P1390 Timing Belt Skipped 1 Tooth or More

Reply

  #1  
Old 07-03-06, 05:51 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Florida
Posts: 358
P1390 Timing Belt Skipped 1 Tooth or More

98 Plymouth Breeze 2.0L OHC 4 Cyl 65K miles

Check Engine light came on. OBD2 code is P1390. Google says Timing Belt Skipped 1 Tooth Or More. What is going on? Is it time to replace the timing belt? This is an interference engine as far as I know. Manual mentions no timing belt replacement. People told me not to be concerned about the belt.

Thanks.
 
Sponsored Links
  #2  
Old 07-03-06, 06:02 PM
Member
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 338
I am trying to find t definition for that code then I can help. I am seeing 2 different definitions I need to figure out which one is correct. Yes I am seeing the crap all over about neons and this code.
 
  #3  
Old 07-03-06, 06:07 PM
Member
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 338
forget finding the code def, I will take your word on the out of synch.

The easiest ways to test is pull the timing cover and spin the crank till all the marks line up and see if one is off or not. You may have to spin the crank a few times.

If everything is mechanicaly timed up you need to look into replacing cam or crank sensors, I am not sure if your car has both I am assuming it does if the code is for out of synch.

The mechanical timing marks have to be dead on, if they are off you also need to replace the timing belt tensioner when doing the belt. Don't skimp out on the idler pulley for timing belt if there is one.

the way to test these sensor is with an oscilloscope by monitoring the signal pins.

Yes timing belts are VERY important routine maintenance on every engine that has a belt
 
  #4  
Old 07-03-06, 06:08 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Florida
Posts: 358
Thanks. By the way, this Breeze is a different one than I was getting help from you about "false ABS acivation". I have 2 breezes. Thanks.
 
  #5  
Old 07-03-06, 06:14 PM
Member
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 338
You may be able to get sneaky and just take the inspection cover off the cams and spin the crank to see of the cam gears are timed up if you have dohc you are missing the letter before OHV is it SOHV or DOHV. mainly do you have 1 or 2 cams. If you have SOHC then you need to pull the whole cover and check to see if they are timed and you might as well just change the belt while your there. You will also need a harmonic balancer puller if you don't have one.
 
  #6  
Old 07-03-06, 08:05 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Florida
Posts: 358
1) It is SOHC.

2) I just checked the service manual. It has both crankshaft position sensor and camshaft posititon sensor.

3) I will open up the covers and check if the timing marks are in alignment. If it is, I will take the car to a mechanic. I don't have an oscilloscope to check the sensors.

4) You said not to skimp on idler pulley. Do you mean that I replace it along with the belt?

5) If the timing marks are on, I don't need to replace belt tensioner? Or replace it any how?

6) How big a job is timing belt replacement. According to the service manual, it is a 4-page long process with lot of schematics. Can I give it a try? I can rent tools from Autozone (including the damper puller).

7) They recommend to replace water pump while the timing cover is off. How big a job is this?

Thanks.
 
  #7  
Old 07-03-06, 09:03 PM
Member
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,538
you can probably do it yourself while it would be a good idea to change the waterpump at the same time and it is often recomended to replace the tensioner but that is up to you with only 65k on the vehicle you can probably get by without it, but you should always check the bearing of the tensioner pulley for wear or noise when turned, if it has any play in the bearing or makes any noise would recomend you replace it.
generally the tensioner will go well over 100k miles before going bad and the next time the belt is replaced would probably change it for sure.
there is a couple of links to autozones website showing timingbelt and water pump replacement it is fairly easy to change once you remove the cam gear, tensioner and rear cover.
this is an interference engine and you should make sure that the crank is not on tdc at anytime you are removing the cam sproket or turning the cam you want the crank to be about 10 degrees before tdc or about 2 teeth from being lined up at the mark then once you have the cam mark lined up then you can line up the crank last and install the new belt.
http://autozone.com/servlet/UiBroker...3d801ecfc6.jsp
http://autozone.com/servlet/UiBroker...3d801ed0ee.jsp
 
  #8  
Old 07-03-06, 09:57 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Florida
Posts: 358
Thanks for the links and the tips. If you see this again, please explain to me what can go wrong if I line up TDC markers, and why you recommend 2 teeths off.
Thanks.
 
