Sporadic car bucking issue unresolved since mid-May!

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  #41  
Old 08-28-10, 03:47 PM
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Today it pulsate bucked for first time!

Hmmm. Now I DO wonder if it is fuel related. Every 1/10th second it went from engine on to engine off, shaking my head silly in the car, for a number of blocks on the highway, before it stopped doing that - and has ran fine since, for the last 15 miles highway and city driving.

Nobody yet has given me a definitive answer that let's say if the coil stops sending out secondary voltage. [Remember I have no loss of primary voltage to the + or - on the coil), if the car will misfire or backfire. This is key to knowing what is wrong. If it is possible the car does not have to misfire or backfire (do not want to ruin my cat from a backfire, or else I would intentionally run engine while I pulled coil wire and plugged it back in as fast as I can, repeatedly, to see if I could duplicate the sensation.]

 
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  #42  
Old 08-28-10, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by ASE MASTER View Post
(Quote) I am leaning toward thinking there is some crud(rust scale or ?, water, object(a rag/paper toweling?), or disconnected sock in the tank - and gathers at the pickup or at the entrance top the nearby inline filter. And the reason the engine does not choke off and die, nor 'starve out' when accellerating, is this crud or object moves around.

ecman51 (Curious George) LOL

I’ve been saying this from the beginning. The “bucking” is a result of fuel flow, psi, and fuel volume being compromised. Any of you’re above mentioned could be the cause. First would be severely clogged “Fuel Filter”. Second would be a “Sock Screen” issue. Don’t dismiss a failing fuel pump either. After all, what is an electric fuel pump? It’s nothing more than a “Self Priming Pump” that’s energized via a 12 volt motor. Well, that motor has an armature. If the armature is failing it will heat up and “Arch”. When that happens the pump can’t pump adequate fuel volume and maintain proper psi values. At that point “THE ENGINE IS STARVING FOR FUEL” so it “bucks”.


Speak to a doctor. Maybe dropping a few “Flomax” pills in the fuel tank will help.(LOL)
In your 66 years have you ever heard of an electric fuel pump 'going out' for 3 months, without totally going out by then? Nor getting progressively worse?

My other 91 Spirit (current one is 92) fuel pump went out like - well, when it went out the car died, then only restarted after I let it sit for 20 minutes, then drove it a few miles and it died again. No bucking. No prolonged ongoing symptom.

I would never guess a severely clogged fuel pump if the problem was not constant. My car has quarter mile blazing speed, for the most part, including going up hills.

The puzzle I have going here would make for an interesting mechanic contest.
 
  #43  
Old 09-15-10, 04:31 PM
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Now I'm leaning towards a bad gas related electrical connection

Why? Ever since I experienced that severe bucking (I call it 'bucking', rather than 'surging', per Haynes troubleshooting guide, due to the extreme behavior of it) that went from full throttle to fully shutdown, back to full throttle, back to fully shut down - each occurance lasting about 1/2 second each. I feel that is too short a duration to be anything other than a disconnect/reconnect problem. It does not behave like the gas slowly starves out then slowly comes back on again. It is quick, extreme, abrupt.

I sat on the edge of my bed when I woke up about 4 am, and poured through my Haynes and Mitchell's wiring schematics. I'm getting at my ropes end with this issue, and feel I must start putting forth more effort.

I am thinking there might be a good chance the problem is in a jack connector. My Haynes manual even lists that as one of 4 likely causes for 'steady gas pedal' surging. I have to go back to the library or Dodge dealership though and get my hands on a 92 schematic. My 91 is not quite correct with the color codes for the wires - not at my auto shutdown relay nor with the number wires per jack for the injectors harness connector. My Mitchell's shows only a 4-wire connector, in 2 seperate places - and yet I have a 7-wire connector where the fuel injectors harness then breaks down into the individual wires to each fuel injector.

All the jacks that look to be involved, between the auto shutdown relay, and at the intake manifold, have that black,dirty, grimey, oily grease, on these connections! Maybe current is - one split second following the correct path through the jack and to the injectors, and the next fraction of a split second, following some path to ground, etc.

