Sporadic car bucking issue unresolved since mid-May!

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  #1  
Old 08-13-10, 05:15 PM
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Sporadic car bucking issue unresolved since mid-May!

92 Dodge Spirit 6-cyl with about 145,000.

Fuel pump? Ever hear of something like this acting this way though for months?, and never completely quitting?, to where you have to restart it. Never have had to do that yet.

I have gone like a whole week and not have it act up, although I wonder if this other sensation of having a slight drag on the car(like when the compressor clutch kicks in) is the same problem except with enough fuel pressure that it don't outright 'buck'?

The bucking can be so violent the gears slam when the car shuts off then starts up again in a split second, while cruising down the road. (Note that rapid accelerating or going up a hill accelerating does NOT make the problem worse. It does it willy nilly.......whenever, wherever, under all weather conditions.

Never ever misfires or backfires. Believe it is fuel and not secondary electrical. Although it could be primary electrical if say shutting down the fuel pump.

I rigged up a voltmeter in the cabin out to both the positive and negative coil terminals, and as it bucks the voltage holds steady, so I know conclusively there is no primary electrical issue before the coil.

I'm thinking about rigging up wire to hot wire going to fuel pump.

Problem only occurs after driving it for a while. Did not do it the day I took it to shop last May, and it cost me $60 for no diagnosis, nor any testing whatsover. They drove it for like 25 miles and it never did it to even the owner who took the car home with him, even out on the interstate. I'm not playing any more Russian roulette with my money like this. I may as well have burned the $60 with a match!

Have a hard time believing anything down in tank like water or a rag could so thoroughly choke off a big fuel intake 'sock'. Although I have theorized maybe the sock fell off or was blown off. If that were the case, then maybe. Anything could have gotten plugged by rust scale or who knows what else. I have dumped about 4 bottles so far of water/condensation remover/fuel-injection cleaner down in tank, to no avail.

Can a lighted camera go down the filler tube into the tank without exploding. Probably not, eh?

Mechanic could have replaced fuel filter but I told him no, as I figured based on syptom that since more speed does NOT choke off the fuel more - I did not want to shotgun this. $60 here, $75 there......forget it!

Mechanic supposedly put car up on hoist at my request to inspect wires at fuel pump and said he saw nothing obvious.

Hoping that a main control board that regulates the incoming fuel is not the issure, nor the fuel pump. Hoping it is anything but these two things.

Could a fuel regulator for multiport injection cause a symptom like this?

Have you ever seen this before, and if so, what was the cause? And keep in mind it has been doing this for months, on and off again - but fairly often.
 
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  #2  
Old 08-13-10, 06:12 PM
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That is what I call an intermittent problem...

...and for intermittent problems, I take DRASTIC testing measures...

That is to catch it in the act!

I would want to monitor things as I drove so I could "see" what was going on for various systems. (Just test one thing at a time...)

Perhaps rig a fuel pressure gauge inside the car or sticking out on the side of the car so you could see it through the windshield. Then next time it happens, was there a change in the fuel pressure? You could look and see! Then know that was the problem or was not the problem.

And fuel injectors. This would be somewhat advanced electronics work and I have never done this, but perhaps connect LED lights up to several of the fuel injectors with 700 ohm resistors in series. The short lead of the LED needs to go to - (minus). And have these LED's say on the dash right in front of your eyes so you can see them.

In theory, the LED's should flash or glow dimly as each fuel injector quickly turns on/off.

I don't know how fast a fuel injector turns on/off, but it is possible that they turn on/off too fast for the human eye to see the light blink? If they turn on/off many times a second, then you would not see them blink, rather you would see a dim glow.

I would try one LED to see if it worked. If not, perhaps there are "noid" lights for this or some other testing device which would allow you to "see" the fuel injectors working or stop working? That stuff gets to be expensive though.

Another thing you could do is rig up a timing light with the pick-up on one of the spark plug wires and tape the "trigger" on the timing light so it is on all the time. Then fasten it on top of the hood so it does not blind you. Then you would be able to see the engine getting spark and should be able to notice if it stopped getting spark.