  #9  
Old 07-04-06, 12:01 AM
Member
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,538
usually the cam will turn on you removing the cam sproket or just when lining up the camshaft marks you will have to turn the cam by leaving the crank off of tdc by about 2 teeth there will be clearance for any valve to open on any cylinder without hitting the piston and preventing any damage to the valve such as bending a valve, leaving the crank about 10 degrees from tdc ensures that you will not cause any valve damage while turning the camshaft this is common procedure for any interference engine.
per example you go to check your belt to see if it is off you line up the crank marks and look at the camshaft marks if you find it has jumped a tooth or more before removing the belt position the crank about 2 teeth before tdc from being lined up, then remove the timing belt and change pump and tensioner if you are going to. and then align the cam marks then line up the crank marks last, just before installing the new timing belt.
 
  #10  
Old 07-04-06, 12:04 PM
davzack's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 304
Don't try this yourself! Look...I believe the above posters are well intentioned. And once you've done a couple of hundred timing belts over the years...sure, replacing one is as easy as changing oil. If you've never done one though it's a big complicated job. A job where if any number of things go wrong you can do extensive damage to your engine that will require hundreds if not thousands of dollars to fix.

I don't know what your DIY automotive experience is, but it's a safe bet that if you have to go to AZ to get any of the tools necessary to complete these repairs...then your experience isn't enough to justify the risks this job entails.

Besides, the camshaft/crankshaft alignment relearn procedure should be performed with a scan tool anytime you replace the timing belt or any of its related components...and you definitely aren't going to be able to rent a scan tool capabable of doing that from AZ.

Finally, you might try having that procedure performed before you even attack the timing belt repair. It entirely possible everything is okay but for some reason you "lost" this learned data. Read the Plymouth service manual data on this code here:

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g1...P1390Part1.jpg
http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g1...P1390Part2.jpg
 
  #11  
Old 07-04-06, 04:28 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Florida
Posts: 358
So far, I have removed the wheel, mud shield, accessory belt, idler pulley, harmonic balancer, engine mount, engine mounting bracket (on the belt cover side). But I am stick with the timing belt cover. For it to come out, the generator mounting bracket (not the pivoting one but the base where AC compressor is also mounted).

I am giving up. Removing the AC mounting bracket is too much for me. I know nothing about timing relearning. Anyhow, I am putting engine mount back so that I can get it towed.

While I was doing this, I found water leaking from the belt cover. Timing belt and water pump are going to be replaced.

Thank you all.
 
  #12  
Old 07-04-06, 05:00 PM
davzack's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 304
I think you made the correct choice...but kudos to you for attempting such a big job. Sounds as if you also found what may have caused your belt to slip...a leaking water pump (hence the coolant coming from underneath the timing belt cover.) By the way, this repair would run you around $395 at my shop...just to give you a reference figure.
 
  #13  
Old 07-04-06, 05:06 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Florida
Posts: 358
Originally Posted by davzack
I think you made the correct choice...but kudos to you for attempting such a big job. Sounds as if you also found what may have caused your belt to slip...a leaking water pump (hence the coolant coming from underneath the timing belt cover.) By the way, this repair would run you around $395 at my shop...just to give you a reference figure.
Thanks for the cost info. I am quoted 400+ from my mechanic. Thanks again.
 
  #14  
Old 07-04-06, 05:31 PM
nap's Avatar
nap
nap is offline
New Member
Join Date: May 2006
Location: north
Posts: 4,163
Originally Posted by puter
Thanks for the cost info. I am quoted 400+ from my mechanic. Thanks again.

Then drag it over to davezack's shop. He definately sounds like he knows what he is talking about and he is cheaper.
 
