Figure about $65 an hour at some shop. Plus picked up all new parts for both rears, except only one cylinder and one drum.

I spent many hours yesterday redoing just one side. What a mess. The drum had ground down severely. And the wheel cylinder fell apart due to the spread, and leaked out fluid down the tire. Had to take backroads home.

Could not get off the drum due to that ridge from drum being ground by worn-out padless shoes. Could not turn the adjuster star wheel as it was seized. Did not help by squirting penetrating oil in the backplate slot.

Had to pry out, and hold out at same time, while chiseling off (not much room to swing hammer) those anchor spring pins that go through the backplate at the 3 and 9 oclock position so I could FINALLY wrangle off the drums.

Once I got inside there was a pile of chunks of brake pad and goo - one greasy mess. Had to buy ALL new parts (for both rear wheels), including cylinder. 2 trips to parts house and also hardware store as - get this - the brake shoes did not come with the emergency brake plate attached! Factory brake shoe had emergency brake plate punch press type rivoted in place, and not like Haynes manual that said about removing an e-clip. No such thing.

Mine had about a 3/8ths solid pin through both plates and was swedged by punch press. I had to use grinder and grind off. So I had to get a shoulder type bolt (stainless)at hardware store.

Then I had to drill out the brake shoe hole larger to accomodate. (I had called up 2 parts houses and they only sold regular replacement brake shoes for that car, but knew nothing of that emergency plate mounted to it, nor how I could remount mine so it could turn. (Maybe Dodge OEM sells that shoe, only?)

Had cylinder mount screws, and brake line fitting into cylinder soaking with penetrating oil quite a while. Brake line fitting turned, but unfortunately so did the brake line and the line tore 1/2 inch upstream, so had to splice in new line.

Clean up everything thoroughly with wire brush and brake cleaner spray.

Installed every single part new.

Adjusted star wheel so brake drum would barely slide over the shoes. (Never had to adjust it any more)

Bled brake myself (took only 2 pump/bleed sequences, and very little brake fluid to re-add, even though I had brake line cut and hanging there!, and brake pedal then felt hard = good.

Put wheel back on.

Moved stuff out of the way.

Removed safety blocks of wood holding car in case jack fell.

Removed jack.

Took car for test drive, forward and backward driving = perfect, no rubbing noises, instant stopping, no pull to any side when braking. Excellent.

Came back to garage and spend 1/2 hour spraying greased up tools with brake cleaner and putting away tremendous amounts of tools, etc.

.........................................................

Granted, garages who do this sort of thing all the time are quicker. But considering all that I said above, what do you think they would have charged me for this. Again:$65/hr. plus drum cost $30 + cylinder cost $12 + wheel spring kit (for one side) cost $6 + shoes cost $15 for one side + brake fluid, brake parts cleaner, penetrating oil + stainless bolts-washers-nut cost about $3.

So what about would I have had to pay?

 

i don't know what parts would cost for your job but i would say that it is about a 2 hour total job for what you did. with the proper tools and parts.

life begins when the kids leave home and the dog dies

 

And would they likely also have charged me more than what I paid for the parts? I have them itemized in my post. Perhaps mechanics with a lot of experience doing brakes for a living may have an idea off the bat as to what they charge for some of this stuff. It might help if I say my wheels are 14 inch.

 

Ecman, not a pro of any sort, but they prob would have charged almost double for the parts. Wife had to have brakes done when I was unavailable a few years back. Front discs, pads and rotors only, over $400 IIRC. I almost shat myself. I do remember they charged $125 per rotor for parts, so the other $150 or so was the pads and labor. I checked later and I could have gotten good rotors at retail for around $75 ea.

I just did the same vehicle last year in CA, all 4 wheels, new rear drums, new parts kit, pads and shoes, turned front rotors for about $200. One afternoon front, 1 afternoon rear. I didn't have all my own tools and had to do it in the driveway.

