No spark, no gas, need help....

Reply

  #1  
Old 06-05-07, 05:17 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 15
No spark, no gas, need help....

I have a 1991 Dodge caravan 4 cyl. 2.5. Total stop. No warning! Such as an engine missing or flooding or etc... No spark and fuel pump does not operate. Tried new coil, pickup assembly, distributor veins are excellent, new asd relay, and put gas down the throttle. Will not spit. Turns over perfect. No trouble codes. I put a test light in where the ASD inserts. The light lights in one slot when key is off; then lights in two slots when key is on. Therefore, getting power to the ASD. What is there left to do??? If it would be the computer, then how can I be sure that it is the computer?? Very hard to find a computer and very expensive. Hope I can get some answers. Thanks
 
Sponsored Links
  #2  
Old 06-06-07, 03:40 AM
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Wilmington
Posts: 4,219
Unusual for everything to stop working but still crank. Check fuse blocks for main components. Lights radio, etc., work??
 
  #3  
Old 06-06-07, 05:38 AM
HotxxxxxxxOKC's Avatar
Banned. Rule And/Or Policy Violation
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 8,044
I agree with Just Bill. Check for power at the fuse block. If you have no power to the fuel pump at the fuse block, you probably have an ignition problem. It's rare for a computer too fail, but that is a possibility as well.

You should have 12vDC at fuel pump fuse when key is in the "run/on" position.
 
  #4  
Old 06-06-07, 07:37 AM
New guy's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 435
Check your timing belt.
 
  #5  
Old 06-06-07, 01:05 PM
Member
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,538
first make sure the dist rotor is turning while cranking the engine over if its not its probably timing belt problem.
would check for power at the ignition coil with the engine cranking if you have no power would go to the asd relay wich should have 4 terminals as youve already found 2 powers a key on and full time battery power one wire will go to the coil and several other components, the other is grounded by the computer, ground this one manually with a jumper and then check for power at the coil as it now should have power with the key on, now see if vehicle starts or atleast has spark.
if no spark would try another pickup assembly, along with ohming the wires from pickup to computer to confirm they are in good condition would also check powers and grounds at the computer before condeming it, you might also unplug the vehicle speed senor as on some chryslers the vehicle speed sensor and pickup use the same refrence voltage source and the speed sensor could short out and cause a no crank signal condition from the pickup
 
  #6  
Old 06-06-07, 06:39 PM
Member
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Jersey
Posts: 526
An easy test is unscrew your oil fill cap look inside while someone else cranks the engine and see if the rockers are moving. They should be moving.....if not you have a bad timming belt or chain.
 
  #7  
Old 06-07-07, 04:52 AM
the_tow_guy's Avatar
Group Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: SW Fla USA
Posts: 11,571
While a timing belt is possible, I think the combination of no spark AND no fuel pump running would make Bill & OKC's direction more likely.

Don't leave us hanging when you figure it out; we hate that.
 
  #8  
Old 06-07-07, 03:53 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 15
Still no spark, no gas...

I appreciate all the information that everyone gave. Today, As recommended I checked the rotor while cranking the engine and the rotor is not turning. I then took out the inspection hole plug in the timing belt cover and the camshaft gear does not turn when I crank the engine. Then, removed the upper timing belt cover. Belt is tight and in perfect condition. Heres the deal. When cranking the engine over the timing belt, camshaft gear, crankshaft gear, and the 3rd gear; do not spin. I can see all of them by looking down into the bottom half of the timing belt cover. Now what??? Your answers to this puzzle would be appreciated again.
 
  #9  
Old 06-07-07, 04:31 PM
HotxxxxxxxOKC's Avatar
Banned. Rule And/Or Policy Violation
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 8,044
It now does sound like a failed engine controller. If you have checked/replaced your ignition coil and distributor, wiring, etc, it's the only thing left.

The fuel pump, and ignition all go through the ECM.
 
  #10  
Old 06-07-07, 05:59 PM
the_tow_guy's Avatar
Group Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: SW Fla USA
Posts: 11,571
Maybe I'm missing something because I just got back from a long haul and starting vacation tomorrow, but are you saying when you turn the key the engine is cranking but nothing visible is moving??? Or is it not turning over at all???
 
  #11  
Old 06-07-07, 06:54 PM
Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 759
If belts not moving, & sprockets aren't turning, but the pistons are going up & down while cranking over, then I'd be looking at the possibility of the keyway broke off on the crankshaft sprocket where it all starts.
 
  #12  
Old 06-07-07, 06:59 PM
HotxxxxxxxOKC's Avatar
Banned. Rule And/Or Policy Violation
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 8,044
The poster says his fuel pump does not operate and no spark. You could have a broken sprocket and still have a operable pump and spark.
 