And same with electrical gizmos and further troubleshooting. Maybe you suspect something is losing power? Connect wires to the power for that gizmo and run them inside the car through the passenger window or whatever works. Then connect them to an LED or light on the dash. Then you would be able to "see" if that gizmo was losing power when this happens.

Basically "monitor" different things until you "catch" the culprit.
 
  #3  
Old 08-13-10, 07:06 PM
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Hmmm..

This remark alone, "The bucking can be so violent the gears slam when the car shuts off", makes me wonder if it's the tranny...

Just a thought...
 
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Old 08-13-10, 07:25 PM
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This is a partial list of generic items that will cause bucking. There are many more items. Obliviously you’re going to disregard the items that don’t apply. Print out the list and show it to your mechanic. To the best of his abilities and yours, post what can be ruled out from the list, before I post the many remaining items.



Defective oxygen sensor
Defective catalytic converter
Fuel injectors dirty or sticking
Defective Mass Airflow Sensor or Airflow Meter
Defective Throttle Position Sensor
Defective Manifold Absolute Pressure Sensor
Defective EGR Valve
Clogged EGR passageways
Defective Fuel Pressure Regulator
Defective Fuel Pump
False air leakage
Fuel contamination
Fouled or defective spark plugs
Open (shorted) spark plug wires.
Defective Ignition coil, coil packs, or module
Incorrect ignition timing
Defective distributor cap (and or rotor)
Excessive exhaust back-pressure
Defective distributor
Defective pick-up coil
One or more vacuum leaks
Are there any error codes?
 
  #5  
Old 08-13-10, 08:49 PM
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I did some poking around. Search for the following words on google...

Fuel Injector Pulse Tester

...and you will find various testers. Some in the $30 range.

I also found out how long an injector is on...

"Injector pulsewidth typically ranges from 4 ms/engine-cycle at idle, to 35 ms per engine-cycle at wide-open throttle."
Fuel injection - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A millisecond is a thousandth 1/1,000 of a second - ms

-or-

0.001 [ thousandth ] millisecond [ ms ]

-or-

.035 second at wide open throttle.
 
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Old 08-14-10, 05:31 PM
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Bill, I have been so busy working fixing rentals I have no time for myself. Just got through working now. First post of the day.

The fuel pressure gauge idea I might just doing. But I doubt it is injectors, because the problem affects all cylinders. The car simply goes dead. I doubt it is high voltage issue coming and going because there is no misfire and no backfire when the car peps back up again. It is just as if someone releases the gas pedal, then floors it again, then releases it again, etc.
 
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Old 08-14-10, 05:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Stan DaMann View Post
This remark alone, "The bucking can be so violent the gears slam when the car shuts off", makes me wonder if it's the tranny...

Just a thought...
It's not the tranny. There is no slippage, then grab. If the car say lost it's 'lock up', causing it to slow down - then if you were holding the gas pedal steady, the rpm's should jump up, fi the tranny were the cause. But it don't do that. It acts more like you suddenly take your foot off the gas, then suddenly floor it.


There is no common denominator either that I have been able to finger, such as hot, cold, going up or down hills, accellerating or cruising or street driving, or going around corners, or heavy rain storms of 4 inches per hour(drove through that last night! -no problem). It can happen at all times, whenever.

Except, I believe it does not usually occur until I have first been driving a few miles, anyway. It is possible I suppose that it may be heat related. Today I noticed that the two electronic devices -the TPS and ? are only 3 and 5 inches respectively above the collector pipe after the exhaust manifold! Couple that with the heat under the hood and just maybe the heat is short circuiting the TPS and whatever else that device is above or below it where the linkage cables are at the entrance to the intake manifold.
 
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Old 08-14-10, 05:53 PM
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Like I said. The list I posted is a partial list of generic items that will cause bucking. There are many more items. Obliviously you’re going to disregard the items that don’t apply. Print out the list and show it to your mechanic. To the best of his abilities and yours, post what can be ruled out from the list, before I post the many remaining items.
 
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Old 08-14-10, 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by ASE MASTER View Post
This is a partial list of generic items that will cause bucking. There are many more items. Obliviously you’re going to disregard the items that don’t apply. Print out the list and show it to your mechanic. To the best of his abilities and yours, post what can be ruled out from the list, before I post the many remaining items.



