Mazda Tribute brake issue

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  #1  
Old 09-18-08, 01:03 PM
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Mazda Tribute brake issue

Hey guys,
Thought about the truck and SUV forum, but this is a more general question. 2001 Mazda Tribute 4WD, 3.0 V6, Disc front, Drum rear, no AntiLock, 130K miles

Got a bad vibration from the front brakes. Wait, cancel that, bad pedal pulsation is more accurate. Only feel it anywhere else (steering wheel) when it's real hard braking from high speed. No vibrations/noise felt when using E brake. At high speeds when slowing, pedal pulsing easily felt, at low speeds its very very light, but you can feel the car sorta drag coming to a stop (roll free, decel, roll free, decel,..... hope thats clear). Started maybe 2K ago, and seems to be getting slowly worse.

Seems to sometimes change if I make a U turn and brake from same speed. Not very noticable when starting from cold. More noticable after repeated braking from speed (yes, we do have mountains out here).

New brakes (discs, drums, pads, shoes, rear hardware) and flushed system about 10K miles ago. All Raybestos mid-quality USA parts. Pads, rotors show almost no wear as expected. Discs are almost 1/2" thicker than min spec, so almost brand new. Even wear across disc surface (used a Sharpie mark on rotor to check). They are the ventilated type rotors, not one solid piece. Webbing isn't badly corroded or cracked visually.

Checked runout on outer surface of disc only (so far), spec is .004, I'm getting .003 max on one side, .002 on the other.

Bearings appear ok, no movement when checking for slop, but they are original. Car has had several shop inspections last few years, was never mentioned as an issue. Not an off road vehicle of course, and has been in pretty mild weather since new.


2 questions...

Do I need to check the inner runout on rotors this new?

And what else can I look for?

I'm trying to avoid pulling the calipers and rotors off if possible, just a pain.

I know, lots of info, but better than too little, right?
 
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  #2  
Old 09-18-08, 02:25 PM
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you will need to pull the calipers and use a dial indicator to check both sides for square or runout, most of the time when you have the type of pulsation you describe it is rotors that are not parallel side to side, so that it is pushing the piston in and you are pushing it out with the pedal. you could check it with a marker that is fixed to just touch the rotor and then turn the rotor by hand while looking for motion away or toward the marker but dial indicator will be more acurate, if that doesn't find it then look for worn front end parts but that is a long shot, how are the front tires any signs of cupping or wear on one side or the other?
never to much info if clear and descriptive.

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Old 09-18-08, 02:37 PM
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Ok, thx Speed..
I checked the outside with the dial indicator, but can't easily access the inside w/o pulling the calipers. Figured I'd ask before doing it. Hey, new dial indicator, need to use it, right? Wish it had longer arms, or a better magnet, any hints on mounting it to something? Old brake drum maybe? Won't hold to the frame very well, not sure why. On my anvil it's solid.

No, suspension is still pretty tight, new struts and bearing plates w/i last 6 months, new sway bar connectors, one new lower control arm thanks to a clueless dealer (it was the strut plates). Tires wearing fine, course we only do about 500 mi a month, if that. But even across the tread and correct inflation.

Ok, time to find my correct size allen wrench.
 
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Old 09-18-08, 03:53 PM
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Well, not as bad as I remembered, guess cause it hasn't been that long since I did it, I have my own tools now, and an air conditioned garage...lol.

Ok results... lateral runout on each rotor is equal (.003 max and .002 max) on inside and outside surfaces. Checked it outer, middle, and inner sections of pad contact area, both sides. Well w/i spec.

Do I need to mark the high and low areas of each rotor and ensure they are the same on both sides of the rotor? I only have one dial indicator or I'd set 'em both up directly opposite each other.

Would it be worthwhile trying to index the rotors? That means taking off the caliper mounting brackets, but if it could be the issue, I'd rather do it now than after reassembling everything.

Again, original hubs, brand new rotors, and the problem wasn't apparent until about 7-8K on the brakes.

Gawd, I hate to say this, but it just popped into my head, could this be as simple as improper torque on the lugs? I know that can cause problems, and they did seem a bit easy to break free, but it hasn't been that long since they were installed. I would think improperly torqued lugs would show up pretty quickly in the pedal feel.

Ok, it's cold one time..so throw out any thoughts, I'll check back.
 
