Starts n Stalls 1984 Celica GT

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  #1  
Old 12-05-09, 09:30 AM
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Starts n Stalls 1984 Celica GT

This car 155k on this car and it doesn't appear to have any kind of work on it whatsoever. People I got it from kept it in the garage. It's always ran great in the two years and 20k miles I've put on it. About a month ago I started it up, drove a few blocks and it stalled. Never did that before. I tried to start it again, it started (REAL HARD STARTING) but sounded like it was running on two cylinders. It then promptly stalled and wouldn't re-start at all. I left it on the side of the road overnight and when I came back early the next morning it started right up. Ran normal for about 30 seconds and stalled again. Re-started it (HARD AGAIN) and it sounded like it was running on 3-2 cylinders just like the night before. It stalled again and wouldn't start. Left it sit for about 3 hours and it fired right back up. Thing just keeps stalling after about 30 seconds of running. I've checked the volts & ohms on the pick-up coil and coil. I've checked out the voltage on the igniter but I don't believe there's a test shown for the resistance. Anyhow, the volts read correctly. All the fuses in this car are good. I've changed the fuel filter and pressure tested the line at the fuel rail. Thirty-three psi.. Good.

Anyone know of a site that shows the sensor specs (cold start, oxygen, fuel shut-off timer, etc.) for my vehicle? I have a Haynes manual for it but it's limited as far as this category goes.


Any input on my prob would be appreciated. Much Thanx
 
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  #2  
Old 12-05-09, 02:38 PM
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If you can show the 33 psi on the rail when it is down and not starting and your plugs, wires, distributor cap/rotor are in good shape it would be the igniter, coil, or ECM - probably coil/igniter. Get a salvage yard part to diagnose it.

Resistance on a cold electrical part doesn't ell you a whole lot, since it can change once it warms up.

** 22RE is a great engine = put 265,000 on one. Junked the car when it turned to rust, but the engine was still ticking away.
 
  #3  
Old 12-06-09, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by marbobj View Post
If you can show the 33 psi on the rail when it is down and not starting and your plugs, wires, distributor cap/rotor are in good shape it would be the igniter, coil, or ECM - probably coil/igniter. Get a salvage yard part to diagnose it.

Resistance on a cold electrical part doesn't ell you a whole lot, since it can change once it warms up.

** 22RE is a great engine = put 265,000 on one. Junked the car when it turned to rust, but the engine was still ticking away.
Already tried a new coil and igniter along with a new pick-up coil. No dice.
 
  #4  
Old 12-06-09, 11:07 AM
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How's it set for routine maintenance having been done. I'm thinking something like a burn-through on the rotor or bad dist cap.
 
  #5  
Old 12-06-09, 04:03 PM
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So you have the pressure of 33 psi when it quits, and the plugs/cap/rotor are in good shape? In addition to that you have put in a new coil and igniter as well as a pickup coil.

The engine runs well for 30 seconds and quits all at once - no sputter or anything like that?

It sounds like ignition or the ECM and if you have all of the above the computer is about all that's left. Your cold start injector or the ox sensor would be unlikely.

You might pop off the distributor cap and check the shaft play and turn the rotor by hand to the full advance position and release it to see if it returns. Then put vacuum on the vacuum advance to see if it's working.

Now, pull off the EGR valve, put vacuum on the diaphragm to see if that thing is opening and closing properly.

*** You can use just suck on those lines for a vacuum source.
 
  #6  
Old 12-07-09, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by marbobj View Post
Your cold start injector or the ox sensor would be unlikely.
Please tell me why that is.

Originally Posted by marbobj View Post
, , ,pull off the EGR valve, put vacuum on the diaphragm to see if that thing is opening and closing properly.

*** You can use just suck on those lines for a vacuum source.
I'm also starting to think that it could be something in the emissions.

BTW, when it stalls it does kinda act like either it's running out of gas. Can't be though. I'm getting plenty. Could something be turning off fuel flow electronically?
 
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Old 12-07-09, 04:40 PM
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Possibly. I know this is diy.com, but I'm thinking this is a candidate for some time on a scanner.
 