How bout this one, quote from a good shop for front struts on same vehicle. $810!!!! The explanation was, "Well, we replace the strut bearing plate too, no one else does." A set of good struts retail was $160, bearing plates about $45 each (dealer only). So they wanted $560 for labor (remove wheels and maybe 6 bolts/nuts each side). Didn't even include a re-alignment. Huh???

I don't begrudge someone making a living or paying a premium for quality work, but sometimes its just crazy!

 

I agree! The amount you pay a shop is very depressing. I am so glad I can do most repairs myself.

 

what you are forgetting is shop costs, insurance, disposal of solvents, rent for the building, new tools, training, etc. also you have to plan that a certain percentage of repairs will come back do to parts failure or unavoidable circumstances.

i never owned a automotive shop but i have ran a small business and there are a lot of costs that are indirect you have to cover as part of the job. I did work on auto for a living for about 14yrs. though.

life begins when the kids leave home and the dog dies

 

I agree with Speedwrench's last explanation about costs the shop incurs.

But, per your quote here, THAT is the essence of why we are here at DIY, right? And the more I hear my brake repair could have been, actually the happier I become. And the fact is, as soon as I got it home, I started to work on the brakes. Not having to wait 3 days to get it into the shop.

 

The secret is to find a good, honest local shop that has pride and equipment. - Not easy these days!!!

My wife has a 2000 Blazer 4WD, 4.3 l with 85,000 miles on it. One day when I was out of town, the check engine light came on and she wet to a national tire/normal mechanical shop that had been good for tires and alignment. They said she needed new plugs, rotor, wires and fuel filter. The cost price was about $900 in the end with taxes, supplies, etc. and it was paid to get the captive car out. I have not qualms about what was needed at 85,000 miles or maybe a little later since the setup was original with high mileage, but no pronlems, but the cost ($900) was not really realistic.

I had a 1999 GMC Jimmy 4WD, 4.3l (the same car) with 105,000 miles and decided that I was long overdue for maintenance. I found a local private shop that seemed right. I dropped off the car in the morning and they gave me a 1 mile ride home. - Not a problem for me because I could live without the car for moat of the day.The car ended up being tied up all day. They called and asked if I wanted a fuel filter since it was old and eliminated a possible future problem, so I said do it. That night, he brought the car over to the house and gave me a bill for $345 (a big difference) for new platinum plugs, good wires, new rotor and a fuel flter. I was pleased since I may have been able to buy the parts, use my tools or borrow others and fumble around for a lot longer time than I planned. I have learned the the plugs on that engine can be a problem to get at anf there has been problems putting in new plugs. He appolgized taking so long, but he had old customers that had emergencies and though that my repair was not immediate.

For the price, I will go with a good local shop if the price is fair.

Dick

 

I would have suggested replacing both cylinders and at least measuring and machining the opposite drum.

automatic dishwashing detergent in hot water and a good parts brush would work well for this. Since the change what is is brake cleaner, I find the detergent an inexpensive and more than adequate replacement.



did you realize the "head" of the pin was outside the drum? and can often be sheared off without arguing with the drum?






Please tell us you double flared the line and used a proper double female coupling to do this. If not, it's time to redo this.



smart man

Just out of curiosity; where have you seen a garage with a shop rate as low as $65/hr?

 

you know that jack stands are very cheep don't trust concrete blocks unless solids, never trust a jack to support a vehicle, when I worked for OU i was listening to the scanner one day and heard the PD dispatch an ambulance to a house where the homeowner had jacked his car up with two jacks and crawled under it to work on something, then sent his wife to town to get parts when she returned she found the car on the ground with his feet sticking out, needles to say he was DRT, always block your vehicle and use jack stands!!

murphy was an optimist

 

@nap
Well, I had to have the thermostat to waterpump hose replaced on my Dodge while I was on a trip. Found a little 2 man shop in the Shenandoah Mtns. He had to pull off all the accessories and the cast mounting plate to get to it. Little over an hour if I remember right. $55!! On a Sunday! I was expecting prob 3 times that since I knew what was involved and I was from way out of town. Man he was good. Even showed them what the hourly rate was back home from a receipt I had in the truck, would have been at least $95 an hour.
That was 2 yrs ago. Hope they're still in business.