How would you go about cleaning off that black grime? Many of these jacks are almost inaccessible. You can see them, but they are under things, and you can barely get at them. I was thinking about a two-part procedure of first spraying them with an engine degreaser, let set, then use spray bottle of water on them to flush, then let it try to dry overnight, then next morning spray them with say electronic cleaner, or maybe even just silicone spray(it is non-conductive and will not bleed current to ground, and shouldn't be harmfull to plastics or rubber coatings).
 
  #44  
Old 09-15-10, 10:27 PM
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That's what I do to clean...

I call it "spray and pray" (spray clean and pray that everything still works after cleaning! )

I don't like doing that though.
 
  #45  
Old 09-16-10, 03:58 PM
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Bill, years ago when I had my first car - my precious baby - I'd take the car to one of those DIY car washes and raise the hood, blast the engine with engine degreaser, hose it off, and cross my fingers it start. I can't remember for sure if I knew about the WD-40, or equivalent trick, back then or not.
 
  #46  
Old 09-17-10, 03:25 PM
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Got wiring diagram at Dodge minutes ago

I found the 7-wire jack connector on the new diagram. Yeh! Since 6 wires leave the jack, individually, and the 7th wire is pigtailed from each injector, with the one wire from the pigtail going to the jack connector - that be the return(ground path) wire, I'd presume?

A theory that would make sense is if the ground path is disrupted. That would effect all 6 injectors at once, and that is the symptom of what I have - the sudden loss of all gas, I believe, at all injectors. If the ground path isn't it, let's say, then what's the odds that the SBEC (single board engine controller) is stopping it's signal for each injector? In other words, it seems the odds to be much less likely that several bad electrical connections in the SBEC, or even at that jack would be failing at the same time.

What is it that tells the SBEC to tell the injectors to pulse at the right time? - The signal into the SBEC from the distributor? (If so, keep in mind that the voltmeter I have rigged at the + or - coil terminals (I have done it each way) never shows any disruption in voltage there, when the car acts up.

My thanks to the friendly young lady at the parts dept. at Dodge who went upstairs and rooted through the old books, and after I reviewed the pages, she photocopied them for me, for free.
 
  #47  
Old 09-17-10, 03:59 PM
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The wire common to the 6 injectors is (+) , not ground. It is also , By the way, Common to Ignition coil and fuel pump. It is called "ASD FEED"...On the diagrams, I believe it was DkGrn/Blk, and labeled Z1 Feed.

However, I seriously doubt this is where your problem lies. I would steer towards Fuel Delivery as well, But for a different reason, and with a Bit of a TWIST...

Unplug the MAP electrical connector and drive the car. Does it still buck? I know, it will run like trash, but does it still buck.?

Reason Being.....5volt reference feed to sensor, from SBEC. If the sense line were to short to ground, It would "Lock -Up" sbec momentarily, and can cause a BUCKING. If the sensor were to short internally, then bringing it in or out of Vacuum range, will cause the process all over again.unplugging the sensor , eliminates it , or Verifies it, as a culprit.
 
  #48  
Old 09-17-10, 04:20 PM
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Well, for me to find out anything conclusively, I have to drive the car often for many miles sometimes. Sometimes it starts in within 2 miles of home. Other times it is okay for say a days 60 miles of driving!

Can you tell me quick where that MAP sensor is?, and what it kind of looks like so I do not have to root through all the engine types in my Haynes manual?

Also note I have no emissions code or anything - no check engine light either (and it works) come on?

And why do they have the common wires spliced?, then have 5 or 6 individual (return?)wires running back to the SBEC? What is the sense of that? But thanks for that heads up. Maybe this will lead to a discovery.

Oh, and the parts girl also said she to has never heard of a car taking 4 months for a fuel pump to go down. She has worked there for 15 years she said.

Just went out to the car dash where I set the wiring diagram = 16DB/O. DB is what? Blue? I saw on other wires that were marked BR and BK, so those would be brown and black. O is obviously orange. The 16 obviously is the gauge, the rerturn-path wires are 18 gauge.

Knowing what I now know, at least in theory, I should be able to tap between jack and multipoint feed- splice to see if the volts flutter when the car acts up. I'll simply unplug my voltmeter hookup I did at the coil, and transfer it to that 16 DB/O wire, in parallel.
 

