do garages have different obd II readers?

Reply

  #1  
Old 07-20-06, 10:24 AM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 57
do garages have different obd II readers?

I have a 2000 dakota 4.7 liter v8, with 91k miles. my check engine light came on the other day, and I used my obd 2 reader to scan the code. Code came back with P0204 - injector circuit malfunction - cylinder 4. I brought it a garage, and they told me there was a 79$ diagnostic charge to scan the computer and retrieve the code. I told them I already had the code, and gave it to them. They called me back later and asked me what I wanted them to do (ie, change the cylinder, the circuit, the computer, etc). I didn't know. He then told me that they needed to do their own scan, and charge me the 79.00 charge. My question is whether or not garages have scanners that will give them more information than the consumer versions you can buy at automotive parts stores, or is this garage trying to generate some extra revenue for themselves at my expense?

oh, the scanner I have is a KAL Equip, global [email protected] code scanner, model #9040.
 
Sponsored Links
  #2  
Old 07-20-06, 10:25 AM
Banned. Rule And/Or Policy Violation
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 263
I always double check the code when I get people like you (to be certain), But I never hassle or charge extra.

they are smarting off with you, go to a different garage. you should have replied your the mechanics, fix it, all I did was pull the code. then you say you know what I will just come pick it up and not bring to places with ***** (inappropriate language deleted).

There scanners allow them to view the readings of each sensor to, while the vehicle is running, and perform some tests(none applicable to your case).

Any good shop won't charge for people who pull their own codes(thats how you keep customers) these guys don't care, the customers who pull their own codes need to be treated different to keep them coming back. Where I worked if people did that, and we needed to use our scanner to monitor stuff we didn't charge them for it. We were kind to our customers. The scanners bring in huge profits and pay themselves off quickly, they are just being rude and trying to milk you for every cent they can. Now you have them P.O.'ed because they know you were trying to save the fee, thats why you got the rude phone call. Believe me you may not known it was rude but from shop etiquette that was very rude.
 

Last edited by davzack; 07-20-06 at 07:25 PM.
  #3  
Old 07-20-06, 10:39 AM
Banned. Rule And/Or Policy Violation
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 263
Since you are misfiring on cylinder 4.

Check for spark by pulling wire off and then running engine to see if it sparks

change that spark plug. replace it
With that motor I think you have short ignition wires. replace those to.

See if that helps your problem.

At some point a fuel injection cleaning service is always a good way to go to with misfires.

Next steps would be to use a test light or noid light and make sure the injector is getting a pulse.

Then next would be taking injector out and getting it cleaned or replacing it.

I don't recall using a computer any farther than you have in the steps above. Maybe you need to spell it out to these guys since they aren't good mechanics or just can't think for themselves becaused they haven't evolved from being monkeys. It really disgusts me they called you and asked that. That is like a big F-U for not paying the scanner fee they don't deserve your money take your business else where. As you can tell it really really disgusts me that shops that act like this.
 
  #4  
Old 07-20-06, 01:10 PM
Member
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,538
most shops scanners are alot better and will perform tests alot of cheaper models will not. as per the code it gives them a place to start diagnosing the problem but any shop is going to charge to diagnose while they may use their scanner for some of it they will probably use other tools such as noid light probably an ohm meter to test wiring etc if you wanted to gamble and replace the injector you might get lucky and it fix the problem or it could be a bad wire or computer causing an injector circuit problem think what the shop was trying to tell you is that there is more to diagnosing alot of problems than getting the code out of the computer.
 
  #5  
Old 07-20-06, 01:27 PM
Banned. Rule And/Or Policy Violation
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 263
Originally Posted by bejay
the shop was trying to tell you is that there is more to diagnosing alot of problems than getting the code out of the computer.

They would have said we need to use other equipment to correctly diagnose this that has a fee with it.

Not well what do you want us to do. they were pretty much throwing it back in his face because they weren't getting their free $70 fee.
 