 

Did not do the other side YET. But will do your advice. Note that car with my current one side brake job: No more grinding of drums sound at the rear, and car stops quick and true with hands off steering wheel.

Real brake cleaner smells just like dry cleaning agent (I know that smell) and I'm almost certain it is not water based, you can tell. It is that deadly volatile stuff that probably absorbs in skin and causes cancer.



You misunderstood my explanation. That is exactly what I did. That is not easy, since the head of the pin is flat like a flat screw is, and sits in a depression perfectly. Just because you shear off the pins does not mean the drums will now just slide off, necessarily. I still had to "wrangle" (quote from parts store guy) with them to get them off. You have to jiggle, so that hopefully parts inside jumble around enough inside so the brake shoes can move inward from the drum. That means pry down here, pry over there, repry back over there, use both hands and jiggle, etc. I was lucky they came off, as the ridge of the drum was HUGE. Drum had to have been almost worn through. I have the drum and when I find my outside calipers, I want to see.


No. I just used a normal compression coupling like you do for water lines that are up to 100 psi, and they hold. I have never had to repair a blown apart water compression fitting (well once, 25 years ago, but installed by some DIY'er). But, admittedly, I was actually concerned, and ran my concern past the parts man and he said, "welll? people do it." And he let it go at that. IF pressure is so dangerously going to blow my line apart with a really reefed tight coupler - then how did I make it home once on a torn front brake line, in a 6000 pound pickup, that lost all fluid (I crashed the truck) and I wound it with electrical tape, refilled brake fluid, and drove it home 20 miles??? Not recommended obviously - but how did not that electrical tape blow right apart, and I was able to brake the truck like normal?

Do you happen to know what approximate psi is exerted in a brake line? Then we can do the math and figure out what actual pressure is in the tiny 1/8th inch line. It is the overall pressure that concerns me. For example, I would know that I could likely dangle 20 pounds, from the coupled brake line. If that is the case and it held, then one could figure how many 1/8ths go into 1 square inch. And come with say something like 500 psi. (I have not done the math yet)

The parts man in my one-horse town told me that. Obviously the bigger city nearby will be higher. And dealerships will be worse.

...............................

I'm all ears about your concern about the compression coupler I used. Tell me all you can, especially about the psi, and/or horror stories. But I am a good plumber and am good at the feel I get when tightening things down. You would have thought the parts guy, who is a 62-ish man who has spent his life in that business and has been in that location for the whole 20+ years I have been there, would have said, "I can't sell you this coupler for doing that!!". Because I told him what I needed to do. I told him I was afraid of ruining the next flared fitting upstream, in a hard to reach spot in the frame, and then I said to him, "I'd REALLY be screwed."

 

I used my car's scissor jack under the frame the shock is mounted to, so car did not have to come off the ground much, to get off the wheel. Then I only EVER use wood as backup under the frame on the other side of the wheel. I would never trust of using a concrete block. After all, I had my head in the fender over the metal wheel drum and was thinking about the French guillotine as I was chiseling off the front most spring pin off the back plate. That was the only way I could get at it with my car only up in the air by inches, and yes, I was concerned/a little scared. Actually what I wound up doing is once I peeked back there in the beginning, I did a lot of it by feel, out of that concern. I kept saying to myself, "it be MY luck if.........."....LOP!

I had a good view of my gas tank and I remember looking at my fuel pump and sending unit, contemplating how all these people have the nerve to work on dropping tanks and getting the pump out and all that, with gas fumes. I've never done that, and I'd be really on edge about that. They say that if you need a striking tool to use a brass chisel, due to possible sparks. I'd always be on edge even about a static spark.

 

Here's some info from StopTech...IIRC they are one of the leaders in performance brakes.


http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp...lections.shtml

Bout 1/4 way down the page.

