Can you find me wiring diagram?

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  #1  
Old 04-13-08, 01:49 PM
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Can you find me wiring diagram?

Last night I diagnosed neighbor's 91 Dodge Spirit with standard 2.5L engine, to have no juice at the negative terminal of the coil, upon cranking.

I determined it is not fault of the coil. I know that because the jack containing the positive and negative to the coil was actually disconnected from the coil. When I had him turn on the key to "on", the one terminal became 12+ volts (the positive terminal I'd imagine).

When I had him try to "start" (with jack still disconnected from coil, for testing purposes, no juice came through the negative terminal.

So we went over and did the same test to my identical car, and mine DOES get juice to the negative terminal when trying to start!

So the problem may be that it needs a new Hall effect pickup coil. Then again maybe not. The wiring is tied in with the SBEC (single board engine controller), unfortunately.

I was going to buy a new Hall effect pickup for my neighbor today, but we both decided agaisnt it after I bought a Haynes manual for him there, and read the appropriate section about the pickup coil and looked up the wiring, and read that the home mechanic is not able to perform the necessary diagnostic tests to confirm if the Hall effect pickup is bad. The parts store wants about $42 for the pickup.

And based on the fact that the wiring diagrams do not even have a section that shows the coil AND distributor (it just shows the coil and SBEC and some other stuff) and how it ties into the SBEC. I went back in the store and complained to one of the guys on duty how crazy that the Haynes manual does not even have the complete primary and secondary wiring diagram to trace, on some page! I told him that if one's car breaks down on the highway, you want to be able to quickly reference the problem in a manual. For example, I told him that the word "coil" is not even listed in the large index!! You have to pause and think what else to look up to find "coil" (it is under the word ignition). Nonsense like that.

I called my neighbor up and said I am not going to be responsible and owe him $40 for the Hall pickup if that is not it. And I told him it is like Russian roulette, that it may be, and it may not be. That the problem of the car suddenly without warning just shutting off could be in the wiring or the SBEC or ?. I said that down at the library they have the better Mitchell's manuals on reference (can't take them home) and I said today I am not about to go down there and sit and read, as I have other things to do. (I've done it for MY cars tho and have run photo copies in the past)

He MAY try to get one from the junkyard (if they'll just sell the Hall out of the distributor) and see.

Does any one here have a membership to Alldata or some other site where you can bring up for me the entire schematic for that car regarding the ignition/start circuit?

Thanks, if you even try. I went over there and it is a maze of sites to click into and it said about logging in and I'm not registered.
 
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Old 04-13-08, 04:46 PM
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Can't help with the schematic at this point, but will tell you that in the late 80's, early 90's, while working for Chrysler,the Chrysler/Dodge/Plymouth 2.2 & 2.5 were quite often quitting and breaking down on the side of the road without warning. Wait a short amount of time & it would re-fire, most times, usually about the time the towtruck driver was unloading it, or mechanic was checking to see what you were talking about & it would start right up. Pick-up plate under distributor cap was the culprit most of the time. Not 100% sure what your symptoms were/are, but thought I'd throw that in just in case.
 
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Old 04-13-08, 06:00 PM
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local library/chilton manual. will have any wiring diagram pertinant. cost - zilch.
 
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Old 04-13-08, 07:26 PM
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- coil should get a Pulsing Ground from SBEC. If I remember correctly it is a Black w/yellow tracer. The 12 volts comes from the ASD relay, and feeds Coil, Injectors and Fuel pump. This wire should be Dk Green, possibly with a black tracer.

The hard part to diagnose is the fact that normally, this ASD relay is triggered by the SBEC, only after 1 full second of cranking.
 
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Old 04-14-08, 08:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike.B View Post
Can't help with the schematic at this point, but will tell you that in the late 80's, early 90's, while working for Chrysler,the Chrysler/Dodge/Plymouth 2.2 & 2.5 were quite often quitting and breaking down on the side of the road without warning. Wait a short amount of time & it would re-fire, most times, usually about the time the towtruck driver was unloading it, or mechanic was checking to see what you were talking about & it would start right up. Pick-up plate under distributor cap was the culprit most of the time. Not 100% sure what your symptoms were/are, but thought I'd throw that in just in case.
Thanks. That is just what it is doing! It is called the Hall-effect pickup under the distributor cap. That is what sends the dwell signals. I get no power to the negative connection at the coil when this happens. Caught it once for my neighbor in the act, long enough to discover no juice at the negative. But did not know if that meant the pickup was bad or possibly worse; the SBEC. They want about $40 for that part, new. Maybe I should just call junk yard to see, if we are going to maybe take a chance on this thing.
 
