Blue smoke at coldstart up: Should I add this additive?

Reply

  #1  
Old 08-10-08, 09:40 AM
Banned. Rule And/Or Policy Violation
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 8,629
Blue smoke at coldstart up: Should I add this additive?

I had this problem with my car sometime back and I thought it was a fluke and it went away. It has now returned. And now it is more often.

My precious 263,000 mile Dodge 4-banger - if it sits for say longer than 6 hours - when I go to start it up, clouds of blue smoke come out the tailpipe. I let it idle for a bit and it goes away.

I cannot tell you if during the time that it simmers down, while idling, if it is due to the fact that the oil infusion is gradually stopping? - or - if initally there is a flood of oil in the cylinder that seeped in overnight, perhaps on some particular open valve, and then the smoke takes quite a number of minutes to go away because that oil got into the catalytic convertor where it is burning it off?

I also sometimes have stumbling-type misfire on one cylinder (no backfire, just runs rough on 3 cylinders for just a few seconds. When that misfire occurs I also hear one lash adjuster/valve ticking, more prominently than others.

But, there are times the blue smoke comes out at cold start up, in the driveway, after it sat overnight, when there is not hardly any ticking or miss.

Would you guess I have a sticky valve that floats open for those few seconds? (Although if THAT were true you would think I would always hear the car sound like a clatter trap from lash adjusters, EVERY single time - but I don't).

Or, do you think valve seals shrink overnight, and then leak for a bit, until friction heats them up? Or could it be that the wear on my cam lobes, coupled with leaky lash adjusters, are only allowing the valve to partially open when cold, and the lash adjsuter is not fully pumped up yet, and due to the valve not fully opening, the vacuum in the cylinder at intake causes not just gas to try to get in, but tries satisfying the vacuum by drawing crankcase vapor or oil out of the valvetrain above, through the seal?

Once the car is warmed up and I go down the road for more than 4 blocks, there is absolutely NO smoke or steam at all that comes from the vehicle. None. At least so far, but I am fearing the future.

And this is doing this even though I am running at about 20% mix of STP-like oil thickening additive right now. I added that due to engine age AND, I noticed in hot weather, my oil pressure gauge would fall sometimes (pegged beyond 0) (not all the time, just sometimes) at idle at stop lights. By adding the STP-like honey, it has not ever done that.

Now I am thinking about adding Sea Foam to the oil (you can add it to both the fuel or oil, to help various unrelated problems) to see if maybe I can free up a hung up valve. Or swell a valve seal? But I am not sure that is what is going on. And I'm thinking by putting in this distillate in my crankcase that the oil will thin and my oil pressure will drop.

Any ideas here are welcome. I am looking for theories also, on why the blue smoke.

As a note, I have not yet taken off the valve cover to see what is going on. The last time I took it off, maybe 3 months ago, when a roller rocker fell out, I noted the cam showed about a 1/32nd inch (a visual guesstimate) ridge at outer edges, uniformly, of every lobe, which I presume shows my lobes have all worn by that much. And hence could explain some slop in the valve adjusters. I did not see at that time any sign of lack of oiling at any roller rocker or lobe. No grind marks or anything. The car runs like a top down the highway (or in town),and the engine does not shake at idle when there is not that early start up miss and blue smoke.

Also my number 3 and 4 plugs get steam cleaned, and I'm wondering if catalytic convertors can mimmick oil being burned, when it might be coolant being burned instead, and interacting with the catalytic convertor? The exhaust does not have that sweet smell. But as I said, I am not up on what maybe the catalytic convertor is capable of changing. Obviously they have the word "convertor" in the name, for a reason.
 
Sponsored Links
  #2  
Old 08-10-08, 09:54 AM
Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 71
Hello
Sounds like you have 2 things going on. First, you have worn out valves stem seals. Can Be replaced in car but you need a valve spring compressor and some compressed air to do the work. Second, you have worn out main bearings; this is why your oil pressure falls to zero when the car warms up. If the mains aren't really worn out, the second cause of little oil pressure is worn out cam bearings. In either event, both are indicative of a rebuild. A temp fix would be 2 cans of CD4 additive for oil burning. i had good results with this myself. However, I also ran straight 40 weight oil with these additives. Doing this in summer is OK but when the weather turns cold, the increased thickness of the oil may make cold weather starts problematic. Hope this helps you

Ben
 
  #3  
Old 08-10-08, 10:13 AM
Banned. Rule And/Or Policy Violation
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 8,629
Originally Posted by italian_guy View Post
Hello
Second, you have worn out main bearings;


What do you think about an additive that can swell the valve seals, if you think that is what it is? Have people had any success with this?
 