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Old 12-08-09, 03:47 PM
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Originally Posted by the_tow_guy View Post
How's it set for routine maintenance having been done. I'm thinking something like a burn-through on the rotor or bad dist cap.
TOP-NOTCH maintenance. Car's never been worked on. Has never needed to be worked on before.
 
  #9  
Old 12-08-09, 05:26 PM
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Clogged cat? But I don't hink that generally causes so drastic a shut down after such a short running time.
 
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Old 12-08-09, 09:53 PM
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Originally Posted by the_tow_guy View Post
Clogged cat? But I don't hink that generally causes so drastic a shut down after such a short running time.
How would U check for a clogged catalytic converter?
 
  #11  
Old 12-08-09, 10:25 PM
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For something like your Celica you'd have to tap a hole upstream from the cat and check the pressure in the exhaust pipe. Usually a normal pressure runs about .5 psi or lower with a 4 psi spike (snapping the throttle). Some of the foreign jobs have the modulator for the VSV (vacuum switching valve). The modulator is exhaust pressure driven, so you can use that port to check cat backpressure. I'm pretty sure you don't have that setup.

In answer to your question about the ox and cold start. The ox takes a while to heat up to 600 F. It typically isn't connected to shutdown.

The cold start injector doesn't go past starting. However, looking at maybes.... if it was leaking or feeding constantly = flooding out the engine, but that wouldn't be high on my list of possibilities.

The fuel thing = if it was cut off you couldn't get the 33 psi at the rail.
 
  #12  
Old 12-09-09, 07:11 AM
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Originally Posted by marbobj View Post

The fuel thing = if it was cut off you couldn't get the 33 psi at the rail.

True.


So? What else is there?
 
  #13  
Old 12-09-09, 08:56 AM
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From a distance it can difficult to pinpoint it - and sometimes with it right beside you it can be a headache.

For a sudden shutdown - no sputter, like you just turned off the ignition switch = a good guess is it's something in the ignition. If you have a check engine light you should go directly to a scan to pull the code. It may take care of everything.

A lot of things won't put a code in the computer, though. Fuel is one of them.

Past getting a code you have to approach it systematically and keep in mind that thing didn't fly down from another planet so you can get it to work. The higher the mileage, though the more things can go wrong with it.

Anything affecting all cylinders goes back to a common point = distributor cap, rotor, coil, pickup, igniter, ECM, ignition switch, wiring. You know if you have complete shutdown just one plug wire isn't causing it. A lot of times you can fix a wiring problem just by going through all the ignition connections, pull them apart and reconnect them.

If you have the shutdown with some other symptoms preceding it, i.e. missing, poor power, an egr or the fuel system should be considered.

As a rule if you go through the possibilities using the symptoms as a starting point, you get it fixed about 90%(just to put an "about number" on it) of the time.

In your case, if you have a check engine light, go that route with a scan on it. If not, make sure of the fuel pressure in the no start condition. That being OK, check to make sure you have spark at the plugs, by grounding one and have some one spin the engine over. You should have a bright blue spark. Check the timing as well. If all's well there, consider the ignition as OK, and check out the EGR. If you get it to run for any length of time, apply vacuum to the EGR port. It should run rough or stall, then straighten right out when you take the vacuum off.

If you haven't put a distributor cap/rotor and checked the timing advances, do that.

Still looking - pull off the valve cover and check the tension on the timing chain. With that age and mileage, I imagine the chain guides need replaced and although your symptoms aren't normal for a timing chain, take a look at it. You can see most of it with a flashlight and the valve cover removed. You will also be able to see the drive gear for the distributor and the cam lobes. The gear and lobes on that engine aren't real problems, but it's easy to see all that with the cover off.

At this point you've covered a lot ground, but it can be done in couple of hours.

Post back with what you find.
 
  #14  
Old 12-09-09, 05:29 PM
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I've tried fixing this thing for over a month now so I've started it many many times. Quiet often it sputters. Like it's running out of gas. I'll start it after 5 days of just sitting and it will fire right up like it always has. Then after a minute 'or less or more' it will idle down pretty quick and stall like it's running out of gas. Sometimes I can get to start again directly thereafter and sometimes not. Doesn't matter though. The darn thing won't run over a minute or so when U do get it started.


???
 