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Old 04-14-08, 08:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Unclediezel View Post
- coil should get a Pulsing Ground from SBEC. If I remember correctly it is a Black w/yellow tracer. The 12 volts comes from the ASD relay, and feeds Coil, Injectors and Fuel pump. This wire should be Dk Green, possibly with a black tracer.

The hard part to diagnose is the fact that normally, this ASD relay is triggered by the SBEC, only after 1 full second of cranking.
I am running out to my car right now to see which wire is the one that stays hot from the battery, on both are cars, when you turn the key to "on". It is the other one, the negative side, that is shutting off on the neighbors and that one is colored - Be right back:

Okay - smaller black and gray wire it the always hot one with the key on. The slightly larger green and black one is the one I caught not energized during engine cranking on neighbor's car (yet it would on MY car).
 
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Old 04-14-08, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by ukrkoz View Post
local library/chilton manual. will have any wiring diagram pertinant. cost - zilch.
The Mitchell's in our library is very good. But I'd rather not have to be the one to sit down there and/or otherwise research. This isn't even my car. And I have taxes yet to do.
 
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Old 04-14-08, 11:16 AM
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If you were me, would you chance-it and go to the junkyard and spend $20 on the pickup and cross the ol fingers? The neighbor gave me permission to do that for him.
 
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Old 04-14-08, 11:40 AM
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Yep.....

If your pulling your own parts..grab the ASD relay also.....

If you are familiar with pulling codes on a chrysler product you will be looking for a code 11...No reference pulse at crank---Or since last Run Cycle.

If not.....Cycle the ignition key 3 times in rapid succession (off- on-off-on-off-on) and read the CE light flashes...... A code 11 is a dead give away for a Pickup Hall switch. The SBEC must see these pulses during crank. When it does, it energizes the "ASD" and supplies Ignition and fuel systems with the proper operating Voltage.

Edit:----AWW DAMN....Just remembered something.......Unplug the MAP sensor Electrical connector and try Firing it. A bad MAP can trick the SBEC into thinking BAro pressure is too high...As if the car were under water.---Just worth a try...its cheap and easy and takes two seconds.
 
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Old 04-14-08, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Unclediezel View Post
Yep.....

If your pulling your own parts..grab the ASD relay also.....

If you are familiar with pulling codes on a chrysler product you will be looking for a code 11...No reference pulse at crank---Or since last Run Cycle.

If not.....Cycle the ignition key 3 times in rapid succession (off- on-off-on-off-on) and read the CE light flashes...... A code 11 is a dead give away for a Pickup Hall switch. The SBEC must see these pulses during crank. When it does, it energizes the "ASD" and supplies Ignition and fuel systems with the proper operating Voltage.

Edit:----AWW DAMN....Just remembered something.......Unplug the MAP sensor Electrical connector and try Firing it. A bad MAP can trick the SBEC into thinking BAro pressure is too high...As if the car were under water.---Just worth a try...its cheap and easy and takes two seconds.
Shouldn't the auto shutdown relay though be tied into the positive wire to the coil that gives 12 volts when you turn the key to "on"? THAT wire is not failing. It is the OTHER one that is cutting out.

No code 11. He read me 2 codes over the phone yesterday and 11 wasn't even close to being one of them.

Map sensor theory: Hmmm. Interesting. WHEN do yo make that test to confirm that theory when the car ususally keeps running? Do you have to wait for it to cut out again, and then hurry up and test? Even then, right after the car shuts off you can usually start it right back up again. Only on a couple occassions though has it stayed off long enough to run tests. One of those times, fortunately was when I was meter testing at the 2 coil wires when I had the jack unplugged.

If you are hanging around, post quick please, as I was almost ready to go to the junk yard.
 
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Old 04-14-08, 01:19 PM
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I thought of something else: I BELIEVE - not 100% sure - but I THINK that whenI caught it to not start and no juice to that one coil wire, that when I tried to crank the key, I got the fuel pump to hum. That would eliminate the ASD, if that is true, I'd think, as ASC is supposed to shut off electrical and gas.
 
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Old 04-14-08, 04:31 PM
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That would eliminate the ASD, if that is true, I'd think, as ASC is supposed to shut off electrical and gas.
True.........................
 
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Old 04-14-08, 05:01 PM
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Guess what,unc - I just remembered something really good: He hit a deer in the front about month ago! And he has not told me exactly when this cutting off business started to happen. But he made it sound now like he has been putting up with this for a while! And I was not really sure about the hum of the fuel pump. I remember the hum, but maybe it started then. Maybe there WAS no hum.