  #4  
Old 08-10-08, 11:11 AM
Buddah63's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 4
First off - the blue smoke is definately worn valve seals. this is indicated because the smoke clears after warmup. If it continued after warmup you would be looking at rings. This can also be the cause of a miss which goes away.

Second - I disagree with the drop in oil pressure to be bearing related. Although there is sure to be some wear on the mains, rods, and cam bearings these do not cause an intermittant drop in pressure. If your oil pressure drops everytime you stop and idle then yes you could have a bearing problem, but that does not sound like what you are describing.

Third - Although I love Seafoam for it's cleaning abilities I don't recommend it in the case. Cleaning up the crankcase at the mileage you have could be detrimental to the engine. You could cause yourself external oil leaks and/or blow-by. In an engine with this kind of mileage you can be sure there are carbon/varnish which is keeping some leaks (gaskets and/or rings) from causing major problems.

I would replace the valve seals and put the Seafoam in the gas tank. The seals will keep the oil out of the cylinders and the Seafoam will clean up what is in there along with cleaning the injectors. Also go ahead and replace the plugs while you have them out. You will probably be replacing the cam & lifters not too far down the road but that gets into some money and would be better off being done as part of a complete rebuild.

I hope this helps,

Joel
 
  #5  
Old 08-10-08, 01:12 PM
Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 71
I have torn down and rebuilt many Ford FE 352/360/390 engines and I can say for sure that ANY fall in oil pressure, whether intermittant or otherwise, ALWAYS points to worn cam or main bearings. This fall in oil pressure is more a concern to me than oil smoke from hardened or missing valve seals. If it were my car, i'd change the valve seals and run single viscosity oil + an upper cylinder lubricant such as marvel mystery oil in the gas. Seafoam is good but it is VERY harsh and may remove all carbon which may be holding your motor together. Dissolving all that carbon will do more damage IMHO. I have many successful rebuilds to my name and I think that I know what Im talking about but that is my opinion....
GOOD LUCK!
 
  #6  
Old 08-10-08, 05:34 PM
Member
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 579
I agree with Italian guy 100% .
 
  #7  
Old 08-11-08, 11:35 AM
Banned. Rule And/Or Policy Violation
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 8,629
And I heeded the advice and did not add any additive, like I was going to.

Update. This morning at cold start up, after car sat 11 hours overnight. Cloud of blue smoke again. I smelled it and felt it. To my surprise, it did no have any of that eye-burning odor a car may have when it has been running.

NOW I am wondering if my two-fold problem is that much of the vapor is actually coolant that got down into one of the steam clean cylinders AND I have some oil. Maybe it is mostly steam, and the (little amount of)oil clings to the vapor, making the oil problem look worse, when actually maybe the worse issue is the coolant being burned.

Like I said, when it smokes I do not get that eye-burning sensation, and the smoke feels 'soft'. Within a number of seconds after I start it up, the blue haze goes away, but the more gray vapor keeps coming out. I make a stop 10 miles after highway driving daily and then I look at the tailpipe when I get out and there is absolutely no smoke of ANY kind coming out then. But actually, when I first hit the main drag intown (after the morning start up and billowing the blue smoke) a few blocks away, I see no smoke in my rear view mirror then, whether sort of idling along or if I have to accelerate.

Hmmm. Stop the presses. Just got back in from checking on fluid levels and oil is down about 1 1/2 quarts. I will need to check my mileage records as to when I last added and look at the mileage intervals in the past, before too much more gets said here. I thought I topped it off with the motor honey additive quite recently and so I am surprised at what I just found out.

I will keep you posted when I find this out, and continue to monitor both the loss of coolant, and oil, in given number of miles intervals. I ahave been monitoring both for quite a long time now, so this will help me see where the real losses are

I also better check my pcv valve.
 
  #8  
Old 08-11-08, 12:44 PM
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 9
Burning oil mixed with coolant?

Sounds to me like you need new head gaskets.
 
  #9  
Old 08-11-08, 12:49 PM
Banned. Rule And/Or Policy Violation
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 8,629
At least there is no coolant in the oil. No white milky anywhere.

Update: At lunch I went and added a total of 1/2 pint of motor honey additive and 3/4 qt. oil and it is totally full. I was off on my original 1 1/2 qt.-low assessment. 262,800 miles exactly. I will be keeping track.
 
  #10  
Old 08-11-08, 07:08 PM
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 9
Have you checked it there's oil in the coolant? That would be much more noticeable. Pop off the radiator cap when you're sure it's cool, dig around in there with your finger and smell it. Obviously, if there's oil visible in the fluid or if it smells like oil...
 
  #11  
Old 08-12-08, 07:02 AM
Banned. Rule And/Or Policy Violation
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 8,629
Pirate,

No. None. None in radiator, nor in the reservoir. No film on inside of plastic of reservoir either.