Last edited by ecman51; 09-17-10 at 04:36 PM. Reason: added lots more over time
  #49  
Old 09-17-10, 04:59 PM
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DB/O = Dark blue with orange tracer , I believe it should be something like this , if memory serves..... J2 14 DB/O - (J) Ckt group ,(2) Ckt Designation, (14) Wire gauge , (DB) Primary color , (O) tracer color. J would be ignition Feed, 2 would be Ckt branch -off Number.

All six injectors are fed 12 volts, the remaining six wiresrun back to SBEC, which is how he "Sequentially Fires" the injectors, They all share a positive, and the grounds are used to operate each individually .

Think of your living room, you have six can lights on the ceiling, each has its own switch, and they are all fed off the same breaker..That same breaker also feeds your bedroom outlet, and the ceiling fan.
Now consider Sbec as a six gang switch box...
 
  #50  
Old 09-17-10, 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Unclediezel View Post
Think of your living room, you have six can lights on the ceiling, each has its own switch, and they are all fed off the same breaker..That same breaker also feeds your bedroom outlet, and the ceiling fan.
Now consider Sbec as a six gang switch box...
But in your example, all are switched off the positive. But I understand what you are saying. They chose to switch the ground. Same result. A switch in a loop is a switch.

Do you remember off hand where the MAP is? If not, I will find it in my Haynes manual, hopefully.
 
  #51  
Old 09-17-10, 06:05 PM
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Its the little black box next to the Throttle body, 3wire connector for electrical, and a vacuum hose into the bottom of it. about 2" x 3" rectangle.
 
  #52  
Old 09-17-10, 06:46 PM
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Thanks. .................................
 
  #53  
Old 09-17-10, 06:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Unclediezel View Post
Unplug the MAP electrical connector and drive the car. Does it still buck? I know, it will run like trash, but does it still buck.?
If it runs like trash, about how long should I leave it unplugged while I try this experiment, so I do not trash the engine?
 
  #54  
Old 09-17-10, 07:02 PM
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It wont hurt anything.... Just plug it back in when youre done and drive it for a few more minutes, to clear it out.
 
  #55  
Old 09-18-10, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Unclediezel View Post
Reason Being.....5volt reference feed to sensor, from SBEC. If the sense line were to short to ground, It would "Lock -Up" sbec momentarily, and can cause a BUCKING. If the sensor were to short internally, then bringing it in or out of Vacuum range, will cause the process all over again.unplugging the sensor , eliminates it , or Verifies it, as a culprit.
Does this test, if the bucking say were to stop when you unplug the wires to the MAP sensor and it runs like trash, yet no bucking, prove the SBEC is faulty?

Here is my problem though: Take this morning. I unplugged it while idling. Yep, it ran like trash. Ran like the engine was out of balance. Okay, I could have driven it this morning this way, but didn't. Here is my problem with this. Often I do not get that hard-core bucking. Only subtle partial starvation of fuel feel I can sense with my foot on the gas pedal while cruising. If the engine is running the way it was this morning with the MAP disconnected, I'm afraid I would not even notice if the car was trying to starve out, because the lousy running engine would probably mask it. The only way I would probably know is if the car really bucked badly. Well, 20 miles of cruising down the road this morning, it did not buck, per say!

This is the kind of non-sense I have had to deal with for all these months, and why it did not show up for the mechanic who drove the car many miles and charged me $60, and it never did it for him.

I'm using my bosses computer right now while he is at the Wisconsin -Arizona State game down in Madison, and my car is parked right outside. In a bit I am going to go out there, plank the rear of the car up in the air and try to really check out the feed and grounding of the fuel pump. I did notice, when I bought the car this last March, and the car sat higher in the air because I did not have 700 lbs. of supplies in the car, , that that 24 inch round area that the fuel pump mounts to was real rusty. But here is my problem with any theory of something being amiss down THERE: Why is not the problem getting steadily worse, say if there is a rusting connection? It really isn't - I don't think.