The impact damage only caused the front grill to shatter and it bent the drivers side corner of the hood just a little; in like 2 inches. We could actually uncurl it with a big channellocks. He also had to replace the driver's side headlamp assembly (plastic) But? - the impact may have been enough to jar loose some connection enough. Maybe it is even right IN the sending signal unit itself.

What do you now think?

Anyone is welcome to jump in. It be nice to be able to get him the right part tomorrow.

Where is that sensor located to trip the ASD?; do you happen to know off hand? if not I could probably find it.
 
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Old 04-14-08, 05:29 PM
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Where is that sensor located to trip the ASD?; do you happen to know off hand? if not I could probably find it.

It is internal to the SBEC unit. SBEC looks for Ignition Pulses, and when it sees 2 full engine revolutions, as based on the hall effect in the distributor, it closes the relay , which feeds fuel and Ignition systems.

If your not too picky about "backProbing " wires the harnes going to the hall switch should be 7-10 volts on the orange wire , a Pulsing ground on grey and continuity to ground on black.

Its been boxed up for years, so if I can find it, I think I may have the Mitchell version of the Injection System Diagram. I'll PM you for the details.
 
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Old 04-14-08, 06:06 PM
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Thanks. And I wish my neighbor had a cell phone. His wife does, but she doesn't let him have it. For all I know, come 10 pm when his shift gets over 40 miles away, he may get stranded on the way home and have to put up with people pulling over behind him in some remote stretch like something out of the movie, "Deliverance".

I remember seeing something mounted on the front area of my car, and really thought that be a crash sensor to deploy air bag and kill the ASD relay at same time.
 
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Old 04-14-08, 06:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Unclediezel View Post
If your not too picky about "backProbing " wires the harnes going to the hall switch should be 7-10 volts on the orange wire , a Pulsing ground on grey and continuity to ground on black.
Couldn't one already assume, based on no volts at that coil terminal, that I WON'T have those figures you list? Some dead wire or 2?
 
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Old 04-15-08, 07:02 AM
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I saw him after he got home from work at 11 pm. He said the car never shut off yesterday. And he said it ran better than ever. And he said I must have done something right. I told him that I can't take any credit as I didn't do anything but disconnect the 2-prong jack coil primary wires.

The fact he also had a glitch where his speedometer went out recently also, then it TOO came back on, and has given him no more problem (yet), I am wondering if the computer has a glitch, that may be temperature sensitive, or for whatever reason.

I told him to pay attention that if it goes out again, to turn the key to "on" to listen if he gets that hum sound to the fuel pump. And that will only mean something if his car does not start right back up. Very audible in a Dodge Spirt from, the driver's seat.

I told him that if the problem resurfaces, maybe disconnecting the negative battery terminal for a while might cause the computer to reset and make the glitch go away. (Cross fingers, knock on wood type of hope.)
 
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Old 04-15-08, 08:37 AM
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Couldn't one already assume, based on no volts at that coil terminal, that I WON'T have those figures you list? Some dead wire or 2?
No....

The Voltage at the Hall Effect harness are Independent of ASD.

On a ford product , there is an INERTIA SWITCH, which shuts down fuel in the event of an IMPACT. Chrysler did one better. "AUTO SHUTDOWN" . No combustion permitted. Injectors, fuel pump and Ignition. The Usual "KEY-ON" functions are still available.

Failed speedo?????? You may have a Failing SBEC,.
The collision was Right front??? Under the car, look at the harness that runs along the rad support. It was positioned very close to the A/C compressor, And collision damage can shift it to a point where the compressor pulley may rub thru it.
 
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Old 04-15-08, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Unclediezel View Post
No....

The Voltage at the Hall Effect harness are Independent of ASD.
But the Hall effect harness is like a foot long and has apparently 3 wires in that flat sheathing, and is about 1 foot long from the pickup to the jack it goes into. The 2 coil wires are not connected to that jack and go into the main wiring harness (albeit there must be an interconnection there somewhere.) In my testing with the voltmeter, I never undid that jack to test to see what I got. I only checked for 12 volts at the positive and negative coil connections. Is there a test at that jack to determine if the Hall-effect pickup is receiving current, or putting out current?

The deer impact was driver's side front.
 
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Old 04-15-08, 12:37 PM
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the hall effect is not connected to the coil. the hall effect provides a signal to the SBEC (basically piston position) which in turn (the SBEC) turns the coil on and off thru a power transistor. the hall effect switch is a schmidt trigger combination of transistors...it must be supplied battery voltage to operate. put a spark tester on the coil wire...disconnect the hall effect and jumper the 2 end pins together momentarily (flash) and each time you break the connection, you should get a spark.
 
