is closed.
 
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