.....................................................................................................
Saga continues. I will try to be brief, in future updates (daily for at least a while) so that as I update everyone following this (mystery), you might be able to more easily put 2 + 2 together.

Review: Remember yesterday I thought I was surprisingly suddenly down 1 1/2 quarts of oil? I was really down only about 7/8ths quart. I topped it off with a mix of 10-40 (that is my normal oil type, for years) and that thick motor honey.

Remember how I have been saying that sometimes there is a lash adjuster clatter sometimes?(cam lobe wear and/or oil bleeding out of adjuster overnight?) And how sometimes there is both lash adjuster clatter AND a down cylinder for a few seconds upon early morning start up only? (or any time car sits longer than 5-6 hours) And remember how I've said sometimes it is either one of those, or both, AND it may smoke blue? But yet I've had the clater and down cylinder where it has not billowed blue smoke. And how it will billow that out for a short while and then simply turn like plain steam color (which may or may not be normal depending on outside weather conditions)?(but a lesser amount of all around billowing after say 30 seconds of idling) And that within about 4 blocks of driving, there is nothing coming out the exhaust?

Okay, this morning after the car sat 10 hours overnight, exactly, the car started up with little clattering (not much), no dead cylinder (ran great) and no smoking!

Now how can a problem like this be there one day and not the next, if say something were wore out with age (262, 859 miles now)?
 
  #12  
Old 08-13-08, 05:47 AM
Banned. Rule And/Or Policy Violation
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 8,629
No billowing again for 2nd morning in a row! Car sat for 12 hours overnight. (No excessive valvetrain clatter, and firing good on all 4 cylinders at start up.)

Coolant level in reservoir about the same.

Oil level already down (faster than it used to, by a lot) by about 1/4 qt. in 103 miles since that add. (Mileage was 262,800 at last fill-add, and this morning I was at 262,903.)
 
  #13  
Old 08-14-08, 07:49 AM
Banned. Rule And/Or Policy Violation
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 8,629
I am becoming more and more critical as my test saga continues. This Thursday 8- 14morning before I started car, I opened hood and looked at oil and coolant levels. About same as yesterday. Started vehicle with hood open and coolant reservoir cover off to observe. 262,977 miles now.

Started car. Billowed blue again. (Remember that the prior 2 mornings, it did NOT billow - that is what this mystery is really about, and must be a clue) Also that stumbling dead cylinder business occured again this morning. (Lots of coolant in cylinder? Floating valve? ?) I quickly ran to hood and looked in reservoir = no bubbles. None. And I have seen them before. But not this time.

Then while this was going on, I quickly opened the oil fill cap cover and felt the air. I am assuming what I was feeling was lots of air blowing OUT. I held my hand many inches above it and felt wind.

The blue color subsides in about 15-30 seconds and then only the steam color is there, billowing heavier than what one might think it should for just being condensation burn-off. While this aspect was going on, I grabbed white paper toweling and put it over the tailpipe for like a good minute or longer. Then looked at the toweling. Absolutely NO discoloration. None. Not slightly gray, nor blue. Perfectly clean-white. But the ground, due to how I was directing the toweling, was soaked.

This is why I am kind of thinking now that much of this billowing is actually the steam. And the reason it looks blue is that only SOME of it is blue, and is being captured on all the moisture droplets. Could be wrong, but I have to guess at something.

Now this is interesting. Remember all that wind I felt high up off the top of the removed oil fill cover:? Well, the pressure became noticeably less. Then, as I was feeling it I wondered if what I was feeling was air blowing out, or being sucked in. So I held the paper toweling over the valve cover hole and it was being sucked IN. That should indicate the PVC valve is working. (But was it working when I first started the car?) But then what was it doing at start up when the billowing is going on?! So now tomorrow morning, if I can remember, I am gioing to put that paper toweling over the valve cover hole first thing, whether or not there is blue smoke, and monitor THAT daily.
 

Last edited by ecman51; 08-14-08 at 08:04 AM. Reason: correct typing + insert more info in post
  #14  
Old 08-14-08, 08:16 AM
Member
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: North Texas
Posts: 2,345
worn out

You can do all the tests you want and add all the additives in the store but I do beleive your problem is a tired worn out engine that nothing but a rebuild will fix.
Have you taken a basic compression test? It sounds like by putting your hand over the oil filler cap and getting a lot of wind your rings are shot,
Do a compression check and see what kind of readings you get but I bet they are on the low side.
 
  #15  
Old 08-14-08, 08:32 AM
Banned. Rule And/Or Policy Violation
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 8,629
Michael,

Remember, I heeded the advise about that one additive (Sea Foam). I only put oil and motor honey in it.