  #6  
Old 07-20-06, 01:40 PM
Member
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,538
not really no shop is going to waste five minutes on a vehicle for nothing if the customer said change the injector im sure the shop would gladly do it, as per diagnosing it is usually charged by the hour some places have a flat fee that they charge for most diagnose vehicles that takes less than an hour and that usually includes whatever equipment is needed alot of times it is alot more than a scanner.
unfortuanatly their is alot of service writers out there that probably dont even know how to check the oil level in their own car and are really clueless to what is going on in the shop and he may think the mechanic will just use a scanner.
 
  #7  
Old 07-20-06, 03:41 PM
Banned. Rule And/Or Policy Violation
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 263
Last time I checked problem diagnosis was not on board unless you don't get the work done. The boards say scanner fee's straight up. not diagnosis. I have yet to see a receipt from a shop that said diagnosis fee $75. He will find an honest shop thats not hunting to rape him with such a simple problem. At most they will monitor the voltage of the injector to check for the pintle. But there is other things that can be done.

All receipts I have say here is the problem stated. Next such and such part was found defective. Part cost and labor to replace book time. If you don't get work done by them then they charge diagnosis fee and send you on your way. These guys don't care for his business unless he pays the scanner fee.

If anything is used on the vehicle it will be an oscilloscope. not a scanner. But that is not needed at this point. He asking they use their mechanical skills to fix the problem, he has already given them a huge tip cyl 4. The mechanics(if competent) should be able to go from there very quickly with out any scanners.

Plus at near $100 an hour they aren't hurting to let one guys scanner fee go. They can easily charge less since he pulled the code.

So after they charge the $75 scanner fee should they also charge labor on the other non scanner procedures to finishing figuring out what is wrong.

Go to another shop you have an autoshop 101 problem here. No high tech equipment is needed after you have the code.

Plus an injector is $60 for this vehicle, add in a $2 spark plug(even have overlapping labor with changing spark plug for changing ingnition coil)I am starting to think this is coil on plug with the 4.7). We still haven't covered the scanner fee. Even if he has to put a coil pack on $25. we just covered the scanner fee. so he could say just throw those parts at it. instead of using a scanner.

He still won't be as indebt as paying a scanner fee and then paying parts and labor to put them in.

Plus its common knowledge those motors wear out spark plugs fairly quick
Go some where else these guys would charge $75 to diagnose a dirty air filter. then charge you labor on top of that to replace it.
 

Last edited by snuckers99; 07-20-06 at 04:12 PM.
  #8  
Old 07-20-06, 07:51 PM
davzack's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 304
Joatmon,

First, I do suggest you take your car elsewhere based on the unprofessional behavior you have encountered. However, I would like to take the opportunity to explain the shops point of view. You have not had your vehicle's problem diagnosed yet. You simply pulled the diagnostic trouble code. This is a starting point...it does not indicate that the injector itself is malfunctioning.

At this point, the manufacturer's procedures for diagnosing this code should be performed. The possible causes for this code are an open/high resistance in the ASD relay output circuit, fuel injector malfunction, wiring harness intermittent problem, fuel injector #4 driver circuit open, fuel injector #4 driver circuit shorted ot ground, or a malfunctioning powertrain control module. No one's scan tool till tell you which one it is...not even Dodge's.

I think what happened is that when the shop told you they needed to charge you $79 to pull the code, they were in fact telling you that they were going to charge you $79 to diagnose the problem. When you refused, they called and were asking you to make the diagnosis because as you can see, there's several possible causes for that code. It was unprofessional and they have probably lost your business, but such is life and business.

Any repair that you or anyone else makes at this point is a guess until your problem is fully diagnosed. I think it's better to spend $79 at this point to narrow down the cause as opposed to throwing parts at the problem since some of these guesses (parts) can be fairly expensive.

I think the main reason this problem has come about is due to auto parts stores making Check Engine Light code pulling available and free. Too many consumers believe that the code reader will tell them exactly what is wrong...but a diagnostic trouble code NEVER tells you that. Having the code pulled is simply a starting point on the diagnostic road.

