Took car to Shop 3 Times and still dies out

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  #1  
Old 07-31-05, 02:43 AM
shelby11
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Took car to Shop 3 Times and still dies out

89 Buick Electra 3.8L
84,000, good maintance

First symptom
The car turned off while driving. I would have to put it in neutral to restart the car and continue my drive. This would happen 3 to 5 times in a 20 mile drive.Took the car to the shop three separate times and i got three different repairs. Frist they changed the fuel pump, then the ignition coils and module, finally the ecm. Keep in mind the shop returned the car to me after every failed repair. The ecm replacement stopped my vehicle from dying while driving. But after the repair now my car dies out when ever i come to a complete stop and accelerate quickly. Its frustrating having to slowly accelerate while turning, because if I punch it, the car dies out about 3 times out of every ten.

Second symptom started last week
When i go to start the car it just cranks repeatedly for about 4 seconds and when it turns on i have to accelerate or it will shut off. This happens mostly when the car is not warmed up, but if Ive been driving and the car is warm it will turn on.
 
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  #2  
Old 07-31-05, 06:38 AM
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CEL on?

Is the check engine light on?If so what codes?
 
  #3  
Old 07-31-05, 06:39 AM
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Are you saying the car will never start while in Park? It must be in neutral? Suspect the neutral safety switch or connectors.
 
  #4  
Old 07-31-05, 09:04 AM
shelby11
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Will Check Code,

You know what the check engine light is on. I will check it and post code back later in the evening. Oh and yes the vehicle dies out when in park, it cranks repeatedly before it starts. And when i get ignition I have to accelerate just to keep the engine firing. It wont stay on while at idle..

I wonder if the overcranking can be the starter. What do you think?
Ive heard of starter draw test, and info on doing one is appreciated?
 
  #5  
Old 07-31-05, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by shelby11
I wonder if the overcranking can be the starter. What do you think?
Ive heard of starter draw test, and info on doing one is appreciated?
If I am understanding you symptoms correctly it's highly unlikely it's your starter
 
  #6  
Old 08-01-05, 05:29 PM
shelby11
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Used a Actron The SUPER AutoScanner

These are the codes I got

Current Code
- Code 41
- Camshaft Sensor
- Loss of Signal

History Code
- Code 41
- Camshaft Sensor
- Loss of Signal

So is this code was causing my car to die?
I retrieved thesed codes pretty easily, I wonder why the shop was not able to retreive them. Any Feed back would be great.
 
  #7  
Old 08-01-05, 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by shelby11
So is this code was causing my car to die?
Well the loss of the camshaft sensor signal was that's for sure
 
  #8  
Old 08-01-05, 06:00 PM
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Originally Posted by shelby11
I wonder why the shop was not able to retreive them.
I don't know, but it looks like they are not as good as you at this stuff
 
  #9  
Old 08-01-05, 06:13 PM
shelby11
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Going to RR the camshaft sensor.

These procedure I got via Google, What do you guys Think?

Procedure 1
You have to first remove the passenger tire and plastic dirt schroud. The senser on my car is located below the water pump, and above the harmonic balancer on the left side. My research shows that your senser will be on the right side. Once you locate the senser, first disconnect the neg. terminal on the battery,next snap off the elec. connecter. A 3/8 bolt needs to be backed out, then you can remove the senser with your fingers. Reverse your steps to reinstall. Total time for the job was 1 hour 30 min.

Procedure 2
The sensor itself mounts on the outside of the timing chain cover, just left of the hamonic balancer. Easy way to get at it is to remove the right wheel and the splash guards. I understand that it is usually not the sensor that fails, but the magnet that is attached to the cam gear under the cover. As the gear spins it triggers the sensor.You can use a mirror and flashlight to see the magnet to see if it lookay ok. If it still has good magnetic pull when you touch metal to it, it's probably OK

I wait for some feedback before I due my first camshaft sensor RR.
 
  #10  
Old 08-01-05, 07:27 PM
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replace the sensor.
 
  #11  
Old 08-01-05, 07:34 PM
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Some of the older 3.8s, need that sensor to be adjusted after install, the newer ones can only be installed one way. I believe yours is the older version. Since this sensor completes logic for firing voltage, and your car will start but not stay running, it only may need an adjustment.
 
  #12  
Old 08-01-05, 08:02 PM
shelby11
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Adjustment, Thats interesting

Im going to change it, but have no idea on how to adjust it, any ideas? if not im just going to wing it.
 
  #13  
Old 08-02-05, 05:12 AM
duke spinner
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why not take it back o your shop .. for "adjustment" ....
 
  #14  
Old 08-02-05, 05:59 AM
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I doubt that the cam sensor is even causing the problem you describe while you should look into fixing it, there is no adjustment to the cam sensor and their is a good chance replacing the cam sensor will not even fix the code 41, as it is quite common for the magnet to fall out of the housing bolted to the cam gear wich causes the cam sensor not to send any signal to the ecm and set a code 41, you can check to see if that is the problem by removing waterpump pulley and belt to gain better access to the cam sensor then remove the sensor and rotate engine by hand and use a mirror and light to see if the magnet is still there if its missing it requires the timing cover to be removed to replace usually you will replace the timing chain while your there, but there is many 3.8 liters driving around with a check engine light on and a code 41 stored in the ecm with no drivability problems like you describe.
 
  #15  
Old 08-02-05, 09:00 AM
shelby11
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Appreciate all your feedback, Thanks.

Gone to the parts store, will post update later tonight.
 
  #16  
Old 08-02-05, 04:35 PM
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"CODE 41

Trouble Code 41 indicates that the Camshaft Sensor is not functioning properly.

The ignition module uses the Cam Sensor signal for timing the spark firing. The ignition module also passes this signal to the ECM to enable sequential fuel injection. The inability to properly determine engine position from the Cam Sensor will generate Code 41.

The engine will continue to run if the signal is lost from the sensor, however it will not restart after shut down. If the Cam signal from the ignition module to the ECM is lost while running, the ECM will switch to the simultaneous fuel injection mode. The engine can be re-started but will continue to run in the simultaneous mode as long as the fault is present.

The conditions for setting this code are:

the engine is running, and
the Cam Sensor signal is not received by the ECM in the last 1 second interval



Typical causes for this code include:

1) Loose or misadjusted Cam Sensor
2) Defective Cam Sensor-to-ECM connections
3) Defective ECM

Cam sensor installation and adjustment procedures call for very exact tolerances. It is for this reason that it is recommended that the service manual be consulted while performing any adjustment or replacement of the Camshaft Sensor.
 
  #17  
Old 08-04-05, 02:51 PM
Comptech
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Bejay is correct, it is the magnet in the cam gear not the sensor. This will produce a longer cranling period, but the car will start.
 
  #18  
Old 08-04-05, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Comptech
This will produce a longer cranling period, but the car will start.
What a cranling period?
 
  #19  
Old 08-04-05, 04:07 PM
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Cranking

He means cranking I do that some times when I get in a hurry.
 
  #20  
Old 08-04-05, 04:11 PM
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Thats right! I think there are 3 of them, if you can look down in there you can see if one came off.
 
  #21  
Old 08-04-05, 04:13 PM
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Cranking Period...
Ha ha ha...
I was thinking the cranling was some dwell-type measurement of the cam sensor and magnets...lol
 
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