Aslo note that my battery-to-body ground is good and not corroded at either end, so you'd think that if the fuel pump ground is good, then the whole ground circuit to the battery would be good, and this would not be the issue either. Only if the actual connection down there by the fuel pump mount were bad. The infamous $60 mechanic said he had it up on the lift and saw nothing amiss, but I'd like to see for myself.
It has been doing this same either subtle, or severe bucking, on and off, for 4 months.

On my car repair radio show this morning, host Sam (not ASE Sam) said to a caller who called in with a fuel pump question where a mechanic has repalced his fuel pump 3 or 4 times, that there is a baffle in many fuel tanks, to cut down on fuel sloshing, and he has seen them come detached and go up aginst the fuel pump sock, along with more rust/debris that can show up in a vehicle that is about 20 years old. So I still wonder if something is rattling around down in that area, choking down the fuel volume, not in any steady state, but rather something moving around enough to cause full pressure/volume one second and not enough volume/pressure to have it spray out the injectors sufficiently all the time.

But it can't be something permanently plugging up the fuel filter, fuel sock or line, because when it starves badly and the speedometer starts dropping, I can floor the car and there will be say this starving delay of no throttle response, for 2 seconds, and then VAROOM, it takes off again like a bat out of H as if nothing at all is wrong with the car once again! Devilish! Then just fractions of or full seconds later, back to the same thing, etc., etc., for a while. Then may run pretty normal for the next 8 miles or so until I get to where I had to go and park the car.

And, unfortunately, any test done at idle will not show anything because the car runs fine then. As I said, it often starts in, at least a little bit, down the highway a couple miles, but is very sporadic. It may or may not lead to sporadic actual what I call bucking. Other times it is very subtle starvation that pulses back and forth between from starve to good running to starve, to good running, all within split seconds of each other, like someone is plugging and unplugging a key fuel wire. No rough running engine or misfire when this happens, nor any smoke coming out the rear.

I spent a lot of time this morning under the hood identifying the wire and where I could attempt to most easily cut into the 16 gauge feed wire. I am giving this matter more thought. The only easy place to cut it is before the injector's 7-wire connector. And if i cut it there, I guess that could not show me if the jack connector itself were faulty - only if the feed coming from the SBEC is faulty somehow. Also I do not know how a digital voltmeter will behave with possible pulsing of this circuit. But on the distributor circuit(where I currently have my voltmeter hooked up), the pulsing signal there does not affect the reading, so.....maybe I will cut into and parallel tap it and see.
 
  #56  
Old 09-18-10, 12:32 PM
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check the wire that goes from the crank shaft sensor to the dist. they have been known to fail and cause a buck that will break gears and whip cam chains. I personally think it is electrical to be that violent.
 
  #57  
Old 09-18-10, 02:46 PM
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My car don't have that. Distributor and single coil.
 
  #58  
Old 09-18-10, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by ecman51` View Post
I'm using my bosses computer right now while he is at the Wisconsin -Arizona State game down in Madison, and my car is parked right outside. In a bit I am going to go out there, plank the rear of the car up in the air and try to really check out the feed and grounding of the fuel pump.
No bag of wind. I did that very thing. Saw nothing out of the ordinary. Looks new under there. Was too hard, plus I was not bold enough, to try to wrangle my hand up through an opening to try to unplug and replug in the fuel pump jack, in case something went awry while I am away from home. The wires and gas lines look really nice under there. My car has very little rust anywhere. I also reinspected the main engine wiring harnesses and connectors and tried moving things a little and found I can easily move the wires - that they are not brittle the way wires can sometimes become on a car of my age.

Unc,

if you read any of this, I discovered what looks to be a second engine controller under the hood! One is right next to the battery on the left fender. The other is mounted on the curve of the wheelwell metal, closer to the engine. Each of these has a huge bundle of wires coming out. I know the engine has an SBEC, but what is the other one then? Since a SINGLE board engine controller, I figured there was only ONE.
 
  #59  
Old 09-19-10, 01:23 PM
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ecman51,

(Quote) Hmmm. Now I DO wonder if it is fuel related.

Been down this road with you before. At this point just going in circles. Before becoming a mechanic with 66 years experience, I became a U.S. Marine. Many things have been said about us. Only thing that has remained relevant and constant over the decades is “Semper Fidelis”. Save you the google search. Means “Always Loyal”.