Defective oxygen sensor
Defective catalytic converter
Fuel injectors dirty or sticking
Defective Mass Airflow Sensor or Airflow Meter
Defective Throttle Position Sensor
Defective Manifold Absolute Pressure Sensor
Defective EGR Valve
Clogged EGR passageways
Defective Fuel Pressure Regulator
Defective Fuel Pump
False air leakage
Fuel contamination
Fouled or defective spark plugs
Open (shorted) spark plug wires.
Defective Ignition coil, coil packs, or module
Incorrect ignition timing
Defective distributor cap (and or rotor)
Excessive exhaust back-pressure
Defective distributor
Defective pick-up coil
One or more vacuum leaks
Are there any error codes?
You are the mechanic. Can't you take some guesses?

Wouldn't you think in absense of a misfire and backfire, that we can eliminate anything secondary ignition related? Or primary with the coil?, since I have tested steady approx. 13 volts at + or - on coil even when the bucking occurs, with no flashing of the voltmeter of any sort. It holds steady as a rock.

Keep in mind it has been doing this for months, and not once does it ever totally quit out on the road(yet). Just when I think that is it, and the car is slowing, it jumps back to life and throws me back in the seat as if I put it in passing gear! And keep in mind I have dumped about 4 bottles of that condensate/water remover/fuel injector in gas tank in last month, to no avail.

Oh, and I'd really prefer not to take it to another mechanic whose clock is ticking while they are playing a game of saying, "Hmmm.......let me seeeee"...cha ching, cha ching, cha ching! No thanks. It would really be fun to at least figure it out myself (with you guys free help), then if need be use the mechanic to simply do the work of replacing something.
 

Last edited by ecman51; 08-14-10 at 06:02 PM. Reason: added more
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Old 08-14-10, 06:52 PM
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(Your Question) Can't you take some guesses?

Sorry, but I’m a pro and I never guess. Guessing wouldn’t be fair to my customers, and my customers would see “Guessing” as being extremely unprofessional. Let’s start slow and easy and rule out some of the basics first. Please take a moment to answer the following questions accurately. Thank you.

Have the spark plugs been changed recently?
Has the distributor cap and rotor been changed recently?
Have the ignition wires been changed recently?
Has the fuel filter been changed recently?
Have you tested the ignition coil?
Have you confirmed that the “Sock Screen” at the fuel pump is not collapsed or clogged?

Important: On your particular vehicle “OE” ignition and tune-up parts must be used. Never use “Champion or Spitfire” plugs or “Aftermarket” ignition wires. Using either of the mentioned is most likely causing your issue.

Auto Zone, Advance Auto Parts, and O’Reilly Auto Parts are stores that offer a “Free Loaner Tool Service”. There you can borrow a “Fuel Pressure Gauge” for “Free”. Get the gauge and attach it to the engines fuel rail. Now drive the car with the gauge attached. Note that regardless of the “Engine Load” fuel pressure psi should remain constant. In other words, when the car starts bucking, if you see fuel pressure psi values changing you know the bucking is due to a fuel delivery issue. Finally (for now) scan for error codes as per below. Post any codes you find.




ON-BOARD DIAGNOSTICS Dodge OBD1 Pre 96

1. Cycle the ignition key ON-OFF-ON-OFF-ON within 5 seconds. To cycle the ignition key ON means to turn it only as far as it takes to get the radio to come on. It does not mean to turn the engine on.

2. Count the number of times the "check engine" lamp on the instrument panel flashes on and off. The number of flashes represents the code. There is a slight pause between the flashes representing the first and second digits of the code. Longer pauses separate individual codes. For example, flash-flash-flash [pause] flash-flash represents the code 32.