  #15  
Old 07-04-06, 07:15 PM
davzack's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 304
Lol...towing might even that proposition out. Hey, I just own the place...the guys that really know what they are doing are my mechanics. They have over 50+ years experience between them. My best guy rebuilt his first motor when he was twelve. I've learned more from them than any other source. Of course, I'm more of hands-on guy anyway...I can read it in a book 16 times and still not get it compared to doing it myself.

And hey, if he's around that price he's doing okay. You have to account for regional differences too. My shop rate is only $70/hr. I was just trying to get him to watch out for the guy who wanted to charge him $650+...that's waaay to much for that job...no matter where you are.
 
  #16  
Old 07-04-06, 07:23 PM
nap's Avatar
nap
nap is offline
New Member
Join Date: May 2006
Location: north
Posts: 4,163
Of course I was kidding but it is hard to find a good garage with folks you can depend on and trust to do both a good job and not to slip things past you.

You do seem to have it on the ball based upon your advice given on this forum. I suspect your garage is quite successful.
 
  #17  
Old 07-04-06, 07:47 PM
davzack's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 304
Thank you Nap. I am quite proud of the business I've built. I don't do any advertising except by word of mouth and I stay pretty darn busy. I attribute it to exactly what you just mentioned. We are dependable, honest, and we do a good job.

I used to work at large corporate owned stores and the lack of ethical standards at these large corporations just amazed me. Corporations these days are almost completely synonymous with unethical business practices. I was thoroughly disgusted and ashamed to even be associated with them. I wanted a place that I could be proud of...I just try to pretend my mom is standing behind me every time I'm dealing with a customer and that I'm trying to earn mom's stamp of approval on every customer interaction/transaction. It's worked great so far!

You know, I think the biggest thing that affected me was that I used to be on the other side of the counter and I can remember vividly what it was like. I wasn't always a mechanic/shop owner. I hated feeling like that...
 
  #18  
Old 07-04-06, 09:53 PM
Member
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 338
I was looking over the leaving the crank off by 2 teeth.

Hmm I have heard of being one tooth off on the cam before tensioning the belt, so the slack pulls it back, but never having the crank off 2, that sounds a lot do you crank this motor over a few times by hand before attempting to start it to make sure it is aligned up
 
  #19  
Old 07-05-06, 08:51 AM
Member
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,538
while it is a good idea to crank the engine over by hand to double check the marks before putting it back together, you line up all the marks like you would normally you do not leave it off 2 teeth when you install the belt, but if you are at tdc and are messing with the cam or cams and the belt is off you run the risk of damaging a valve even if the belt is just being changed as maintence.
 
  #20  
Old 07-06-06, 02:42 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Florida
Posts: 358
I took the car to a garage and left it there yesterday. They said they would work on the car today, but they have not even started, and are not sure if they can start tomorrow. The car needs to be driven this Saturday. I cannot wait any longer.

I called a dealer. They quoted $530 for the timing belt and water pump to be completed by Saturday.

Has anyone worked on the engine? Does anyone know how to remove the bracket (both alternator and AC compressor are mounted to this)? That's where I got stuck. If anyone can help, please let me know. Thanks.
 
  #21  
Old 07-06-06, 02:47 PM
Member
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 338
If you can't figure out how to get that bracket off I think you better leave this to some one with a bit more experience, you could easily risk ruining the motor.
 
  #22  
Old 07-06-06, 03:02 PM
Member
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,538
usually you can unbolt the a/c compressor and move it out of the way do not disconnect the lines, you can also remove alternater the same way just make sure the battery has been disconnected, the mounting bracket should come off after removing a few bolts its been awhile since ive done one on this engine or I might be of some more help.
as per you not being able to do it there really isnt much to actually changing the timing belt on a single cam engine you shouldnt have any problem if you can get it tore down to where you can change the belt and pump.
if you had a dohc or even worse v6 dohc then they get alot harder and usually require special tools to lock the cams together.
 
Reply

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Display Modes
'