We’re that rare group of individuals, who get right into your face, look you straight in the eye, never flinch, or blink, and always speak the truth. So here is the truth, in true U.S. Marine Corps” style.

You’re looking for a “Platinum” bullet here. You want one of us to take you by the hand and say; “yes, change exactly this part”, it will cost you exactly $32.19, and that will be the end of your “Bucking” problem. Doesn’t work that way guy. Like saying to a doctor; “Look doc I don’t feel well, but I don’t want you to waste my time or money with “tests”, just tell me what is wrong with me, and why I don’t feel well.

I’m not the only pro on this forum. All the pro’s here have spoken. At this point, anything else we could possibly add would only be repetitious. You forget that we’re doing online auto repair here. We don’t have your Dodge in front of us. If we did, it would have been fixed a long time ago. Your bucking problem has been going on for months? Well you can expect it to go on for years if we don’t start seeing some answers from you.

Let’s start with something simple and basic. Fuel pressure and volume.

Attach a fuel pressure gauge to the rail.

Drive with the gauge attached.

Post the psi values when the car starts to buck.

Note: that regardless of engine load psi values must remain the same.

Christ how many times do I have to repeat my self?
 
  #60  
Old 09-19-10, 02:17 PM
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I haven't been able to find a hook-up on either rail. And if it's there, they must have buried it. (That is what I have about these kinds of car today)

I am indeed hoping for someone to say, yes, it is that $32 part. I do that all the time for people here and in real life, and I'm right way more often than not.

It hasn't bucked ever since I fiddled with wires and got on my back and sprayed penetrating oil all over the fuel pump area, yesterday afternoon. That includes 20 miles yesterday and about 25 more today so far. But only time will tell, as this might just be a lull again before the storm.

I am thinking either something loose around in tank/pump area blocking the flow, then letting go once it starts to choke out, or bad fuel pump ground(corrosion or oxidation), or grimed up jack connectors, or bad fuel pump relay, or possible bad ASD only affecting output to fuel (not coil),or bad TPS. And hoping it's not in the SBEC.

I would hook up a meter to fuel pump wire but I can barely get my hand up over the axle and touch the wires at that jack, let alone try to grab it and disconnect it. I was too afraid to even try yesterday, thinking if I bent a pin or something and could not get it back on, then I'd be SOL. Bucking would then be the least of my problems.

I'll keep you all updated.
 
  #61  
Old 09-19-10, 03:51 PM
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(Quote) I'll keep you all updated.

Please do, because many of us won't be able to sleep at night. In some cases, some of us may slit our wrists, over the concern of your Dodge.

Want this issue resolved soon?

Drop the the fuel tank and clean it out.
Blow out the fuel lines.
Change the fuel filter.
Post the results of a "Fuel Pump volume Test"
Rule out a "Sock Screen" issue at the fuel pump.

Don't tell me. Let me guess. Any minute now you'll be posting all the reasons why you can't rule out any of the above.

So if you can't rule out anything, how do you expect us to help you?

Why are you so surprised you've had this issue for months?

What steps have you taken to resolve this problem?

Feedback
Feedback
Feedback

Is necessary if you want this "Bucking" issue to go away.

BTW.
Last post
I'm done with you Mrs (Miss)

More individuals on this forum are worthy of my skills than you.
 
  #62  
Old 09-19-10, 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by ASE MASTER View Post
(Quote) I'll keep you all updated.

Please do, because many of us won't be able to sleep at night. In some cases, some of us may slit our wrists, over the concern of your Dodge.

Want this issue resolved soon?

Drop the the fuel tank and clean it out.
Blow out the fuel lines.
Change the fuel filter.
Post the results of a "Fuel Pump volume Test"
Rule out a "Sock Screen" issue at the fuel pump.

Don't tell me. Let me guess. Any minute now you'll be posting all the reasons why you can't rule out any of the above.

So if you can't rule out anything, how do you expect us to help you?

Why are you so surprised you've had this issue for months?

What steps have you taken to resolve this problem?

Feedback
Feedback
Feedback

Is necessary if you want this "Bucking" issue to go away.

BTW.
Last post
I'm done with you Mrs (Miss)

More individuals on this forum are worthy of my skills than you.
Why would I first want to drop the tank and maybe blow myself to kingdom come, if say I had some simple problem.