  #13  
Old 06-07-07, 07:27 PM
Member
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Floriduhhhhh Us of A
Posts: 611
Engine "turns over" but Cam and distributor not turning???.........T/belt is still "tight"?????..............How much ya wanna bet the cogs on the lower part of the belt are AWOL?????........Pull the lower part of the cover and see what falls out
 
  #14  
Old 06-07-07, 07:30 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 15
Still no spark, no gas...

Yes, the engine turns over perfectly. The pistons are going up and down normally. The 3 gears under the timing gear cover do not move at all when you turn the engine over. The timing belt is tight and in perfect condition. The broken keyway really sounds like a possibility. I called a local repair shop and I don't know if they know that much; but was told the problem is caused by a cracked crankshaft or cracked flywheel. I just can not believe that would be it. Because there was no noises or problems of any kind before the car quit running. The repair shop also said if for any reason the timing belt or gears are not operating; then the asd will shut down the fuel pump and spark. Because it will not be getting the signal it needs. Also, the sprockets are not broken. They are just not turning when I turn the engine over. If it's a broken keyway what does that entail. Lots of expense and work???
 
  #15  
Old 06-07-07, 07:35 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 15
Still no spark, no gas...

I understand what you are saying about the timing belt could be stripped under the drive gear. But, the fact remains that the drive gear and the 2 other gears do not spin when I turn the engine over.
 
  #16  
Old 06-08-07, 02:46 AM
Member
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,538
usually a timing belt will strip its teeth off at the crank gear so if you do not have both the upper and lower covers off you really cant see the crank sprocket all you can really see with the upper cover off is cam and balance shaft wich drives the distributer and the tensioner pulley.
if your crank gear wasnt turning neither would the crank pulley or alternater or ps belts as its bolted to the crank sprocket and it could be a bad keyway or broken crankshaft either way would expect some damage to the crankshaft if it is not turning, wether it be a worn out keyway or broken crank.
how exactly did you verify the pistons or moving up and down and did you check that on all cylinders per example if number 1 isnt moving and number 4 is that pretty much tells you the crank is broke.
 
  #17  
Old 06-08-07, 04:14 AM
Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 759
You'll have to get that lower cover off & get a look directly at the crankshaft as the engine is turning over, to see if it is actually turning or not. If it is, I'd bet money on the keyway or crank sprocket, or both. If the keyway has sheared off, clean the groove & insert a new one & change sprocket. Be sure to dump your oil & hopefully the remains will come out when drained, but assuming your oil pan has a magnet inside, it may not come out, and may never cause a problem, but, For all the extra time it takes, I'd drop the pan & clean it out before adding new oil & firing it up. If groove in crank is damaged, a small file may be all you need to clean it up, add new keyway & sprocket. Be sure to inspect all other sprockets etc, before you put it back together, as well as belt. Better to be sure now, than have to pull it all apart again. Keep us informed on your progress.
 
  #18  
Old 06-08-07, 04:57 AM
New guy's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 435
Take the lower cover off, you will find that the timing belt's cogs right under the crank sprocket are gone, the crank is turning over on the "flat" part of the belt. Typical problem when the belt broke on the 2.2 2.5 Chry/Dodge.
 
  #19  
Old 06-08-07, 07:01 AM
shacko's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Baltimore County Maryland
Posts: 2,138
Dodge prob.

I hate to give a negative, but I had a similar prob. with a older Chevy, same symptoms; it turned out the camshaft had broken in half. Hope I'm wrong. Lots of luck.
 
  #20  
Old 06-08-07, 06:20 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 15
Thumbs up Found problem...

Yes, what many of you have said is the problem. Finally got the lower half of the timing cover off and yes the cogs are gone and the belt is smooth at that spot. Also, as some of you stated, I now know that you can NOT see the crank sprocket until you remove the bottom half of the timing belt cover. We had thought we seen both of the gears; but, we did not until we removed the cover. I checked to see if all the pistons were moving by of course pulling the plugs and then putting a straw down the cyl. and having someone turning it over to see if it moves up and down. All of the very accurate help I have been told has been very much appreicated.
Now, to replace the timing belt I have to take the engine mount off and support the engine. Where can I put the jack to do that??? Also, will the timing now be off and have to be redone. Is there any chance that the valve could be damaged when the timing belt gave out?????
 
  #21  
Old 06-08-07, 06:34 PM
New guy's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 435
Just put the floor jack under the engine oil pan with a piece of wood in between.

Yes, you will have to set it up to TDC.

No, the pistons are not hitting any valves, it's "free running" engine.

One note of caution, when setting the timing belt, make sure the Distributer is ligned up correctly, if not you may experience a rough running at idle and or stalling when a/c is on.
 