Does your explanation satisfy how my symptoms all go away in seconds? Does this explain all that steam, that only occurs for a short while at cold start up? Or that initial stumbling at start up? Does that explain how it may stumble and not billow smoke, or stumble AND billow smoke one day, but not the next? (THAT is the oddest of all! THAT has to really be pondered.) Does that explain how once it idles for a few minutes and then I go down the road (on the days it DOES billow), that there is absolutely no more smoke of any sort after that?

The car then purrs like a kitten, no engine shake at idle, and even has good acceleration with this 4-banger with 600 extra pounds in the car! (No exaggeration - car was weighed on a scale. 600 extra pounds in only a 3000 pound car is a big addition!) You would think that if it were only wore out, and no weird oddity, like something being temporarily stuck, or something, that the car just would not have any pulling power anymore. But it does. And plenty of it.
 

Last edited by ecman51; 08-14-08 at 08:37 AM. Reason: added last paragraph
  #16  
Old 08-14-08, 08:50 AM
Member
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: North Texas
Posts: 2,345
keep in mind

Keep in mind that as a engine warms up parts expand a few thousands.
On a cold start there is more clearance between rings,valve seals etc.
You have quite a bit of mileage on that engine and it being a four banger that in itself turns more rpm then a V-8 acelerates the wear.
I had a 77 datsun with a worn engine with 200k+ that drove good but smoked but it was still worn out.
Try this drive and let off the gas do you see blue smoke?
 
  #17  
Old 08-14-08, 08:55 AM
Gunguy45's Avatar
Super Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: USA
Posts: 20,798
One thing...IIRC from my motorhead days...don't rings rotate as the engine runs? Or are supposed to? If that's true (and I'm not sure if it is), then the rings could be stopping in a position that cause the smoking some days and not others? Heck maybe even the position of the pistons in the bore, could be having some effect? Or which valves are open and closed. Only way to know would be stop the engine at exact same point in relation to TDC every time.

Heck, I dunno, sounds as good as an extremely oversized heatpump in Daytona Beach FL...lol
 
  #18  
Old 08-15-08, 07:13 AM
Banned. Rule And/Or Policy Violation
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 8,629
Originally Posted by michael van View Post
Try this drive and let off the gas do you see blue smoke?
No I don't. Actually I already thought of that myself, and should have mentioned about this in my posts.

I am always letting off the gas ,even suddenly, even after full throttle, when I have to hurry and brake while accelerating between stop and go lights, and then the 2nd intersection light changes in front of me right while I am accelerating from the light before. And often it is sunny and the blue smoke, or any smoke should show up in the sun's rays, and I see nothing back there.

What I am going to do though is get my next door neighbor, maybe this weekend, to follow behind me on the highway. I can also ask him how fast I am going according to HIS speedometer.

BTW, this morning at 263,012 miles at cold overnight start up after it sat 11 hours, it billowed blue smoke again, plus steam thereafter once the blue went away and changed to that clear-steam color (gray, for any other lack of discription). The engine did not stumble this time. But it ticked a lot. I let it idle, and the ticking gradually got less loud, but still steam, which also gradually became less. Then when I took off, there was no trail that I could see. And I should have been able to see it with that morning sunlight that was reflecting all that blue smoke minutes earlier.

Rather than go on and on about this saga, so it does not seem like a I have a diary going here, and I get in violation of some forum rule, maybe I should only fill you guys in on any changes in the future. As of now, we all know now how it has been sporadic. THAT is the part that I don't understand.

That is why I am wondering if it really IS valve seals or rings, OR, if it could be a gasket that has both a teeny tunnel hole in it where the cooling and also where one of the oil port goes, (yet stay separated, but only combine in the combustion chamber), and sometimes gook clogs it (them?) shut.

Yes, the engine is old and worn. But how could there be no appreciable blue smoke one day, and yet another morning or 3 in a row, have clouds? THAT is what I don't get (other than a theory I raised in the paragraph just above). And the fact that the vehicle is driven to and from the same place and sits overnight for about the same length of time. And daytime high temps have all been about 80 for the last 2 weeks and the overnight lows between 53-60.

Interested parties here might PM me, for daily updates.

Oh. I forgot to check to see about the pressure out of the oil-fill cap this morning! I only remembered to check it about 5 minutes after it was idling. And then it was drawing IN air (through PCV I'd imagine).
 
  #19  
Old 08-15-08, 07:38 AM
Banned. Rule And/Or Policy Violation
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 8,629
Originally Posted by Gunguy45 View Post
One thing...IIRC from my motorhead days...don't rings rotate as the engine runs? Or are supposed to? If that's true (and I'm not sure if it is), then the rings could be stopping in a position that cause the smoking some days and not others? Heck maybe even the position of the pistons in the bore, could be having some effect? Or which valves are open and closed. Only way to know would be stop the engine at exact same point in relation to TDC every time.