A code of "55" represents end of error codes. If this is all you get then no error codes are stored in the computer. This is the normal condition

CODE Description of Trouble Code

11 Timing belt skipped 1 tooth or more from initial learned value, Intermittent loss of either camshaft or crankshaft position sensor, No crank reference signal detected during engine cranking

12 Direct battery input to PCM was disconnected within the last 50 key-on cycles (normal)

13 No change in MAP from start to run

14 MAP sensor voltage too low

15 No vehicle speed sensor signal

17 Closed loop temp not reached or engine cold too long

21 02s sensor problem (oxygen sensor), upstream or down stream

22 Engine coolant temp sensor out of range

23 Intake air temp sensor out of range

24 Throttle Position sensor out of range

25 Idle air control motor circuits, target idle not reached (+/- 200),vacuum leak found

27 Injector control circuit

31 Evap purge flow monitor failure or evap solenoid circuit

32 EGR system failure

33 A/C clutch relay circuit

34 Speed control Solenoid circuits

35 Rad Fan control relay circuit

37 Torque converter clutch solenoid CKT or park/neutral switch failure

41 Generator field not switching properly

42 Fuel pump relay control ckt, Auto shutdown relay control ckt, No ASD relay output voltage at PCM, Fuel level sending unit volts out of range, Fuel level unit No change over miles

43 Multiple/ single cylinder misfire

44 Battery temp sensor volts out of range

46 Charging system voltage too low

51 Fuel system lean

52 Fuel system rich

53 Internal control failure

54 No Cam signal at PCM

55 End of error messages (If you get this only, no errors were found)

62 PCM failure SRI mile not stored

63 PCM Failure EEPROM write denied

64 Catalytic Converter Efficiency Failure

65 Power steering switch failure
 
  #11  
Old 08-14-10, 07:48 PM
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just a thought, late '80's Cadillac had a problem with a bad wire on the pick-up coil in the distributor causing a similar intermittent problem. if I remember correctly you had to do a wiggle test while checking continuity through pick-up to test.
 
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Old 08-14-10, 08:29 PM
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Good thought towman501, and thank you for your input. Unfortunately that test doesn't apply to the said vehicle.
 
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Old 08-15-10, 08:04 AM
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Just to clarify/question, statement by ASE MASTER regarding Champion spark plugs & wires. Champion Spark plugs are recommended and should be the only plugs you run in most Chrysler products. (check tag on underside of hood or rad support) Yes I do agree that you stick with OEM wires, cap etc, and you'll probably find the price isn't much different than aftermarket. I've seen many Chrysler products over the years, that just won't run properly with any other plug than Champions. Guy next door may get away with it, but next guy won't and vehicles could be identical. Stick to Champions only, just to eliminate that possibility. Not that long ago, had a lady who tuned up her own Caravan, and was assured that Bosch Plugs sold to her at the Autoparts store were good to use, and she was also told by a few different mechanics that it can't be them causing the spitting and sputtering. After eliminating a few other possibilities quickly, I had her take the Bosch plugs out, and return them for the proper Champion Plugs, even though she was still a little hesitant I think, she did as I told her, and next day reported back to tell me although everyone else told her it couldn't be the problem and she was waisting her time, her Caravan was now running like a dream, problem cured.
That said, I really wouldn't rule out that TP sensor either, but you can test that with an analog ohmmeter. Remove the connector, find 2 terminals on TP sensor that needle of meter moves in conjunction with throttle movement, and move throttle slow and smoothly full open, and slowly back, and watch needle closely on meter. If you see any sudden jump, or drop, or hesitation in needle movement, change it. Don't be afraid to try it a few times, as you are working with something intermittent here, so it may take quite a few tries to catch it, if that's the culprit.
 
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Old 08-15-10, 09:22 AM
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(Quote) Champion Spark plugs are recommended and should be the only plugs you run in most Chrysler products. (check tag on underside of hood or rad support)

This is true, and the reason for it is because “Mopar is in bed with “Champion”. It’s all about politics, profits and business as usual.

(Like I said) Never use “Champion or Spitfire” plugs.

In taking it to the next level you shouldn’t use “Bosch or “Autolite” either. Stick with the “Proven Winner”.