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Old 04-15-08, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by carguyinva View Post
the hall effect is not connected to the coil. the hall effect provides a signal to the SBEC (basically piston position) which in turn (the SBEC) turns the coil on and off thru a power transistor. the hall effect switch is a schmidt trigger combination of transistors...it must be supplied battery voltage to operate. put a spark tester on the coil wire...disconnect the hall effect and jumper the 2 end pins together momentarily (flash) and each time you break the connection, you should get a spark.
Per yor last 4 lines: Do you do the test while cranking the engine? And the "pins" are actually up on the underside of the distributor. The coil wires jack is female. So what do you jumper, and when? Thanks.

I'll also keep you guys posted if the neighbor had the car shut off today. (It didn't yesterday, as previously stated, in his 35-40 miles each way trek to work.)

Oh. And any thoughts about disconnecting the battery cable for a while in hopes of resetting something?
 
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Old 04-15-08, 05:43 PM
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not while cranking...you are taking the place of the hall switch. disconnect the hall effect connecter near the distributor. looking at the harness end of the connector, the pins are arranged in a triangle...momentarily jumper the two end terminals and each time you break the connection, you should get spark from the coil. this test will be most useful if you can get the car to "not start". the test will test the wiring to the SBEC and from the SBEC to the coil and the coil itself. if the car won't start, but you get spark when you do the test, the hall switch is bad and yes, it can be intermittant. if the car won't start AND you get no spark during the test, it's a bad SBEC or coil.
 
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Old 04-16-08, 07:18 AM
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I have to presume the test performed on the pins are going to be on the harness side, since the distributor will then be disconnected.

Thanks. I am going to write this down in my notebook as this is some very important information to always know.

Now for the interesting part: 2 days in a row now, where his car has not shut off. Adn before my looking at it, it had done it every day! You would think that if something like the pickup was failing, or even the coil, they'd plum fail - get worse in time.

I am real suspicious of a programming issue in the SBEC controller. Anyone ever cut one of things open to see what is inside one of these brains?

As an aside as to if I could be credited with at least disrupting the car when I had the pickup out of the distributor? I never disconnected the harness. The only jack I disconnected was the 2-pin jack to the coil. But get this: After I reassembled, out in the dark that night, it never started, and I told my neighbor, and we let it go til the next day where then it started once again and he was able to drive it to work all those miles. And from that point on, it has never failed now in these 2 days.

Because of this, I suspect that controller, and am thinking that these brain boxes must somehow have the ability to reprogram themselves - that there may not even be a break in a wire inside?, - that there is something about the design of these things where these things can just cause things to happen (glitch). And that is why I wondered yesteday if perhaps disconnecting the battery cable might be good for it, if say the trouble were to reoccur.
 
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Old 04-16-08, 07:48 AM
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carguy,

I jsut wrote yor powet in my noterbook. After slowing down to write - I apologize. Yes, you did say to test the harness.

Is there a way of knowing with those harness wires if juice is coming from the SBEC, as it should? Wouldn't some sort of 12 volt test from pin to ground confirm that, if I knew which of the 2(or is it 3, being that it triangular) wires it is?

Is there a way to know if it is the SBEC or coil?

Do you know of any car repair manuals that you can buy that are geared more toward diagnosing cars, thoroughly, rather than being geared for tear down, like the Haynes Manual is? I find that manual lacking in many of my needs (doesn't even list the word "coil" in the many-words index for crum sakes!), over the years. There are issues that come up that are not addressed. We need a manual that explains exactly step by step what your particular car (with just your car, engine size and transmission, without the clutter of several engine types and pictures of each in the magazine! Are they stupid?) does when you turn the key to "start", and every single thing that is energized, the routes the current takes, the colro-coded wiring diagrams, and how every part works, where they are located in your car!!, and what happens if any of those parts fail. And what this may do to gas mileage or the running of the car. There needs to be a listing of all parts and what each one does. This would be most useful to intermediate shadetree mechanic types who know quite a bit about car theory, but simply need to know what all the bolt on satety and emission stuff does exactly and symptoms and what needs to be done to diagnose and get to each one of these.

If I was the owner of a nice vehicle and was mechanically inclined?, - I might be willing to spend $100 for a gigantic or multivolume manual(s), if it covered every single thing that can go wrong. Offer a manual not geared to rebuilding (or at least offer both types), but to fixing outages more. Anybody with me on this?
 