  #5  
Old 09-18-08, 04:20 PM
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according to the factory workshop manual the max run out is
.002 in. and yes improper wheel torque can cause the rotors to warp reguardless of mileage and for this vehicle its 98 ft.lbs.
good luck.
P.S. uneven rotor paralellism can cause pulsation as well,measure rotor thickness with a micrometer at three different places and make sure that they are within .002 in of each other.
the manual also states that these rotors should be machined on the vehicle to make up for "stacked" tollerances.but I don't think that it is necessary
 
  #6  
Old 09-18-08, 04:55 PM
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Thanks greg

One of those numbers don't jibe with what I have. Ok Ok I'll admit it, it's a Haynes, not a Chiltons or a factory book. But everything else in the book has been pretty accurate. I have runout at .004 and lug torque the same at 98.

Not that I'm doubting you, they could have changed the specs for sure, and I don't have Mazda dealer here to check. Think Ford Escape would be the same? We have a Ford dealer (of course, it's Arizona)

I'm not sure what "uneven rotor paralellism" means. Could you explain a bit more. I have a micrometer (hmm, I think, haven't used it in a while...woohoo new tool time!), but I think it has a pretty shallow throat. When you say 3 different places, do you mean around the rotor, or at different depths at the same place on the rotor?

And I realized I wasn't clear on when the lugs were last touched, it was probably when I did the brakes 10K ago. So the pulsing didn't show up for 6-8 months/7-8K miles after that. Yeah, I know, I'm overdue for a rotation.
Would it take that long for a problem to show up?

Don't know if I can even find a place to do an on vehicle turning anyway, we're in a pretty small place.

Finally, will re-torquing the wheels to the exact correct amount correct the problem, or are they screwed once they're warped w/o recutting?

I have the old rotors which are still plenty meaty enuf to be cut. They didn't really need replacing, but it was simpler at the time to do it that way. Maybe I should take them in somewhere to be checked and cleaned up?


Anyway, thanks for the help!
 
  #7  
Old 09-18-08, 05:13 PM
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hi, the numbers that I gave you are from the factory workshop manual (I work for a dealer).Putting the correct torque on the wheels now will not solve the problem. When you check for paralellism you check thickness at three different spots around the rotor.If you have the old rotors turned don't go under .030 above discard.
 
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Old 09-18-08, 05:39 PM
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Thanks again greg
No, the old rotors are actually about 34mm and groove free. They are stamped as a minimum of 22mm.

I get ya on the .030in/.76mm above discard thickness, that won't be a problem I don't think. If it was I'll have the on car rotors turned. They're even thicker. (All this inches to metric conversion is hurtin my head....lol)

Ok, you said you work for a Mazda dealer...boy are you in for it now!!!

Any idea how I can find a dealer that may have a discontinued part in stock? They changed it from a $20 part to a $120 subassy. It's for the rear hatch lock actuator. Prices have varied from low of $120 to over $170. Haven't found a reputable junkyard to help me yet. Must be some way to find a dusty old box sitting on a shelf somewhere?
 
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Old 09-19-08, 03:11 PM
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Ok, another question if anyone checks back. Saw differing opinions.

Anti-seize on lug nuts, or clean and dry? Is a wipe of anti-seize ok between the hub and the inner rim of the rotor?

Opinions?
 
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Old 09-19-08, 04:01 PM
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I've never put this stuff on lugs before. Just wipe them down.
 
  #11  
Old 09-19-08, 04:23 PM
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The rear lock accuator is not available anymore they do not even list it in the catalog if you need one my parts dept can get it about 150.00 plus shipping.
I would never put anti seize on lug nuts they are held tight by friction, if you lube them they could come loose. Be careful on putting it on the hub it is possible that the brush on type could cause rotor run out.I personally do not like the stuff, I do not use it at all.
good luck
 
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Old 09-19-08, 04:31 PM
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Thanks guys, guess it's no antiseize. Maybe thats why the new rotors went bad on me (cause I tried to make it better..lol).

I'll wipe off any that may still be on the hub and the lugs.

Thanks also greg, for the info on the part. Gonna have to just keep checking junk yards on trips to LV. Lock still works ok, just have to manually open/lock the hatch. Damn I'm getting spoiled huh?
 
  #13  
Old 09-19-08, 04:37 PM
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did you ever get the recall on the rear latch done? It may not have been on the Tribute, but I know that it was on the Escape.call your dealer with the vin.
 