Heck, I dunno, sounds as good as an extremely oversized heatpump in Daytona Beach FL...lol
Or like one day, all 3 ring gaps all line up one day?

Regarding the valves being in a certain position. I have thought of that, also. But we need to know exactly what role this would specifically play. LIKE, - is intake of cylinder 3(the steam clean cylinder) open overnight (sometimes)? - and that is the one that lets the oil leak down through the valve seal? But it will not leak through it overnight if it is closed? Now THAT theory may be onto something. Actually, that would be good news to me because in that scenario, the engine may last longer. This could mean only a teeny amount of oil is now leaking in the open valve cylinder 3 just a teeny bit per hour. This could explain why the engine doesn't smoke at all, as much as I can tell, when driving. And maybe it won't for thousands of more miles to come. My oil pressure reads about the same as it always has since I got the car.
 
  #20  
Old 08-15-08, 08:10 AM
Member
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Iowa!!!!!
Posts: 3,673
Rings don't rotate, valves do.
 
  #21  
Old 08-15-08, 08:30 AM
Gunguy45's Avatar
Super Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: USA
Posts: 20,798
Ahhh ok, well those days were quite a while back...thx
 
  #22  
Old 08-15-08, 10:00 AM
Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 71
Why dont you do yourself a favor and go down to the local auto place and buy yourself a good ole vacuum gauge and hook to to a constant source of vacuum under the hood and observe the gauge. This will tell you what is going on--whether you have a burnt valve, bad rings ect....DIRECTIONS come with it! This way, you can eliminate all the stupid guesswork and 'whatifs'
 
  #23  
Old 08-15-08, 04:53 PM
Banned. Rule And/Or Policy Violation
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 8,629
Originally Posted by italian_guy View Post
.... stupid guesswork....
Got to admit though, it's been a fun challenge, right?

I never did own a vacuum gauge and I suppose this would make a nice addition to my meters and indicators collection. I wonder if I would learn something by disconnecting the coil wire and looking at it while just cranking the engine?, so I do not give the engine a way, fast enough, to correct itself, as must be happening when engine runs real smooth and no more smoke.

But couldn't I learn that with the compression gauge on my cylinders 3 and 4? (the ones being steam cleaned)
 
  #24  
Old 08-15-08, 09:16 PM
Member
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: North Texas
Posts: 2,345
vacuum

A vacuum guage is a handy tool it will show you if your valves are shot. You will see the needle drift up and down. I had one a long time ago that I left hooked up and ran into the cab. I used it a lot to try to save fuel. When I punched the gas that sucker would go way down and when I coasted it would go up.Very cool IMO
 
  #25  
Old 08-16-08, 09:41 AM
Banned. Rule And/Or Policy Violation
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 8,629
Originally Posted by michael van View Post
A vacuum guage is a handy tool it will show you if your valves are shot. You will see the needle drift up and down.
Rings will not show it drift up and down?

............................................

Now I might be leaning toward the rings. Went out to car early this morning and made paint marks on harmonic balancer and top timing gear to check where engine may shut off and stop at the most often. Pulled my #3 and #4 plugs that have most evidence of steam clean. Now I think #3 is really the main culprit. I used a penlight down each of those two open plug holes and each piston top was down a few inches and each was shiny metal color and no oil or coolant laying ontop! Started car. It billowed blue smoke within about 10 seconds. No vapor at all from 0-10 seconds. Also, nothing noteable about any severe valve clattering today, nor was there any missfire today. Then while billowing blue smoke I quickly opened up the oil cap and I could feel blowby up 10 inches above the hole and used toweling to confirm it was pushing and not sucking = yes. Then, within 30 seconds only, that blow by pressure reduced so much that it actually was pulsate sucking. (What I mean by that is when I held paper toweling over the oil hole, it bulges and sucks systematically, a flutter, like person breathing in and out, only fast.)

A neighbor who knows cars was curious and we talked while I idled car. After a couple minutes idling and the smoking greatly reduced, looking like any car that gives off vapors in the morning, I revved the engine and let off and he watched and said I had some blue smoke when I let off. I quickly ran out there to look and there was SOME. Then after a few more minutes past and virtually NO more smoking at all, he had me do it again and almost no blue smoke. Just a faint amount.

It DOES sound like rings now, doesn't it?

This was discussed where someone said the rings do not rotate; just the valves. Is that person sure? The rings are not glued in place. You'd think they could reorientate themselves. But if they don't, they don't. Anyone else about this?

Sa 8-16-08 ; 263, 065 miles.