Basically pressure can run from around 800-2000 psi depending on pedal force.

 

Ya, one bout with cancer was enough for me.





I know. I have done (literally) thousands of brake jobs. I always look for the easiest way. Sometimes you can do what I spoke of, somtimes not.

I have had my fair share of all that fun.






AAAHHHHHH!!!!!!

I see gunguy posted relevent pressures. Is the fitting rated for 2000 psi?

I see people jumping off bridges too but that doesn't mean they should be doing it and it does not mean I am going to do it just because that is the shortest route to the river.


I was stupid drunk one time and drove home. How did I do it withuot hitting somebody else? Lucky I guess, so were you. The parts you used are not allowed for a reason (like they are not proven safe for the application) so please fix it right.


I am not sure but Autozone may have a double flare tool loaner. If not and you cannot find one to borrow, there may be ways to help you with this. Let me know.

gunguy has that covered.



I know, I sounds like a nutjob sometimes but honestly, that is not the right way to fix a brake line.

 

[/QUOTE]
I'm all ears about your concern about the compression coupler I used. Tell me all you can, especially about the psi, and/or horror stories. But I am a good plumber and am good at the feel I get when tightening things down. You would have thought the parts guy, who is a 62-ish man who has spent his life in that business and has been in that location for the whole 20+ years I have been there, would have said, "I can't sell you this coupler for doing that!!". Because I told him what I needed to do. I told him I was afraid of ruining the next flared fitting upstream, in a hard to reach spot in the frame, and then I said to him, "I'd REALLY be screwed."[/QUOTE]

It is illegal in all 50 states for a professional repair shop to install compression fittings in fuel and brake lines, with good reason. Although there are exceptions to every rule, it is generally not a good idea to expect reliable repair info from behind a parts counter. If you need to over-think the physics involved, knock yourself out. Just remember that the repair as done is both dangerous (for yourself and everyone else on the road) and dumb, and it will not pass an inspection if your state requires one. Brake lines are cheap, lives are not. FYI, there were, and may still be, ABS equipped systems on the road that supplied a working pressure of 23000 psi at the wheels.

 

Okay. Great.That's the kind of information I am looking for. I am not totally stubborn. Maybe I come across that way. If someone (like you did) can quote some reliable facts, evidence, etc., then I will greatly take that under advisement. Thank you.

Based on what you said, you'd think it be illegal to run anything but stainless lines, as I see lots off pitted lines and you'd think these would be rupturing all the time in cars that drive in snow/salt country. 23,000 psi? How on EARTH did that electrical tape hold and work for me? A guardian angel?

But I'm definitely going to be seeking more info about this, as I do not want to be driving a potential death trap.

I came back to add after I thought of this: If the psi can be that high, I definitely am also going to calculate what actual pressure then is in the approx. 1/8th ID line, and see if say it comes down to an actual force in the line of 1000 pounds of say a tensile outward force. If it is say near that, you'd think even a weak line or flare would split open. That (figure) is a tremendous force.

Anyone else with knowledge relating to this conversation?

 

Pressure doesn't reduce that way, IIRC from Physics and fluid theory. 1000 PSI in a 1 inch line reduced to a 1/4" line is not now 250 PSI. Its still 1000 PSI.

Edit: This in a sealed system of course, which even though the pistons move slightly, a brake system is still sealed. Good old PxV over T = PxV over T.


As to your truck wreck...did you loose fluid afterwards? Cause a split system would still give braking oven with a leak on one side. You may also have crimped the damaged line in the incident, which would limit leakage or pressure loss. No way did electrical tape hold enuf pressure to give any braking at that wheel. You may think it did, but it could never happen. Heck, the fluid itself would probably dissolve any adhesive on the tape.