And if I took my car to any service garage and found out I owed them hundreds of dollar for doing this, and then it turned out to be a faulty ground coming off a $15 relay or something, I would not be amused.

And the reason I have put up with my problem for this long is the car keeps running. Otherwise I'm sure I would have made more of this, sooner, than I have.
 
  #63  
Old 09-19-10, 05:25 PM
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You STILL going on with this issue!?!

Come with something new to talk about.
 
  #64  
Old 09-20-10, 05:12 PM
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I'll let you all know if I get it figured out, and/or if the problem stays gone since my last fiddling (oddly the car hasn't bucked since - yet).

At a national auto parts chain store - when I ran it by a pretty knowledgable guy Saturday, he said I shoud pull the MAP vacuum line to see if it had gas in it (should not have any). I checked. Nope.

I see this is getting more than one person rankled here, so I wil only post if the problem appears gone, or if there are any new revelations.
 
  #65  
Old 09-23-10, 02:58 PM
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Think ETHANOL

Just a thought. The government gave us Ethanol and it is ruining a lot of four cycle and especially two cycle engines. Ethanol sucks moisture right out of the atmosphere. It gets in the gas tank and along with other "stuff" creates sludge in the gas tank. You mentioned putting additives in the fuel which can, in fact, make matters worse. It can actually form a "jel" of sludge of molecules of gas, water, bacteria, and oxidational solids. One thing you might give a go is----go to a marine store (ie West Marine) and get a bottle of "Startron Fuel Tank Cleaner". It is kind of costly--pour it in the gas tank--don't drive car for at least 24 hr. (I usually wait longer). Run the car normally using up most of the fuel before you re-fill tank. One warning, have an extra fuel filter available 'cause the "gunk" that comes out of the tank can clog a filter. I use the cleaner in all of my boats and automobiles--has worked great.
 
  #66  
Old 09-23-10, 03:52 PM
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I wonder if that stuff can harm a fuel pump or anything else downstream of the gas tank.

Remember that I started adding additives BECAUSE of the bucking. The bucking issue was already there first.

There seems like there MAY be a relationship with rain. I have been paying attention to this now for quite a while. The car has ran perfect about the last 2 12/ days as it has been raining constantly. I have to review my entire diary to see if there is a possible association with rain making it good. If there is, it almost have to be an electrical/connection issue, where moisture helps steer the electricity through the wire rather than select a different path via road grime or something.

But I will let you all know what I come up with, as I said in previous post, after more time has passed, and if I have learned anything truly conclusive.
 
  #67  
Old 09-24-10, 05:50 AM
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Fuel Tank Cleaner

Read the instructions on the Startron product. It is an Enzyme and destroys bacteria along with encapsulating other contaminates. In addition, overdosing is not harmful. Test, put some Ethanol based fuel, which is clear in color, wait a month or so--the color will darken and if left long enough it will discolor to a deep red. That is bacteria which thrives in water. Add some of the aforementioned fuel cleaner and watch as the fuel clears up.
 
  #68  
Old 09-24-10, 03:14 PM
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By ethanol based fuel, do you mean the fuel that has 10% ethanol?
 
  #69  
Old 09-25-10, 10:46 AM
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Ethanol

ecman51:

Yes sir. Be advised that the expert mechanics located in Washington DC that collectively are know as the Congress want to increase Ethanol in your fuel to 15%. If they succeed, sell your two cycle gasoline engines and maybe some of your older automobiles, trucks, and anything else that uses gasoline for fuel.
 
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Old 09-25-10, 12:12 PM
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So then - how does bacteria grow when mixed with 90% gas?

BTW -car bucked severly during cool rainstorm. Back to square one.

My problem is I do not know enough about the behavior of gas part of the equation and the "fire" part of the equation, in these newer computer cars. If this was a non-computer carbed car, I would have figured it out by now.

I do not know, for example, if say the coil were the culprit, (if the coil acted sporadically), if the injectors would continue to dump fuel in cylinders, and if then when the coil finally fired off, if there absolutely, conclusively, would be a backfire?, or misfires while this occured?, or if somehow instead the computer would "know" that the coil was not firing, and stop the injectors/fuel?, and/or if black smoke would come out and be noticeable in the rearview mirror, with a multi-port fuel injected car, that had the coil intermittently go out?

