Ford timing problem

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  #1  
Old 12-18-04, 09:30 AM
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Ford timing problem

Engine is a 92 4.9 EFI EEC-IV( no vac advance )

How does one time an engine when the ONLY indication of a mark is at the BOTTOM when at #1 TDC. The only indicator I can find looks like a 3 sided square hole at the edge of the damper/balancer. If this is true then it appears that the engine is around 60 out of time. Distributor has never been moved and nothing has happened to cause it to move. Rotor is pointing to #1 at TDC. Engine is running very rough just as if it were out of time. All electrical components have been changed and no vacuum leaks have been detected.

If this engine is indeed 60 out of time, how do I get it back to where it should be. 60 seems a bit much to move by just turning the distributor one way or the other. I am reluctant to remove the distributor from the engine as this seems to place it further out.

This all started with a cracked head and has gone downhill from here.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
 
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  #2  
Old 12-18-04, 12:16 PM
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If the # 1 piston (front right) is at TDC
And the rotor is pointing at the #1 on the cap
The only way I can think of is distributer removal/breakage or timing chain removal/breakage/slippage

Does engine has a timing pointer off the balancer maybe 20* to the right (if you are sitting in the car) of "straight up"?
If it does than the timing marks are etched onto the balancer, and they are just hard to see

Off-hand I think you have the wrong mark

Don't pull the dist. yet, I think it's something else

Was the timing cover taken off for the head problem?
Also is this an H.O. or truck engine?
 
  #3  
Old 12-18-04, 12:47 PM
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Thanks Slickshift,
The engine is in a F150 truck.
A 4.9 is a 300 inline 6 cylinder with EFI so only 1 head.
The timing cover and the dist did not have to be removed or even touched during the head removal.

When I bring #1 up to TDC and pull the cap off the dist. The rotor points to the #1 plug wire. I have checked and checked and the engine is not crosswired. Although this is the sound it makes, that or way out of time.

The timing plate(thing with the jagged teeth coming off the timing cover) is there and there are no other marks on the damper. I have heard that there is supposed to be a different hard to see scribe line on the damper but I can not find any but going out to look once again. Actually going to get another set of eyes to look . Maybe they can see something I can't.

This engine does not have a timing chain but rather a set of timing gears.

Thanks for your assistance, and if you need further information on what has been done to this engine see the post below.

http://forum.doityourself.com/showthread.php?t=191148

Map sensor has been replaced and exhaust has been removed.

Getting very frustrated at this point.
 
  #4  
Old 12-18-04, 12:56 PM
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Sorry, I assumed you were refering to the 302 (8), which is actually a 4.9 liter engine, not the 5.0 that Ford named it
I forgot about the 300 straight six, which is, in fact a 4.9
I'll check out the previous thread
 
  #5  
Old 12-18-04, 01:16 PM
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Just read the link
Timing being waaaaay off would also give some of those symptoms
 
  #6  
Old 12-18-04, 01:38 PM
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I found what I think is the correct mark. Its a very small very thin line scribed onto the damper. Painted this mark so even I could see it. Set the engine at #1 TDC and the mark lines up with "zero" on the timing plate. The engine should be set at 10BTDC.
 
  #7  
Old 12-18-04, 02:18 PM
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OK your timings close enough for Gov't work then
I haven't read about the spark plug wires yet
Make sure they are in the correct order
I don't remember the order off-hand
It's been a while since I've had to worry about it on these engines
And they had timing chains then
 
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Old 12-18-04, 02:21 PM
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Oh, I see "not cross wired"
Fuel pressure test?
 
  #9  
Old 12-18-04, 02:24 PM
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I don't see anywhere if this is speed density or mass air-or am I missing that?
I don't know about the fuelie 300s
 
  #10  
Old 12-18-04, 02:42 PM
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The spark in this engine is controlled by the initial base timing( the one I am trying to make sure is set) and a centrifugal advance mechanism. The only engine that will actually run when the dist is 180 out of time. TFI-IV is that it is also controled by the ign module to advance as needed based on the base timing. The spark and fuel delivery are also controlled by the MAP sensor(also new).

Not really sure what to do at this point since it is close to being at exact time.
The MAP sensor was replaced because when you remove the vac line from it the engine levels out. Still runs like crap but better crap if you understand my meaning. Its doing the same thing with the new sensor.