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Old 09-19-08, 04:42 PM
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Yeah, pretty sure all the recall stuff is done, was in the shop out in CA last year, and they did a couple, don't think any involved the hatch.

No dealers here to check, but I'll look it up on AllData. Still trying to figure why we have no Mazda dealer, but we DO have Suzuki and Kia dealers?
 
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Old 09-19-08, 05:29 PM
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No Ford dealer either? Ford/Mazda.....same thing......
 
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Old 09-19-08, 05:53 PM
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Gunguy, I have been working on cars recreationally and for a living for about 20 years. Put on a lot of wheels and put never sieze on every lug nut on every wheel, havent had one come loose yet. Put on the slippery stuff and use that torque wrench and you will be fine.
 
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Old 09-19-08, 06:02 PM
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You don't know my Ford dealer here...they could give less of a crap whether they help me or not. If yer not a new car/truck buying customer, they really don't seem to want to help. My old Mazda dealer when I was in CA for 6 mos was a great guy, gave me Ford part numbers for things I needed in case they were cheaper (HAH). Charged me jobber price...great place.

I seriously can't believe some of the parts I bought here were $5-10 more for a $35 part, than if I had driven to LV to a Mazda dealer, normally it's the other way around. Time was the issue.

And some things (Ford/Mazda) are different, suspension, engine tuning, just little stuff. Most things I can deal with.


wire twister...only 20? Jeez...newbie!!! LOL J/K I've been wrenching on my own rides since '73 or so. Never had rotors go out of whack like this. The car was done at the same time, and it's fine, with more miles. I really think I just missed something on the lug nuts. Maybe forgot to re-tighten after a few miles. All my fault, I know that. Thanks for the response!!

Ahh well, I have a new torque wrench and dial indicator...I can't complain. My wife loves that I can fix things myself, so I get to slide on lots of stuff.

Thanks again guys.
 

Last edited by Gunguy45; 09-19-08 at 06:13 PM. Reason: Wiretwister response (maybe... jeez what up here?)
  #18  
Old 09-19-08, 08:18 PM
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i have to admit that i use antiseeze on a lot of things especially when dissimilar metals are involved. but I also use a torque wrench for all assembly.

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Old 09-20-08, 04:16 PM
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To everyone that helped, thanks! Just to let you know the outcome.......

I took the old barely worn rotors to a shop (no names here) to be cleaned up. When I installed the first one, it had a runout of over .010! Couldn't believe it. The other was fine at less than .0015. Realized there was some rust on the inside of the bad one, which probably threw off the machining (Why would they not inspect it or hit it with a wire wheel before turning...jeez.)
So anyway, took the best of the newer rotors that measured about .002 runout and indexed it to the hub for the best outcome, bout .0015 as well. Torqued caliper brackets, calipers and wheels to spec. Checked rear wheels and they came loose way too easy. Retorqued to spec.

Test drive seems good, thought I felt a little pulsation, but on smoother road I couldn't detect anything. If it starts again, I'll just pay someone to find and fix the problem, but at less than 10K miles a year, I doubt that will happen, anytime soon.

So this whole adventure was caused by me not rechecking the lugnuts after my last rotation or brake job, whatever it was. I don't think I had it anywhere that they touched the wheels.

The bad rotor is in the trash, the SUV is back out in the driveway where it belongs, I have a new dial indicator and high range torque wrench...so, all is good in my world...other than Kyle Busch winning the Nationwide race.

Thanks again!
 
  #20  
Old 09-20-08, 07:05 PM
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I just have to say one thing there is no manufacturer that reccomends(sp) that you would use anti-seize or any other lube on the lug nuts or studs.
and by the way I am glad that you have solved your problem,as you can see that when you have a brake rotor turned on a bench lathe there is quite a difference in run-out,that is why the manufacturer recommends on the car lathes be used.
I am glad that I could help(if I did)!!
 
  #21  
Old 09-20-08, 07:40 PM
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Unfortunately, to my knowlege or any of the places I called, no one here has the equipment to do on car turning. Maybe the dealer did, but they didn't want to do part of a job. They said bring it in and let us look at it, but our service dept is closed til Monday...no thanks!

I did wipe down the studs with a wet solvent rag, so I'm sure most of the antiseize got wiped off. I'll check them again after 50 miles or so.

Kingman Street Drags on RT66 downtown tomorrow though!
Goggle that!..looks like a great time, my first year. Awesome cars, beer, and food..what else do you need?
 
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