If I had these answers, then I could eliminate or point a finger at the secondary windings of the coil. (Primary windings is good, hence ignition switch is also good, or any connections up to the coil or between coil and distributor, because I have had a voltmeter both on the + and - of the coil, while driving, and there is not one glitch in the volt reading, when it even bucks severely! But I am not 100% sure if the voltmeter testing at the primary windings would show any disruptive pattern on the meter if the secondary did not fire off. I kind of think it would though, because of the distributor alternatively sending current either directly to ground or allowing the current to build up in the secondary to send ground current to the spark plugs. But since I do not know for sure, I do not know if my voltmeter would go momentarily blank or quiver readings.

Also regarding what I do not know about the gas behavior in these newer cars that require high fuel pressure for the injectors to work right, say in the 40-50 psi range: Since the car SUDDENLY can go from being completely off to fuel throttle within 1/2 second of each other, that clue right there begs the question as to if anything down by the fuel pump/tank/fuel filter/lines could cause that, WITHOUT the car first stumbling out of gas, and then stumbling slowly back to full pedal response again. But no, my car goes instantly from off to on, so it shakes the car and me. It is violent. It crashes the transmission gears and shakes me forward and back, it is so sudden and violent. You would think that debris in the tank would relatively slowly choke off the gas. But once again, I am not sure. Maybe the fact the injectors will work only when they reach a certain high enough psi?, that it could cause the injectors to only release gas at the instant the psi were at a certain point.

If I were a professional mechanic, I would have to learn the answer to the several questions I have raised here today, otherwise I'd feel I'd be wasting customers money by making too many wild guesses including even unnecessary testing. Like as an example, when I got to a rental of mine, whose high efficient furnace went down, last night, I was able to instantly diagnose the failure because of the knowledge I have.
 
  #71  
Old 09-26-10, 02:47 AM
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Ethanol

Same way it grows in Diesel, however, go ahead and pursue your electrical fault theory.
 
  #72  
Old 09-26-10, 04:27 AM
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Change Plugs and Wires?

You may have already addressed this, and I missed it in this long thread, but it sounds like a similar problem I had with my 1998 Dodge PU. It would buck and jerk at different times. It would seem to get worse when rounding a curve. I piddled around with it but couldn't seem to find the problem. I really kind of figured it was trash or water in the fuel tank hitting the fuel pick up at the right time to cause it. I finnally broke down and changed the spark plugs. It ran perfect for a while. About 3 months later it was back to it's old problem. This time I changed the wires. Fixed again.so far so good.

My guess is runding the turns would move the wire just enough to ground it out. The wires looked fine to me but apparently they werent.
 
  #73  
Old 09-26-10, 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by jmwdiy View Post
You may have already addressed this, and I missed it in this long thread, but it sounds like a similar problem I had with my 1998 Dodge PU. .
My car goes out suddenly on all cylinders and as suddenly comes back on, with no misfire. Since you THINK it was your plug wires, didn't you feel the car was running on at least some cylinders?
 
  #74  
Old 09-26-10, 04:03 PM
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Yes it was running on at least some. Only one has to miss to cause the buck in my truck. Your problem does sound like some kind of short though. I assume you have already tried to wiggle wires under the hood while it was runing to clear this problem. Other than that, my idea is done.
 
  #75  
Old 09-27-10, 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by jmwdiy View Post
Yes it was running on at least some. Only one has to miss to cause the buck in my truck. Your problem does sound like some kind of short though. I assume you have already tried to wiggle wires under the hood while it was runing to clear this problem. Other than that, my idea is done.
It runs fine when idling. Only once in 4+ months has it shut off after I started it up. So wiggling will not learn me anything on the spot.
 
  #76  
Old 09-29-10, 07:06 AM
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VERY important - need to know symptom if fuel cut off..........

....at the tank area, or if the injectors shut the fuel off. Can the car suddenly shut off, and then reactivate, all within 1/2 second of each other, without misfire at any cylinder even?, if fuel is cut off for any reason at the tank, or CAN it?, based on the fact that the electric fuel pump can so quickly recharge the fuel line? Or is this doubtful that the car would not at least more slowly shut down, and then stumble back up to speed?