NGK part number 7082
 
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Old 08-15-10, 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike.B View Post
That said, I really wouldn't rule out that TP sensor either, but you can test that with an analog ohmmeter. Remove the connector, find 2 terminals on TP sensor that needle of meter moves in conjunction with throttle movement, and move throttle slow and smoothly full open, and slowly back, and watch needle closely on meter. If you see any sudden jump, or drop, or hesitation in needle movement, change it. Don't be afraid to try it a few times, as you are working with something intermittent here, so it may take quite a few tries to catch it, if that's the culprit.
I'm really starting to wonder, considering the locatrion to high heat, if that might not be the problem. Today was about 20 degrees colder out with a strong headwind entering my grill + under the car, and drove 20+ miles highway mostly but also in town and it never bucked!(so far today)

Could I instead rig up a voltmeter to the outgoing wire of the TPS, to ground, in parallel?(the asame way I am currently doing with my negative coil wire?) and into my cabin?, in hopes of catching it right when it does it?
 
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Old 08-15-10, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by ASE MASTER View Post
(Your Question) Can't you take some guesses?

Sorry, but I’m a pro and I never guess. Guessing wouldn’t be fair to my customers, and my customers would see “Guessing” as being extremely unprofessional.
We are gettng hung up on splitting hairs about terminology here. I mean EDUCATED "guesses", ruling out those things which would not apply since I do not have slippage, no misfire ever and no backfire ever. And the fact the car behaves like it totally shuts down for split second. Not like 1,2 or 5 plugs stop working - I mean like all 6 go out. I am talking quiet sound with suddenly no pedal response even if you press harder on the pedal - and then suddenly vaROOM - off she goes again, suddenly, jerking me back in the seat.

I have a question: When you suddenly let off the gas of a carburated car, some gas and some air still are being drawn in. Does the same occur with fuel injection? The reason I ask is the fact that the on, off, on behavior that causes the severe bucking is not as severly duplicated if I simply let off the gas, then reapply the pedal to the same postion. But that head-jerk bucking occurance likely WOULD occur if fuel is TOTALLY being cut off, say due to fuel pump, something that sporadically blocks sock(if one is still on the pump) or clogs the filter, or, say if the TPS suddenly quits?, then starts up again?

Per your list of basics - why look at stuff like plugs and rotor? And how could I know the condition of the sock? I asked for advice previously on that issue.
 
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Old 08-15-10, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by ASE MASTER View Post

32 EGR system failure

33 A/C clutch relay circuit


55 End of error messages (If you get this only, no errors were found)
I did this months ago and get same code as right now = 33 (I think) and 55. I get what seems like a 32 - but after a little delay of one more second, there is one more blink. Then a real long pause until the 55 code occurs.

My a/c works wonderful, but it sure does click on and off a lot, and the defrost puts out a/c even when the a/c button is not pushed in!, so I am thinking the code really is 33.
 
  #18  
Old 08-15-10, 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by ecman51` View Post
...Could I instead rig up a voltmeter to the outgoing wire of the TPS, to ground, in parallel?(the asame way I am currently doing with my negative coil wire?) and into my cabin?, in hopes of catching it right when it does it?
Yes, that is the idea!

Connect a light or a multimeter, or a noise making device - whatever to various things so you can "see" or "hear" what is going on. (Just one thing at a time, else you will be watching too many things and not the road! )

And in this case a multimeter would be the correct thing to connect for a TPS. Just don't leave it in the car. Summer temperatures in a car can wreck a multimeter.

And you would want to monitor the voltage ONLY, not ohms. When on ohms, the meter places electricity on the test leads and this would "confuse" your engine computer. It would make the engine computer think the throttle was in a different position than it actually was.

As to cutting off suddenly, I would not think that would be a loss in fuel pressure as I would think that would be a gradual decline in pressure? (I don't know?)

I was thinking more along the lines of the fuel injectors suddenly stopping working for some electrical reason? I would think that would be more of a sudden "off"?

Or spark plugs suddenly stopping sparking?
 
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Old 08-15-10, 01:53 PM
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(Your Question) And how could I know the condition of the sock?

You pull the fuel pump and examine it. Based on everything I’ve read so far I’m convinced that the bucking is a result of fuel pressure and volume being compromised. Do the following. First change the fuel filter. Now pull the fuel pump and remove the “Sock Screen” from the pump. Reinstall the pump without the “Sock Screen”, drive the car ad post the results.