What's even worse is when the auto parts store makes a diagnosis based on the code, and then sells you the part. I'm surprised that they didn't sell you an injector for that matter. Could a new injector solve your problem...sure. It could just as easily be a waste of money. I'm all for the DIY'er but there are some things better left to professionals with the right tools and knowledge. If you feel comfortable taking a X dollar guess by replacing the injector...then by all means go ahead. In some cases that sort of guess might actually save you money...but in others it will cost you.

I'll give you an example...today I had a vehicle come in with several codes stored in the computer. If I had run through the diagnostic charts for those particular codes, I easily would have run the customer's bill up to a couple of hundred dollars in diagnostics. The parts in question were $19 and $22 respectively. It was much more cost effective in this particular case to simply replace the parts as opposed to charging $70 an hour for diagnostic labor. Even if the parts had not have worked (they did by the way), it would have eliminated a great portion of the diagnostic labor that would have been left to perform.

You'll just have to weight whether X dollars for an injector is cheaper than X dollars for a thorough diagnosis of your problem.
 
  #9  
Old 07-23-06, 09:19 AM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 57
thanks so much for all of the feedback,information, and advice. unfortunately I've already paid these guys for the scan, however they have not replaced the injector yet, as it was a dealer part and they couldn't get it in time. They are supposed to call me when it does come in, and I can then make an appointment for the repair. What would you recommend for my next course of action? Something else I did not mention, that may be relevent, this garage is supposed to be AAA approved. I had thought of filing a complaint through them. Should I cut my losses and not do any business with these guys again? Should I speak with the facilities manager and give him the chance to make things right - perhaps deduct the scan fee from the cost of replacing the injector? Should I consider the $79 exactly what I got - a diagnosis for a bad injector, and replace the injector myself? I've been doing some research on-line and many websites suggest having a professional cleaning of all my injectors, which I have never had done on this vehicle? How much to these cleanings usually cost, and is it worth it? Could it even correct my current problem with the injector in cylinder 4? sorry for the barrage of additional questions.
 
  #10  
Old 07-23-06, 09:33 AM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 57
Davzack -
Thank you for your input. I understand now that the codes only give a general idea of the problem, however when you go to a garage, unless you're doing regular maintenance, such as an oil change, ANY job is going to require some time spent diagnosing the problem in the first place. "geez I hear a squealing noise every time I hit the brake pedal" yea I know it's probably a brake problem, but someone still needs to put the car up on a lift, take the tires off and find out if it's a caliper problem, pad/show problem, drum/rotor problem. I've never seen a "scan/diagnosis" line item on a receipt for a brake job before. That being said, if I only brought my truck in for diagnosis, YES I fully expect and WANT to pay the shop for their time, expertise, and assistance in pin-pointing the problem. But, I brought the truck in to correct the problem, not just pinpoint it.

As for pulling the code, I have my own scanner. I did not go to a parts store and get a free scan.
 
  #11  
Old 07-23-06, 01:10 PM
Member
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,538
you keep saying scan fee, but in your original post you say the shop wants to charge you a 79$ diagnostic charge.
if you are not happy with the work you got done there you should probably try finding a shop that you might be happy with and that you trust if thats possible.
some shops do offer a free brake inspections hoping you will do any repairs needed some will charge a small fee to inspect the brakes and most all will on certain vehicles that may require axle removal to inspect the brakes dont see how that is relevent to your problem but I would expect the receipt to say brake inspection.
 
  #12  
Old 07-23-06, 10:50 PM
rav12's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: California
Posts: 668
I'm curious too regarding what the scan tools at the garages can do that consumer types ones cannot. One thing I can see is that the consumer type ones are simply code readers whereas the ones in the garage can also read real-time parameters like rpm etc. Leaving that aside can they do anything else.