My next tests will be compression gauge and perhaps the vacuum gauge.

Mike,

How did you set yours up so you could read it while you drove?
 
  #26  
Old 08-16-08, 11:51 AM
Member
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: North Texas
Posts: 2,345
Hook up

On my older datsun I just Td it off a vacuum hose on the intake manifold. It will show you valve condition as it jumps back and forth.
 
  #27  
Old 08-16-08, 12:07 PM
Banned. Rule And/Or Policy Violation
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 8,629
Originally Posted by michael van View Post
I had one a long time ago that I left hooked up and ran into the cab.
This is what I mean, specifically. (Your quote above)


HOW did you run it into the cab? Some long rubber tubing, and through the window? Drilled hole in firewall? What?
 
  #28  
Old 08-16-08, 01:11 PM
Member
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: North Texas
Posts: 2,345
grommet

I ran the tube thru a grommet in the firewall and mounted the guage.
 
  #29  
Old 08-16-08, 01:51 PM
Banned. Rule And/Or Policy Violation
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 8,629
Was it a testing gauge or was it actually one of those kind you see in a 3-set that hotrodders like to add to their dash?
 
  #30  
Old 08-16-08, 02:11 PM
Member
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: North Texas
Posts: 2,345
fuel saver

It was a fuel saver guage with a green, yellow and red band on the face but all the vacuum guages are the same just the way they look is diffrent. I bet you can use a test guage full time.
 
  #31  
Old 08-16-08, 03:29 PM
Banned. Rule And/Or Policy Violation
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 8,629
Okay. Thanks, Mike.

.....................................................
Just took off for lunch, and got back now. This morning I drove and it got fully warmed up, then shut it off to post. Then the car sat for exactly 5 hours, cooling down.

So then I go to start it up to go to store for lunch, as mentioned above, and to go to the tomato stand again. I start the car, and I forgot to have looked at where the paint marks were on the harmonic balancer and top timing gear. Rats. Anyway, I start it up and there was absolutely no smoke coming out. Not at 0 seconds, not at 10 seconds. not at 30 seconds. None.

Now wouldn't you think with worn rings that there'd be some sort of proration to the amount of smoke per the time the engine sits to cool down? Wouldn't you expect it to smoke SOME, if at other times it can billow blue smoke if it sits from say 6 hours and up??? I have already had the car sit for 6 hours and had it billow (and billow is an accurate description). So why doesn't it do this all the time? And why doesn't the volume of the smoking hold a ratio with the time it is shut off? This is most disturbingly puzzling!
 
  #32  
Old 08-18-08, 06:10 AM
Banned. Rule And/Or Policy Violation
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 8,629
I may be on to something!

Yesterday morning after the car had sat overnight, it billowed and billowed. Terrible. The worst ever, for time. It went on for like 15 minutes!

But here is the kicker and something I should have been focusing on more in the beginning, as this is a big clue: It took 27 seconds (not a missprint) for any vapor at all to come out the tailpipe!! And those other times it has taken 10 seconds or more!

I started wondering if either coolant and or oil (although the oil seems most likely since exhaust has none of that sweet odor) was pooling overnight in the horizontal inside of the exhaust manifold, and then running into the catalytic convertor, where it took some time to heat up and then smoke. As opposed to it from some cause where it directly enters the combustion chamber and thusly burns right away. Or wondering if crankcase pressure was building for a while to then where it reaches some point where it can force oil past the rings or valve seals, where otherwise it would not. ONE of these 2 theories.


With that LAST thought, I took off the air cleaner and had a look at the PCV valve. The rubber elbow in front of it was cracked. When I put my finger over it, it did not do that check ball suction thing PCV valves are supposed to do! So I tightly bound it with electrical tape, drawing the crack together. I also found the large tube coming out the other end of the valve cover with a big crack the same way. So I taped that too.

Fast forward to last night. After I did chores for a good share of the day, the car sat about 7 hours. I noted on the harmonic balancer and the top timing gear where my paint marks were. I saw none. So I added 2 different pattern ones.

The reason I did so was that when the car sat where the original paint marks were, it billowed. And since I have caught my car billowing one day and not the next, I wondered if valve orientation had something to do with it. (That is IF it were not due to the PCV valve) Then I started the car; no smoke. None.



So then after I shut it off, I rotated the engine by hand so those last marks were in the same position overnight.

Overnight, the car sat untouched since 8:30 PM, and I started it 6:15 AM my time this morning. I started it up, and there was not even any vapor at ALL, until 63 seconds (not a missprint) after it was idling. And then that vapor looked more like how cars normally give off some steam vapor in the morning, and it was clear looking, not blue and not billowing.