I HAVE to know the answer to this!

And every good mechanic really needs to know also, so unnecessary searching for the fuel starvation problem(if that is even what it is) is not performed. CAN my car, or CAN'T it, suddenly act as if the key is shut completely off, where flooring the throttle does NO good, and 1/2 second later, the car reengages so suddenly, that I almost get whiplash(no misfire).......if the problem occurs way back down at the tank area, such a bad fuel pump, bad jack connector, pinched sock, debris in tank then on sock and/or filter, bad fuel pump ground etc. ? Or, could this ONLY happen if the fuel line stays fully charged and the injectors all suddenly shut off?

If I have the answer to this, I know then where to concentrate, or not concentrate my efforts.

BTW - now the car, since filling the tank with gas SUPER slowly and fiddling,with jackconnector and wires under the hood, and removing the coilwire and repostioning it slightly, and spraying penetrating oil all over the fuel tank/pump area - has not went into any massive bucking episodes, since then, several days ago - but will stumble sometimes twice in a few seconds time frame, after driving for maybe 3-5 miles, and then it is good for the rest of the day, while driving all over the place! This has really been quite the fun mental excercize!
 
  #77  
Old 10-04-10, 06:54 AM
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Update - maybe discovered a relationship

Have noticed no stumbling when on highway for 10 straight miles, then shut off car, get coffee, come back out, and engine feels........gas pedal feels..... like there just isn't enough gas there, and stumbles a little for a while (like REAL mild bucking).

I am going to more frequently create this situation of driving, stop for a bit, then go again - to see if this is simply coincidence or not. (Did it for sure, last 2 days in a row) If it does it, thsi may indicate that since engine gets hotter for a bit, after you shut it off, this may have something to do with it.
 
  #78  
Old 11-03-10, 05:37 PM
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Car apparently fixed itself

Or at least me not knowing which of the things I did to fix it. Or if it wasn't me at all, and is something in the module.

It hasn't bucked nor surged for weeks now. Not even in the slightest. It went from full blown whiplash (and now has caused clunk damage to something in transmission or motor mount ) - it was that bad of bucking - to now, nothing at all!

I removed out-of-round tire that was causing vibratious ride at times.

I poured in bottles of injector cleaner and fuel moisture remover at up to 8:1 or so recommended dosage.

I sprayed anti-rust lube sprays at the fuel pump area, connections down there, and maybe in area where pump ground might be.

I jiggled two harness connectors under the hood that are main harness for injectors.

I removed the coil wire, ohms tested it (good) and reinstalled.

....................................................................................

Even after all these procedures, the car gradually fixed itself. BUT - It was not as if when I hit on any one listed procedure, it was instantyly cured for good, either. It simply got better and better. It went from horrific bucking, to only a sensation that the pedal response as not always fully there, to where it now runs perfect. (Knock on wood.)
 
  #79  
Old 11-04-10, 04:22 AM
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Glad to hear it ecman. Hope it stays fixed for you. However from the beginning I’ve maintained that the issue was due to a problem that was compromising fuel flow and volume. Based on your description of the issue, it could only be caused by the compromising of spark or fuel.

A spark issue wouldn’t fix itself. It would only get worse eventually fail, and you would lose spark altogether.

The fact that the problem seems to have fixed itself, tells me that the sock screen at the fuel pump broke off or fell off and is no longer compromising fuel flow.
 
  #80  
Old 11-04-10, 08:28 AM
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Stalling

This wont help solve the problem but may shed some light on plug problems. I tuned this car up and the owner drove it for about a week then he went to start it and nothing. I went thru everything and finally changed the plugs and it started. I contacted my supplier and champion sent an engineer to my place. His explaination was that the vehicle had went past time for a tune up and the temps in the combustion chamber had dropped causing carbon to build up. When it was tuned the temps rose causing the carbon to "splash foul " the plugs. To convince myself I cleaned the plugs and put them in my vehicle and they performed perfectly for the rest of their life. This could explain the early failure and correction by replacing the plugs.
 
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