 

A standard steel brake (hydraulic) tubing is 1020 cold-drawn, tensile strength probably in the 55000 psi range. The calculation required would be for burst pressure: BP = 2tS/Di
S = tensile strength, Di = I.D. of tubing, t = wall thickness of tubing. 1/8 tubing I believe is .055" I.D. which would make t = .035". You can do the math, but I'm thinking you'll get around 70k psi. Double-wall flare connections are designed to exceed the BP ratings of their respective tubing size. Compression fittings can be designed in this manner as well. Unfortunately, the ones you can buy at the parts store for a few bucks aren't these.

 

That is a huge difference from 23,000. 2000 is more manageable. Consider 1/8 inch square would be 1/64th of a square inch. Then consider a round 1/8 inch is smaller than even a squared 1/8 inch, meaning the volume of 1/8th circle may only take up say 1/70th of a square inch, maybe higher number. Meaning the total pressure exerted outward on the ends of the coupler would be about 30 pounds, perhaps tops. Even though I did not use the exact math formula with a calculator, as I know the formula, I am expected to be close to this.

 

Do you know who might have the acceptable type?

Maybe if I keep spraying penetrating oil on that frame mount flare fitting, maybe in time it will come loose, and I can put in an entire section of factory flared tubing.

My thread has sort of evolved in another direction, but this is fine as this is quite important. Safety should be of everyone's interest, and everyone reading this is probably learning something here.

 

there are no acceptable compression fittings for this purpose.


so, do you have an Autozone anywhere nearby? Their website says that loan double flare toolsets.

 

I do not understand the first part of your post with 250 and 1000. The sentences sound contradictory. Reread and clarify exactly. It would seem to me that in any fluid dynamics, that if you take a fraction of a square inch, whose known pressure is per square inch, that no matter what the line size is, the psi remains the same, but that actual force in pounds directly prorates to the size line in question. For example, if 1000 psi, then if 1/4 square inch is used, total force on a weight scale would exert 250 pounds. Yet the psi would still remain listed as 1000.

Regarding your last paragraph, about my pickup and the electrical tape: The line was to the front brakes. It was the reinforced rubber brake line. It had a gaping split and the fluid all ran out. In the cold snowy air, I cleaned off the brake fluid from the rubber line and wrapped winds of electrical tape around it and put brake fluid in the reservoir and drive home as if nothing was wrong at all with the brakes! For real. Yeah, some brake fluid leaked out the electrical tape. And I think I had to stop and add on my way home a few times, if memory serves me. But I made it home and could stop like normal. At least good enough to my memory. I really could not believe it. I was sort of expecting the tape to blow on the first pedal push right there where I crashed the truck, and then tried this experiment. I figured that even if I had air in the line and I was compressing THAT instead of fluid, I'd still be exerting the pressure force and it could still blow, even if just air. But it held. And so I chanced it further and kept testing the brakes, and it held. And so I pulled over to see if I still had ample fluid (as I did not want to run MC dry), and I did. So I drove further and further, and I made it home 23-27 miles about. I probably took the longer back way home, like I did this very last time, a couple days ago with the car.

 

I'm not sure. There is an Advance Auto and many other national chain auto parts stores here. I'd have to hope then I could manipulate the tool in that area just in front of the tire and barely above the frame. I kind of hate to hand flare as factory ones are so perfect. There is an art to flaring, to keep the flare from splitting, for one thing. Such a small tube to be flaring.

Less than 1 foot away is that frame mount coupling where the factory brake line went into and that is what I'd like to hope I can unscrew and simply put in an OEM brake line between wheel cylinder and this frame connector. It's only about a 2 or 2 1/2 foot length.

 

Ecman don't quote me! Quote the website I linked...lol.

I agree no comp fittings are commonly available or acceptable for this. They may be out there somewhere, but not at NAPA, Autozone, or HD

Yer over analyzing. If a fitting is rated at say, 100 PSI line pressure, than anything over that is unacceptable for whatever reason. You can't try and figure pressure vs area on one small bit of it, the engineers have already done that.

I had an old truck, drove it fm VA to FL..no problems. Left it with a buddy while I was deployed. He drove it everyday for 3 months, no problems, til one afternoon he had to panic brake. Blew all 4 lines. Luckily he was able to steer around the problem.