Also I want to add, that even when it DID billow those mornings - I mentioned that it went away completely. And within blocks, absolutely no smoke at all. I also previously never mentioned that I go up and over steep hills with acceleration to get over the hills and letting off the gas at the top of the hill and coasting down. I have never seen a blue or any vapor trail in my mirror. Never.

Here is something else: After I fixed the PCV valve rubber, I went out there to check that blowby, where like I said Saturday how I could feel that wind up 10 inches above: I still can. But note that even during when it billowed blue, when I removed the oil fil cap cover I never saw any vapor come out. Just colorless wind. But nonetheless, that is still a pressure that could be responsible for blowing oil/vapor out where it normally would not, otherwise.

My next test is gong to be to rotate the engine one more time overnight to those 'good' marks and see if it does not billow tomorrow morning again. Then, if it doesn't, then I am going to rotate the engine to those other sets of marks I painted on and see if it billows again, so I can come to some judgement about if the problem has been likely the PCV valve as opposed tothe theory of oil getting into the exhaust port but not the combustion chamber.

And hopefully, what I am learning about my car and it's smoking problem may help someone else. This has been most interesting.

BTW, no missfire/down cylinder. But even when and during the billowing early Sunday morning, the car engine was running smooth. So smooth the engine did not shake. My neighbor was over watching and he was most perplexed, as he too said that you'd think that if it were worn rings, it would cause blue smoke right away. Or even if valve seals leaked into the combustion chamber. Not some 27 second delay. Also, the coolant or oil levels are not down any appreciable amount that I can tell, over the last few days, which might also lead me to lean toward PCV theory.
 
  #33  
Old 08-19-08, 05:52 AM
Banned. Rule And/Or Policy Violation
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 8,629
Hoping

Crossing my fingers that I can be lucky and the PCV was a great contributor. This morning, found car engine had shut off last night at the spot where it billowed the worst. This morning, only a little initial blue exhaust (no billowing) for first few seconds, then nothing but the normal moisture burning.

I will also be curious to see what now becomes of the coolant and oil consumption also since making that PCV rubber fitting repair.
 
  #34  
Old 08-20-08, 07:19 AM
Banned. Rule And/Or Policy Violation
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 8,629
No smoke now 3 days in a row following my PCV vacuum line crack and repair. I'm 'knocking on wood' that this was a major contributing cause (on top of engine being old and clearances worn) of the billowing. It appears also that my coolant may not be disapearing as fast either.

I wanted to get ahold of Goatman regarding HIS smoking vehicle, but he has no PM. Maybe he will read this.
 
  #35  
Old 08-21-08, 05:44 PM
Banned. Rule And/Or Policy Violation
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 8,629
Still no smoke...................................
 
  #36  
Old 08-24-08, 09:25 AM
Banned. Rule And/Or Policy Violation
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 8,629
Update:

It has not smoked now for exactly 1 week. It has not stumbled, with one down cylinder at start up, for 1 whole week.

Until this morning! - where it sat longer overnight: 14 1/2 hours, compared to 10 - 12 hours for the other days. This morning, it stumbled again at start up for just the first couple seconds, and then blue smoke came out pretty soon thereafter. It did not really 'billow' this time, nor last as long. But it was there, for a little while.

So much for my wishful thinking about the PCV valve.

The problem with diagnosing this is obviously how sporadic this is. But the common denominator that ALWAYS fits is the car has to be sitting, cold. Never, has the car smoked, once warmed up, and then restarted even several hours later. It will only smoke when the car has been turned off for at least 6 hours or longer. Yet even THEN, it does not do it all the time, even under same nightime temperatures, when turned off for the same time period.

And more often than not (today was an exception) that there is no prorated relationship with time, where it smokes only SOME if car sits for 6 hours, then smokes worse/slightly longer if off for 8 hours, and billows if off for 14 hours. Nope. THAT does not happen. Either it does not smoke at all, or it smokes.

Indicitive that something hangs sometimes, and sometimes not, or, the contraction of a seal or ring has to be just to that point to where either it can seal, or gets to a certain point where it can't. Or a valve is hanging perhaps from gummyness that gets stiffer on the stem when cold.

For the fun of it, I parked the car after I ran it on the highway for 1/2 hour, and decided to pull plug wire #3 at idle, to see if the car losing a cylinder would do something to internal cylinder or crankcase pressures in the engine and cause the smoke. Nope. No smoke out tailpipe or out of open oil fill hole.

As the overnight temperatures start getting colder, with fall coming on, I may have a better chance of doing testing on a daily basis in the morning, to catch what is wrong. Obviously, if I had done testing this week, all the testing time would have been for naught, as I would not have found a problem. Because there was none, this whole week. That is what the pain is about having really sporadic problems.
 