I’ve been giving your problem some more thought. After you have the pump back in the car, and before you drive you should do a “Pump Volume Test”. With the engine off, and using the cars battery as an external power source energize the fuel pump. The goal here is to measure the volume of fuel delivered by the fuel pump during a specified interval of time. As a rule, a pump in good working order should easily deliver a quart of fuel in 30 seconds. Post the results.
 

Last edited by ASE MASTER; 08-15-10 at 03:43 PM.
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Old 08-18-10, 03:28 PM
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Bill, where would a good place to look first, if for some reason all the injectors at once stopped working, then all came back on again?

ASE, There is no way in shinola I am going to dabble with tank and pump work. Besides explosion hazard, the car sits low to the ground and I have no hoist. Plus I can't afford to run into problems and tie up the car for say days. When it comes to something like this, I really would need to take it to someone who has enough experience to do this work blindfolded. Also, for as rust free as my car is, even under the car, for some reason there is a sizeable amount of rust around the fuel pump hole(but does not leak any gas - yet). I live near a small auto parts store, but not near lots of them, and not near any junkyard, say if I needed another whole tank or something.

To all, remember this problem does not occur all the time. In fact, most the time it does not. Maybe out of an entire 1/2 hour drive, even at it's worst bucking(and THAT does not even happen on daily 60 mile driving! sometimes), it occurs for maybe 5 minutes and then goes away. Other times/days it just hiccup bucks for 1 or 2 seconds every so many blocks, for a while until that too ceases.

A remote fuel pressure test can be done. But I'm not sure I could catch it with a volume test under this situation. I am sure it is getting good volume and pressure, when the problem is not occuring.

Maybe I will break down and get a fuel filter, as suggested. Even though the fuel filter must not be outright plugged up -Maybe there will be something telling in the fuel line before it, if I pump out some gas into a bowl, before putting on the new filter.
 
  #21  
Old 08-18-10, 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by ecman51` View Post
Bill, where would a good place to look first, if for some reason all the injectors at once stopped working, then all came back on again?
If that was the case and that was the confirmed problem and I caught that with test leads going into the car...

Then next I would just rewire the test leads a bit...

The fuel injectors would have a + and a - connection. (And of course we could only monitor one fuel injector.)

I assume vehicles are different. With some fuel injectors, maybe the - goes to a common ground connection somewhere and the engine computer switches on/off the + to each injector. Other cars might have a constant +12 supplied and the engine computer would switch on/off the - to each injector.

Anyway next I would monitor just one of those connections with my test wires and wire the other test wire to a known good (opposite) connection. (instead of both wires as we did to initially find the problem)

Say wire one of the test leads to a good body or battery ground and the other test lead to a fuel injector + connection.

Then if that stopped working when the problem occured, we would know the problem was with the + side.

If that continued to work when the problem occurred, then we could switch connections. Wire one test lead to a good + 12 volts connection at the battery or main power distribution, and the other test lead to a fuel injector - wire. Then hopefully "catch" it in the act again.

Then at that point we would know that it was the - side which had a problem.

Let's say it was the + side. And lets say this was on a vehicle which always had + 12 provided to the injectors via a fused circuit... Next we would move our test wire further up that circuit. Say just after the fuse for that circuit. Then monitor some more.

If the problem occurred again with our test wires, then it would be a problem with the fuse or before that.

If the problem did not occur again with our test wires when the problem happened with the vehicle, then we would know it was a problem with the wiring between the fuse and the injectors.

[Basically by moving test wires around, you can narrow the problem down to a specific run of wire, circuit, ground, or whatever.]

I've done this before with some NASTY intermittent problems and narrowed down the problem to within a couple of inches of wiring and still not been able to see any visible problem with the wire. Then I strip the wire in that area, then can see that the wire melted on the inside or had a manufacturing defect.

(I was determined to find the exact spot where the problem was being caused! )
 
  #22  
Old 08-19-10, 02:26 PM
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(Quote) Bill, where would a good place to look first, if for some reason all the injectors at once stopped working, then all came back on again?

That’s not what’s happening here, but the answer to the question is failing “Drivers”, a “failing “ECM” and in extremely rare cases, (like one in 900 hundred million an intermittent “ASD” relay).