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Old 04-16-08, 09:47 AM
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looking at the schematic, you should have a orange and a grey/black wire. those are the 2 you flash together. orange should be your battery voltage.

a coil tester on an old console type scope can electrically stress a coil and make a bad one stand out. you can measure the primary and secondary resistances. you could substitute a known good one (coil). there is no test per se for a controller. controllers cannot reprogram themselves or repair themselves in any way. what's inside one is the same stuff that's in your home computer, stereo, vcr and anything else that you have that is electronic.

you might give Jendham manuals a loot and see what they may have...I know they have some good OBD II stuff...not sure about older vehicles.
 
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Old 04-16-08, 12:34 PM
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Thanks yet again. I am going to write that stuff down too.

Just noticed the post I did before this one. The typos, (or missing letters due to a flaw in the keyboard) in the first two lines! That is how I normally type, sorry to say. I have to spend minutes per post correcting every post. I could type better in junior high typing class. When I proof read, I did not scroll enough to see those first 2 lines. Sheesh.
 
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Old 04-19-08, 09:59 AM
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Update: His car shutoff on him on the way home from work (45 miles one way he now told me, this morning), only once, and he was able to put it in neutral, when it shut off at cruising speed, and it instantly restarted as he coasted along.

How in the world do you find a problem like this? You almost hope it gets worse so you can test. This is one of these situations where if you told someone you were a mechanic, and then told the person you can't test for this, they'd give you that look like you do not know what you are doing.
 
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Old 06-05-08, 03:41 PM
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Case closed

Neighbors car started shutting off more frequently over time. Slowly but surely. It got so it was doing it like 4 or 5 times a day. Well, yesterday he could not get it to fire up at all at home, and he had the tow truck come.

It WAS the pick up coil. (Remember, carguyinva?, how you were advising on how to test what wire? Trouble is when *I* was at home we could not catch it in the act, except that once when I made the initial post.)

I felt so bad. Here we were thinking about spending the $30 and chancing it, 2 months back. Never did, as I thought it be my luck I would be wrong and he'd be out $30 from my advice, and it might be something like the auto shutdown relay, ignition switch, bad wire/connection hidden, or something.

Well, it was the Hall effect pickup.

They bilk......charged him about $60 for the coil, and 'only' $25 for towing and somehow or another the bill came to about $158.

Can't mechanics be truthful and say the part was under $30, their cost, and that labor and towing amounted to like $130?, rather than fudge what each cost actually was?
 
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Old 06-06-08, 03:34 AM
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well actually the days of a shop being able to get parts at a cheaper cost is pretty much gone and has been gone for several years, anyone can walk into a parts store and probably pay the same price for the part that it would cost a garage even though the garage may spend thousands of dollars there on a weekly basis.
but the garage will still mark up there parts as its part of the way they make money, but its just more noticable now than 10-15 years ago when the garage would get a price break for parts.
as per the towing they probably do recover there cost with higher labor or parts mark up, its not all that uncommon for garages to offer lower tow rates, if they have a tow truck and do there own towing, as it brings in more vehicles to them that they normally wouldnt ever see.
 
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Old 06-06-08, 04:36 AM
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All those tow truck drivers are crooks anyway.

Don't know about other areas, but around here the garage-owned tow truck, other than body shops, has gone the way of carburetors. Generally just not feasible to keep an expensive truck around and have to pay someone to drive it or pull them off a better paying job. If the tow was $25, they either have their own truck or they rolled some of the cost into other items. I can tell you the only tows I do for $25 are short haul jobs for garage owner/manager's personal vehicles.
Unless there was a lot of mileage involved or towing is very expensive in your area, the tow probably didn't cost $130 but it could easily have been $75. Sometimes the tow bill is marked up some when included in the repair bill; $10 is not unusual.
 
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Old 06-06-08, 04:28 PM
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The tow was by the shop owner himself and the garage was 1 mile away.
 
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Old 06-07-08, 11:35 AM
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I maybe way off but does the car have an alarm/anti theft device?
 
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Old 06-07-08, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by e150club View Post
I maybe way off but does the car have an alarm/anti theft device?
No.

And the problem was fixed.
 
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Old 06-07-08, 01:35 PM
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Sorry how did I miss post # 28
 
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Old 06-14-08, 05:56 PM
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Neighbor now sells car! That ends that.

So after he spends over $300 for coil pickup and starter work, just this week, he decides to bail on the car and he traded it in for a smaller foreign 4-banger with dual overhead cam/16 valves and a whole lot of little solenoid things and vacuum doohickies all over the place.

If I would have known, I would have offered him about $500 for it, and stored it, in case mine went south. I wonder what the used car dealer offered for it on trade in?

He is thinking it will even get better gas mileage than his other, that was getting 28-30.5. I told him I hope he can afford the repair bills on this car, as there sure are a lot of little parts plugged in under that hood, for some mechanic to try to figure out.
 
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