Either go buy the premade lines required to fix yer car or have a shop make a proper repair. Trying to cleanly cut and flare old lines is almost impossible from what I remember, unless the lines are almost in perfect condition.

 

I always figured that could happen, even before you posted that. It only makes sense that if you tromp on the old brakes, the psi will also increase and something could blow. That is why even with my old 264,180 mile car, I do not like throwing the car into passing gear. I do not start out even until motor warms up for a short bit. I am very much a student of Murphy.

I had to use a knive and carve off the outer surface and then use emory cloth, and yet pitting remained, yet the line appeared still thick, safe, and I was actually thinking a little brake fluid might leak out of the coupling. But it is not.

But you guys have scared me enough and I want to try to get that line section replaced, so I will keep spraying that fitting and hope I do not round off the hex nut, like I did at the back of my wheel cylinder, as getting vice grips in that frame area would be hard to do, from what I remember. I know they keep inventing all these new tools, that as you turn it, the tool gets tighter on the fitting, - but it seems like the head of these tools is too big to fit in confined areas, and this spot is really confined, where I think only a tight fitting box wrench can get in.

 

RE post #23

Ok, we both have way too much time on our hands...lol
Luckily I have my PC in the garage and can watch the race at the same time.

Regarding my post on pressure..no engineer here. All I was saying was that reducing the size of a line in a sealed system does not decrease the pressure in the smaller line. It may reduce something but not overall pressure. 1000 PSI on 1/64th sq in of a 1" tube is the same as 1000 PSI on 1/64th sq in of a 1/4" tube. But, if I apply 1000 PSI to a piston with 1 sq in area, I don't get as much force as I do with a piston with 2 sq in area. The pressure is the same but the force is different as you stated.

I think we are saying the same thing in different ways.

I'd spray the Liquid wrench on the mounting blocks for the lines, not the coupler, and do a replace and bleed job.

Ok, now my brain hurts...lol

 

Yer only a student of Murphy? Some projects, I think I'm a research subject of that old bastid!

 

i have mounted pressure Gage to brake lines testing boosters, you do get 2000 psi at the wheel cylinder, that is why copper lines are not allowed on brakes, it stretches and looses strength over time. brass compression fittings are not rated for those psi's either. regarding that brake fitting that is stuck check out a snap-on flare nut socket it should loosen it right up. price is reasonable last time i checked.

life begins when the kids leave home and the dog dies

 

it sounds like your best bet is to replace up to the factory coupling. The lines are mounted to the frame with small clips and bolts usually. If you unbolt them, you can gently pull the line away from the frame.

as to double flaring, piece of cake once you get the hang of it but yes, if it is new to you, there is a learning curve although most in this thread (if not all) have expressed enough intelligence that it is obviously not beyond them if they needed to do it.

I do not want to scare you ecman. I do not believe what you have is going to have a catastrophic failure (no promises though) but it needs to be repaired properly.

a quality line wrench would be the best tool for the job.


use one on the line fitting and one on the coupling.

I will only mention heat but since you trepidation involving the gas tank, I won't get too involved unless you want to discuss it.

 

Yes. That is the tool we need. Can grab more sides. Just what I need more tools. Although, that looks familiar and wonder if I have one buried somewhere.

I told my visiting cousin yesterday (he does now the stuff I did 25 years ago) that proof of all that I do can be found in my tool boxes and all my supplies, and I told him I even have dental instruments, as I do surgical like repairs sometimes. He looked at me strangely.

That fitting is fairly close to the gas tank and lines. No thank you. I got this thing about explosions or some fire, and wouldn't care to watch all my tools and supplies in the car -or me - go up in smoke.

 

ecman I'm with you on dental tools. That was the advantage to having a friend who was a dentist in the Navy with me. He always called when the old stuff was being replaced. I have a whole tool drawer full. I also learned to use 'em when I was in Micro soldering school.