(Quote) ASE, There is no way in shinola I am going to dabble with tank and pump work. Besides explosion hazard, the car sits low to the ground and I have no hoist. Plus I can't afford to run into problems and tie up the car for say days. When it comes to something like this, I really would need to take it to someone who has enough experience to do this work blindfolded.

Look guy we’re trying to help you. There are some great mechanics on this forum. I personally have been spinning wrenches since I was 14, and I’m now 79. Let’s talk like “Men” here and forget about fixing it “Blindfolded”. The blindfold remark is just plain “WRONG”.

Please don’t take what I’m saying the wrong way. My intention is not to insult you, hurt your feelings, or anything like that. I’m talking to you “Man to Man”, and no differently than I would speak to anyone of my own customers. I know you want this issue resolved. I also know you want to spend as little money in resolving it, and maximize the time resolving it. Well, first of all it’s never that easy, and secondly you seem resistant to any and all of our recommendations.

That resistance is adding to your frustration. Furthermore that resistance is the single biggest reason why this issue remains unresolved for months. You’re looking for a “Magic Bullet” here and there is none? You’re looking for someone to tell you; “well this is the problem, and it’s going to cost “EXACTLY” $39.18 cents to fix. Well, that will never happen. It doesn’t work that way. You have an issue with fuel delivery and volume. PERIOD.

LIKE IT OR NOT TESTS HAVE TO DONE!!!!

LIKE IT OR NOT THE FUEL TANK HAS TO COME DOWN!!!!

LIKE IT NOT FUEL PRESSURE HAS TO BE CONFIRMED WITH A PRESSURE GAUGE!!!!

LIKE IT OR NOT THE SOCK SCREEN AT THE FUEL PUMP HAS TO BE CHECKED!!!!

I’m only speaking honestly, and trying to “Help”.

Best Regards
Sam
 
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Old 08-20-10, 05:43 PM
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ASE, keep in mind I have excellent mechanical skills across many trade lines, and am not a novice.

I do not like to waste my time and money on approaching any repair angles that are fruitless.

The remark I made about working blindfolded is not simply a flippant remark. There are indeed several mechanical repairs I can do -blindfolded - seriously. As stated, I have excellent diagnostic and repair skills across a broad spectrum of trades. My tools, supplies I carry, and the fact I have not had a repairman to my house for anything in the last 30+ years bears this out - whether furnaces, appliances, electrical, plumbing, etc. And I have done a lot of my own work on cars and lawnmowers.

And I am not posting this thread with only me in mind. It is such an odd issue that - rather than be stubborn and try to tackle this myself - I brought this up on this forum in hopes it may not only help me, but could help someone else sometime, if we resolve this.

I have not had the time to devote to this problem that I'd like, due to my heavy work schedule. Hence the months that have gone by without actually undertaking a lot of testing.

Couple this with the fact I have already had it into a garage that I thought had a decent reputation, and is a very busy shop, yet they charged me $60 for driving my car around and not a hint as to what may even be the problem. No list of 10 possibilities. Nothing. I'm not going to shops who may tackle my problem willy nilly.

The fact the car keeps running has taken the urgency away, to a certain degree. The only thing causing me to press on with this is the fact it could MAYBE just up and die and leave me stranded. We wouldn't want that, if especially I was on one of my trips between towns and it is -20F out.

With my symptom, many possible suggestions likely are not the cause.

You mentioned the odds of an ASR going down. Well, I already know that is not it from the fact I have a voltmeter rigged to the coil, into the cabin. Since the coil shuts down, along with the gas, we can rule that one out, since I have constant voltage at the coil, even when it is severely bucking. That alone should signify some kind of skill level right there.

The fact I also diagnosed why no power TO a fuse - and correctly nailed it, the first time without shotgun approach, as the steering column multi-function lever after reading Mitchell's wiring diagram. And also correctly diagnosed my ignition switch as shot based on a wiring schematic, and how no power to the ignition relay but was before it. This all takes a pretty good skill level. I had to mention these things, in hopes I am not talked down to so much.

I do not want to give the wrong impression - but I am open to ideas. For example - I already know that the gas tank issue may have to be addressed. I am simply saying I am not going to do it. A mechanic may have to - but not me. But I'd like to rule out any easy stuff that I may be able to tackle myself, obviously.