The sound its making sounds as if it were really badly crosswired. Went out and checked again for the 5th time. Firing order is 1 5 3 6 2 4. Traced all wires on the dist in the order placed going clockwise and all are correct. So I am lost unless someone at the cap factory happen to put the die in the wrong place and the plugs are all 1 off(unlikely).

This engine is mass air I believe
 

Last edited by majakdragon; 12-18-04 at 03:06 PM.
  #11  
Old 12-18-04, 03:59 PM
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Are you sure this engine actually has adjustable timing and doesn't use a crank sensor. I'm not sure about that engine but many times all that distributor does is synch the injectors. If you have a gear on the timing cover with teeth on it, that's usually for a crank sensor to read. If you have a crank sensor, then nothing is adjustable. Some of those Fords have a removable shunt plugged into the EST circuit that when removed, retards the timing by 2-4 degrees.
 
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Old 12-18-04, 06:24 PM
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This model/year does not use the crank or cam sensor.
The gears I was refering to are timing gears rather than a chain.
 
  #13  
Old 12-19-04, 02:21 AM
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If your timing is at zero i would adjust it to 10 btdc degrees where specs call for with the spout connector at the distributer disconnected the 10 degree mark on the indicator is usually a deep v notch and when you set the timing the mark should line up with this deep vmark on the indicatorthen reconnect the spout connector when finished.
10 degrees off is only close enough if you dont mind your vehicle running like crap and adjusting it will make a noticable difference.
once you have timing set then see how the vehicle runs any fouled plugs should be replaced, if it is still missing with new plugs check for leaks at the intake manifold gasket.
you mentioned that you were running open exhuast so i would assume that would eliminate the possibilty of a restricted exhuast system if it is not open and you still have no power suggest pulling the o2 senor and then driving the vehicle to see if there is an improvement.
 
  #14  
Old 12-19-04, 05:06 AM
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Timing Problem?

First off these 6 cylinders have 2 timing pointers. The one on the right side of the motor is the one you use.(stamped steel pointer)(passager side) The mark on the balancer is just the small mark so you may have to clean the balancer to see it. But it does sound like you found that mark. You do have to unplug the spout connector to set the timing. Which that connector is a square black plug by the distributor I think the wire colors are yellow? Timing should be 10 degree BTC. What is the problem with this truck? NO POWER,
and BACK FIRES? Has fuel pressure been checked. What about vacuum leaks at intake manifold? If it's a vacuum leak start the truck and spray WD40 or choke cleaner around the intake manifold and see if the trucks RPM's rise? I have seen the wrong intake manifold gaskets used on these trucks. Please give me more info on the problem you are having.
 
  #15  
Old 12-19-04, 07:41 AM
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Fuel pressure is 40psi and not leaking down. So far have found no vac leaks but will checkagain with the carb cleaner.

The truck sounds as if it is crosswired however its been checked by myself several times and even got a different person to check it. All checks out fine.

The new head is from an 87 EFI and the extra 6 ports(unused on the 92) have been sealed off as per the machinist and the dealer mechanic I spoke with. This head was surfaced and magnafluxed to check for cracks. New seals were installed by the machinist.

The truck has NO power to speak of and after warming up can not get out of its own way. When cold it spits,sputters and pops. If I pull the vac line off the new map sensor it will level out but still lacking in any kind of power when gas is applied. At this point it sounds like an old poppin john tractor. Runs about like that also. If I plug the vac lines back in it will just almost die.

I will check with carb cleaner and pull the O2 sensor, will let you know what happens at this point.

As far as I could tell during the installation, the intake gaskets were the correct one(s). The intake gasket part numbers are the same for the 92 and the 87 EFI.
When started there is no knocking sound just runs very rough.
 
  #16  
Old 12-19-04, 10:23 AM
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I think your pressure is a little low the 4.9 usually calls for 55-60 psi key on engine off maybe someone that actually has the specs for your model will post but the 4.9l fuel pressure specs are slightly different than the 302 and 351.
 
  #17  
Old 12-19-04, 10:43 AM
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Specs.

Fuel pressure Specs. 45-60 psi (running). 50-60 psi with (key on engine off). What the fuel pressure when you are driving it?
 
  #18  
Old 12-19-04, 01:28 PM
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Fuel pressure is 55 with key on engine off.
Right now it won't start.. To cold I suppose 26.

I did notice something though. There is oil leaking from somewhere around the passanger side where the exhaust bolts into the head. New gasket was used and bolts torqued. It does not appear to be coming from where the head is bolted to the lower engine.
 
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