  #22  
Old 06-08-07, 06:54 PM
Member
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,538
set engine on 0 degrees tdc at the hole on the top of transmission bell housing, align cam marks and position intermediate shaft mark to where it facing the dot on the crank sprocket, install the belt and try to keep all excess play on the tensioner side as any play between the other sprockets will move your sprockets out of time when you tighten the belt.
after tightening the timing belt rotate the engine over by hand after 2 complete reveolutions of the crank should bring all your marks back to the original position so you can recheck and make sure its in time before putting the covers back on.
its always a good idea to check the ignition timing when done but if the distributer hasnt never been moved it will probably be right on, if you install it right.
might copy and paste autozones link below to help you if you dont have a manual.
http://www.autozone.com/az/cds/en_us/0900823d/80/10/c0/1c/0900823d8010c01c/repairInfoPages.htm
 
  #23  
Old 06-08-07, 06:58 PM
Member
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,538
one other thing that may help you align the cam sprocket is the rubber tip part of the valvecover endseal that sticks out of the top of the valvecover should be aligned with the hole at the cam sprocket, its easier to use that then the arrows at the sides.
 
  #24  
Old 06-09-07, 04:40 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 15
Working on getting the car back together. Timing can be a little difficult when doing it for the first time. Got most of it done. But On the cam sprocket, there is a little triangle / arrow and there is also a long gated hole off to the side. Which one of these do I line up with the rubber tip part of the valvecover endseal that is sticking up???
 
  #25  
Old 06-10-07, 11:31 AM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 15
Question

How hard is it be to turn the cam sprocket (to alien the timing marks) by hand when the spark plugs have been removed? Two of us have tried wearing heavy gloves and we could only move it less than 1/4". Is it possible something is now froze or bent up in the cam area? Therefore the crank shaft sprocket would burn the cogs off because the timing belt would not be able to turn the cam sprocket???? Or is this sprocket always this hard to turn??? I don't want to turn the key on with the new belt in until I hear back about this.
Bottom line, should I be able to turn the cam sprocket with my hands??????

Is it ok to use the air impact wrench and adjust the air regulator to 85 ft lbs to tighten the cranckshaft sprocket bolt to 85 ft lbs?.

If I can ever get the cam sprocket to move then On the cam sprocket, there is a little triangle / arrow and there is also a long gated hole off to the side. Which one of these do I line up with the rubber tip part of the valvecover endseal that is sticking up???
 
  #26  
Old 06-10-07, 02:10 PM
New guy's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 435
You should be able to turn the cam by one hand with sparkplugs installed, try to remove all of sparkplugs and see if you can turn it freely, there's some restriction when the cam is on the lobes but it's stills turns easily and free, if you need someone turns the cam with you, there's something wrong, remove the valve cover and check for seized bearing caps.

Yes, it's OK to use impact wrench to tights up the crank's bolt.

I believe the alongated hole should be on the top and there are also two lines on the side of the cam sprocket which also has to be ligned up/parallel to the side of the cylinder head.

I would not try to crank the engine with the timing belt in place without remove the valve cover and inspect the cam bearing caps. Did you running out of engine oil by chance?. How is you oil level?.
 
  #27  
Old 06-10-07, 03:16 PM
Banned. Rule And/Or Policy Violation
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 8,629
There is an "auto shutdown relay" mounted on the fender of these Dodges under the hood by/above (perhaps) the battery - and wiring diagrams show that if this relay shuts down and kills the power to a certain color coded wire, this wire may go 5 places - and two of these is: one is to the electric fuel pump and one is to the ignition coil. The colored wire may be green with a black stripe. It says in aftermarket car manual that a cause of the auto shutdown relay tripping out is if it does not detect proper distributor signal and one or two posible other reasons.
 
  #28  
Old 06-10-07, 04:02 PM
Member
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: va
Posts: 61
are you using a wrench to try turning the cam or trying to grab the pulley with your hands and turn it. if using your hands, you probably will not be able to turn it enough to compress the valve springs. with a long handled wrench or ratchet on the cam bolt, you should be able to turn it with some resistance.
 
  #29  
Old 06-10-07, 04:56 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 15
Never did run low on oil. Very careful about that. I did remove all the spark plugs before the two of us tried to turn the cam sprocket by HAND by grabing the sprocket. Even with the two of us we Could only turn it less than 1/4 inch. I have not tried to turn it with a wrench on the sprocket bolt.
 
  #30  
Old 06-10-07, 08:19 PM
Member
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,538
it should be difficult to turn, try a wrench removing the spark plugs does nothing for turning the cam but will allow you to turn the crank over easier your probably just feeling the valve spring pressure as mentioned by towman.
dont beleive you should of even had to remove the main crank bolt but It can probably handle most 1/2 inch drive impacts do not use an impact to tighten the crank pully bolts as they would break off easily
the hole should go at the top and align with the valve cover end seal gasket and theres usually 2 arrows that would be pointing towards the sides
once the belt is on you should always use the crank bolt to turn the engine over with.
 
Reply

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Display Modes