Last edited by the_tow_guy; 12-12-09 at 06:17 AM. Reason: Not necessary to quote entire previous post.
  #15  
Old 12-09-09, 09:57 PM
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Did you try spraying carb cleaner into the air supply before the throttle vane? At the different seasons the weather lossens the gunk coating on the plenum which causes the vane to stick shut at idle. Couldn't hurt......

Be safe, Gary
 
  #16  
Old 12-10-09, 05:18 AM
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That could be the problem, Gary. Definitely take a look at that thing.

Just disconnect the air supply tube from the air filter box and you'll have it right in front of you.
 
  #17  
Old 12-10-09, 08:31 AM
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Originally Posted by GBR in WA View Post
Did you try spraying carb cleaner into the air supply before the throttle vane? At the different seasons the weather lossens the gunk coating on the plenum which causes the vane to stick shut at idle. Couldn't hurt......

Be safe, Gary
Tried that last week.

Nope.





P.S. I'm a HUGE SEAHAWK fan.
 
  #18  
Old 12-10-09, 12:39 PM
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The vane is moving freely then?
 
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Old 12-11-09, 06:08 AM
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Originally Posted by marbobj View Post
The vane is moving freely then?
Perfect working order.

BTW, we've been having some very cold weather in my part of the country (Northern Calif). I'm mentioning this because I've noticed every time it's very cold outside and I start it, it will run longer. Before the weather changed it would only run for about 30-60 seconds. Now with the early morning cold it will go for about 2-3 minutes before it sputters out and dies. Also, I now only have to wait for about 20 minutes or so to re-start it again. Not several hours like I use to. Is this something involving the cold start injector? How bout the 'cold start injector time switch'?
 
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Old 12-11-09, 09:22 PM
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In view of that it could be a possibility. Looking at that in particular - if the injector was leaking or not closing, or if the switch was stuck on (either in the switch or the thermal sensor on it was bad) you would have a flooding of the engine after warm up. The warmer the air ambient temperature the more aggravated the condition would be. The colder, the better off you'd be.

The switch/thermal sensor (temperature switch) could be taken out of the equation by starting the engine and letting it warm up for, say a minute. Then shut it off and disconnect the cold start injector wire. See if it will keep running.

For a small amount of extra fuel, the ox sensor would signal the ECM to cut fuel from the cylinder injectors, but if it was bad enough it could still flood the engine.

For a leaking injector, though, you'd probably have to take it to a dealer to have it checked out or get a salvage replacement.

If you give it more throttle will it try to keep running? How about any black exhaust or maybe pulling a plug and looking for an over rich coloration = blackened?
 

Last edited by marbobj; 12-11-09 at 09:41 PM.
  #21  
Old 12-12-09, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by marbobj View Post
In view of that it could be a possibility. Looking at that in particular - if the injector was leaking or not closing, or if the switch was stuck on (either in the switch or the thermal sensor on it was bad) you would have a flooding of the engine after warm up. The warmer the air ambient temperature the more aggravated the condition would be. The colder, the better off you'd be.

The switch/thermal sensor (temperature switch) could be taken out of the equation by starting the engine and letting it warm up for, say a minute. Then shut it off and disconnect the cold start injector wire. See if it will keep running.

For a small amount of extra fuel, the ox sensor would signal the ECM to cut fuel from the cylinder injectors, but if it was bad enough it could still flood the engine.

For a leaking injector, though, you'd probably have to take it to a dealer to have it checked out or get a salvage replacement.

If you give it more throttle will it try to keep running? How about any black exhaust or maybe pulling a plug and looking for an over rich coloration = blackened?
When I start my car it runs beautifully. Just like it always has. U wouldn't think that anything was amiss until about a minute or so into the warm-up. When it starts to sputter and die and I give it more gas it dies even faster. When I give it more gas before it starts to die everything is normal.

As far as the cold start injector test? I already did that. I started it until it died (about a minute) and then unplugged it. Wouldn't start again.

The exhaust? Yeah. I get a little black smoke and quite a bit of black condensation. At least I did 4 days ago when I started it for the first time in a week. Enough to form a puddle about as big as a salad plate. I attribute it as well as the black smoke to just sitting though. Could be wrong.