  #37  
Old 08-24-08, 09:30 AM
Member
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: North Texas
Posts: 2,345
Question

Have you done a compression test yet?
 
  #38  
Old 08-24-08, 10:05 AM
Banned. Rule And/Or Policy Violation
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 8,629
Originally Posted by michael van View Post
Have you done a compression test yet?
No.


Because as stated, this entire week, the car started strong. No missfire. No smoke. Not one time.

I WILL certainly run that test though if this probelm starts reoccuring again more often, OR, I can bank on it occuring if I ever have the car shut off again for as long a time as I did last night. Then I will.

I'd REALLY actually like to remove the valve cover and rotate the engine. And I may do that.

Unless this car of mine lets loose on me, or I sell it or scrap it, you guys will find out sooner or later what I find.
I promise you that. This is one of these things where I HAVE to know, or go nuts.
 
  #39  
Old 08-24-08, 11:11 AM
Banned. Rule And/Or Policy Violation
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 8,629
A must see for all the motorheads here who are interested in such a topic.


The probvided link is from our own forum here, over at Outdoor Equipment, in the thread about the Honda lawnmower with white smoke. My car does this, only with even more delay when it starts to smoke, and has billowed even worse (bigger cylinder than lawnmower). But this morning it was about like the video/audio that is the 3rd one on bottom row from the right.

Here: http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=ahenchmen

So now what I'm thinking after reading responses in that thread, and theorizing that oil runs past the valve stem or head gasket?, and lays in cylinder and reason it does not smoke right away is for some reason by design of my engine, the engine blasts the oil down the exhaust pipe, basically unburned at that point, and then the heat in the catalytic convertor maybe starts burning it - is why there has been up to a 27 second delay, at idle, as to when the smoke even starts coming out, at all. Although this morning, it was like that lawnmower and occured withing about 4 or 5 seconds.
 
  #40  
Old 08-27-08, 06:32 AM
Banned. Rule And/Or Policy Violation
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 8,629
In review: White-blue smoke. Then No, no, no, no, no, no, no, yes, yes, no, yes.

Each no and yes is a cold morning start up, beginning about 11 days ago. The last yes is this morning. 263, 645 miles. This time it (only)took about 7-9 seconds for the white(or steam color)-blue smoke to plume out. At first, I was not sure if it was really blue. But it had blue in it. I quickly smelled it and it smells pleasing. Pleasing, not sweet. Not anti-freeze smelling whatsoever. Yet, it does not choke me or make my eyes water the way the car does afer it idles or has been running for a good while, and there is no visible fumes. That is when it burns my eyes and makes my eyes water.

Note that my brake fluid or transmission fluid is not disappearing. Only my coolant and oil levels go down. Also note that up in my air cleaner and throttle body area, there is no oil at all.

And also note that when I take the breather cap off the valve cover (every morning at cold start up, whether it billows out the tailpipe or not), that even though I feel a wind, there is no color/smoke in that wind. When my neighbor had the car identical to mine, and he had about 80,000 less miles, or so, he too had that initial wind but his never smoked.

This makes me wonder if a lot of what I am seeing really is coolant. And perhaps the catalytic convertor takes away that sweet smell? I do not have experience with knowing that answer. All I know is from years ago, before catalytic converters, you could smell it out the tailpipe if your car was burning antifreeze.

If it IS only oil burning, would that give off that non-noxious pleasing soft smoke?

That time delay of when the smoke comes out is one of the clues also. Sometimes the smoke will come out in 7-9 seconds, but has already had nothing come out for 27 seconds, and then starts billowing out!

That is why a couple mornings ago, I theorized that my valve cover bolts were loose(which they were) and oil was running down the back of engine right into an opening in the exhaust manifold gasket. But I tightened them down yesterday morning and obviously this did not help.


Almost exactly 3 years ago, a head gasket was put on when I bought the car. It was never retightened. What do you think of the idea of popping the valve cover and retorquing them after all this time? And while in there, I'd also see what I can see regarding valve lift and lash, etc., when the engine sat and is cold.

Every single time, after the car warms up then, there is no more smoke. None. None when letting off the gas under load either, as much as I can tell. It is as if oil and or coolant is running directly into my exhaust manifold. Or a lot of it is. Or sometimes more runs into the exhaust manifold and other times it does both, due to that time delay.

If I am not mistaken (I'd have to carefully recheck my written records) that I think one morning before I started car, I penlight inspected down on the top of the pistons, I only saw shiny aluminum color metal and yet when I started the car I think white(steamy-tinged blue smoke came out. I think.

I have to solve this mystery before simply getting rid of the car. That is how I am. Mysteries are fun - up til a point.
 
Reply

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Display Modes
'