I'm been asked to pay $100 for scan code retrival by a garage myself. At the time I did not have have a code reader so I politely declined, went and purchased one (for less cost) and then informed the garage about the code I got and whether they could do the work - they were not pleased. Never heard back from them. As the problem was related to the transmission they were not even into tranny repair although they initially claimed so - turns out they just referred people to another transmission shop. This place was highly rated by the AAA. Following this and another bad experience at another transmission place I ended up rebuilding it at home. That transmission shop was also well rated by the AAA. The AAA ratings are based on customer feedback - if you know little about cars you take it in and they fix it and you feel you got value for money then they get a good rating. If you know more about cars than most people the ratings may not make sense especially with your own experience....

And also that was a good example of the code not matching with the real problem - code was a shift solenoid performance code - real problem was a broken band in the tranny. Had to do my own detailed diagnostics with the hydralics to figure out the problem.
 
  #13  
Old 07-24-06, 07:54 AM
Banned. Rule And/Or Policy Violation
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 263
AAA rating means something next to nothing, all it really means is they went the extra effort to fill out a few more papers and probably pay a fee to get the AAA cert. Its not something deemed bad enough to file a complaint. It has more to do with ethical bahavior and how much they value their customers.
 
  #14  
Old 07-24-06, 11:02 AM
rav12's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: California
Posts: 668
As I understand it when a garage wants a AAA rating they have to apply for it and then the AAA speaks to a certain number of customers to verify their experience and they then get the rating from that. I do not believe AAA themselves audit the facility by taking in a car for repair and looking at how it was done, the customer service etc. And just to add regarding the original posting - my opinion is that the service should have been declined at the beginning if it were felt that this was unreasonable - it is harder to complain now once the money has been paid and the work is in progress.

I personally have no problem with a small charge for pulling a code but all charges should be in line with the effort required for doing the work.
 
  #15  
Old 08-22-06, 04:37 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 57
update on the injector problem

thought I would give everyone an update. The shop never called me to let me know the injector was in. I ordered and with the help of a friend replaced the injector ourselves. WARNING: before tackling this type of repair, make sure you can get, and have an o-ring kit handy. I was able to replace the injector without having to remove the entire fuel rail. I only had to take off the one side. However, when I got it back together the other 3 injectors on that side, leaked around the o-rings. Napa, and advanced auto couldn't even find them in the system, and NAPA couldn't even match it up. I called the dealer and they said they weren't available either. They suggested purchasing all new injectors - at 80 bucks a pop! (Remember this is a v-8) I asked to speak with the service department, to see how they would handle the situation. They would replace the entire fuel rail - 300+ bucks! I was ready to trade in the truck and get something new, anything, other than another chrysler product.
Finally after a day of searching the internet I found horsepower phreaks inc out of oregon - my saviors. O-rings for sale 2.50 per ring! A week later they arrived in the mail, and I was back in business. The truck ran great, for a little while. The other day I was driving down the highway and the check engine light came back on again. Same code, except this time, all but cylinder 1, and 7 reported a fuel injector circuit malfunction. Any ideas on what else I could/should look at as the culprit?
 
  #16  
Old 08-22-06, 05:58 PM
Member
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: los angeles
Posts: 22
Post Garage Scanners

ok guys im going to set the record straight here , yes we do have different scanners , what you have is what we call a generic scanner that can only pull codes and clear the check engine light , what we use are called enhanced scanners cost is between 2500.00 - 5000.00 u.s. dollars , we have live data , can scope all cyls , do monitor test to verify our repairs , reprogram ecms, there are many things that you cant do , NOW as far as them asking you want you want to do , i think he was correct , because you pulled the code , so then tell us do u want to replace the inj, could it be the ecm, is there an open ckt , is the ecm giving ground to that ckt, you see its not that easy , the ecm can only direct u to the general area of the problem , but a good diag still has to be done to find the exact culprit of the problem , there are many times when well get a code and its not the area thats causing the problem , so we need to charge a diag fee to properly diag the car and cover our butts.
 
Reply

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Display Modes
'