I pulled my plugs and found them to be black with no moisture whatsoever (like a fouled plug). Matter of fact, I have a colored spark plug chart and I couldn't find one photo that matches my plugs. Didn't see anything that was all black and dry. As I said, the car runs beautifully until it does when it's warming up. I'm of the impression that it wouldn't run as good as it does with fouled plugs. Again, could be wrong. Could be more to it than that. I'm not an expert.

TY for the time you've put in on this.
 
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Old 12-12-09, 05:36 PM
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When you did the cold start injector disconnect, you would want to have run it just a minute, then shut it off before it died. If it was flooding it would have flooded the engine when it died = no start.

The plugs you're describing could be coming from:

1. Flooded condition - wouldn't have to be wet, just the sooty black. That could be from the cold start injector or possibly from the potentiometer.

2. Weak ignition = faulty components or late timing.

3. Cam timing = timing chain = compression issues.

4. EGR stuck open or a vsv switching valve feeding it vacuum when it shouldn't.

5. Plugged exhaust (catalytic converter) (That does have the vacuum modulator on the EGR). You could test the back pressure with a cheap pressure tester at the bottom hookup to the modulator. That is the exhaust drive for the modulator.

6. Engine temp sensor (for the computer, not the gauge or the temp switch for the cold start) This would feed engine temp directly to the ECM to adjust the port injectors to the cylinders.

Since everything starts and runs well, then craps out, I would lean towards 1, 4, 5, or 6 above. It isn't a lack of fuel, I'm pretty sure based on your descriptions.

What I would do (and this is repeating some things) is:

Get a cheap vacuum/fuel pump tester and check the back pressure on the modulator port to the exhaust. It should read .5 psi running and 4 psi on a spike.

Pull the EGR valve and use a piece of pop can to make a block for the EGR valve. It doesn't have to look pretty, just block off the two ports between the valve and the intake and tighten the valve mounting bolts down. Then start the engine.

Once you get it started run it for about a minute, shut it off, and pull the temperature switch wire that feeds signal to the cold start injector.

Replace the engine temp sensor, as described. They run about $15.00.

That will narrow things down a lot for you.
 
  #23  
Old 12-14-09, 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted by marbobj View Post

When you did the cold start injector disconnect, you would want to have run it just a minute, then shut it off before it died. If it was flooding it would have flooded the engine when it died = no start.
So, are U saying that when I perform the cold engine start test the way U suggest, my car should or shouldn't start? If it starts again what does that mean? If it doesn't start again, what does that mean?




Originally Posted by marbobj View Post

The plugs you're describing could be coming from:

1. Flooded condition - wouldn't have to be wet, just the sooty black. That could be from the cold start injector or possibly from the potentiometer.
The plugs I told U about. They're not "sooty". Just dry black with no build-up. Their structural integrity looks to be perfect.

Other than dealing with current, I have no idea what a "potentiometer" is or where it would be. LOL!


Originally Posted by marbobj View Post

4. EGR stuck open or a vsv switching valve feeding it vacuum when it shouldn't.
Interesting.

Originally Posted by marbobj View Post

5. Plugged exhaust (catalytic converter) (That does have the vacuum modulator on the EGR). You could test the back pressure with a cheap pressure tester at the bottom hookup to the modulator. That is the exhaust drive for the modulator.
If need be, I'll get back to U on that one.

Originally Posted by marbobj View Post

6.Engine temp sensor...
That would also be called the "Thermal Sensor", right. Isn't it the unit that sits side by side of the "cold start time switch" in the very front of the engine, passenger side directly underneath the intake? Isn't it the switch on the left?

Hmmm. . .


Thanx again, marbobj.
 
  #24  
Old 12-15-09, 09:21 PM
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Answering some of your questions:

If the engine was in running condition when you shut it off by the ignition switch, it should start back up. You would simply have given it some warm up time, which is the purpose of running it for about a minute.

The plugs you're describing are an indication of a rich mixture or the EGR feeding too much exhaust into it and dropping the burn rate of the combustion = blacken plugs.

The potentiometer is what the air vane in the air intake drives. The air volume moves the vane and converts to electrical current to be read by the computer for fuel/air mixture.

It is a thermal sensor, but is typically referred as the engine temp sensor.
 
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