Thanks for sticking with me on this, and trying to help.

Bill,

And your ideas are being read also. Thanks.
 
  #24  
Old 08-20-10, 06:06 PM
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Bill,

(Quote) Thanks for sticking with me on this, and trying to help.

You're very welcome my friend. Not only do I hate jig saw puzzles, but I treat every problem on this forum as if it was my own and happening to me.

(Quote) And your ideas are being read also.

Thanks I appericate that. You're one of the few that actually reads our answers and responds.

The Big Picture is that fuel flow and volume are being compromised. (Hence the bucking). Your goal is to troubleshoot and fix that. Do it in your time, your way whatever. You know where to find us if you need us.

Good luck and best Regards
Sam
 
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Old 08-21-10, 01:43 PM
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On my Satruday am car repair call-in show, this guy called up about a somewhat similar issue. The injectors were discussed and Sam said that the injectors shut down completely, for emission purposes, when your foot comes off the gas.

That information got me thinking that if that is the case, unlike old carbureted cars - then if the ignition system shut down, when your foot is off the gas, let's say, and came back on........ in the case of a fuel injected vehicle, perhaps there would not necessarily nor likely be a misfire or backfire if say both the ignition and gas suddenly quit, then came back on?
 
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Old 08-21-10, 02:33 PM
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(Quote) Sam said that the injectors shut down completely, for emission purposes, when your foot comes off the gas.

Started spinning wrenches when I was 14. Now 79. Have Sam contact me. Would love to hear ideology for injectors shutting down.
 
  #27  
Old 08-22-10, 05:55 AM
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Wink

Originally Posted by ASE MASTER View Post
(Quote) Champion Spark plugs are recommended and should be the only plugs you run in most Chrysler products. (check tag on underside of hood or rad support)

This is true, and the reason for it is because “Mopar is in bed with “Champion”. It’s all about politics, profits and business as usual.

(Like I said) Never use “Champion or Spitfire” plugs.

In taking it to the next level you shouldn’t use “Bosch or “Autolite” either. Stick with the “Proven Winner”.

NGK part number 7082
Having run into it many times myself, and seen it proven by other Chrysler mechanics over many years I worked at dealerships, I refuse to take the chance. I'm Not selling for Champion, or Chrysler, just stating my experience & other mechanics over last 20-30 years.
 
  #28  
Old 08-22-10, 06:04 AM
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Originally Posted by ecman51` View Post
On my Satruday am car repair call-in show, this guy called up about a somewhat similar issue. The injectors were discussed and Sam said that the injectors shut down completely, for emission purposes, when your foot comes off the gas.

That information got me thinking that if that is the case, unlike old carbureted cars - then if the ignition system shut down, when your foot is off the gas, let's say, and came back on........ in the case of a fuel injected vehicle, perhaps there would not necessarily nor likely be a misfire or backfire if say both the ignition and gas suddenly quit, then came back on?
Sorry, I have to disagree with "Sam" . If the injectors shut down completely, the engine would stall. There has to be enough fuel to keep engine running/idling, whatever.
 
  #29  
Old 08-22-10, 08:36 AM
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As to fuel cut-off, this gets complicated, but in "English", if the engine rpm's are above idle, then fuel can be totally cut off when the foot is removed from the accelerator and this would create engine braking like when going down hill...

BUT the engine computer needs to keep an eye on the rpm's. If it decreases too fast, then a bit of fuel might be added so the engine does not stall or if it gets below a certain rpm, then fuel would be added to maintain idle.

Here is a bit of this in English which says "While coasting with the engine running and the transmission in gear, most cars' engine control unit with fuel injection will cut off fuel supply, and the engine will continue running, being driven by the wheels. Compared to coasting in neutral, this has an increased drag"
From...
(See Coasting)
Fuel economy-maximizing behaviors - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Then the following is quite technical and is discussing the computer programming for one vehicle. Where is says something like "$3A5A" or "LV8", IGNORE that. Those are just places or values in the computer program.

You can read through the following reading just the "English" parts here and there, and get a general idea of what it is talking about (and not need to be a computer programmer)...
http://www.turbotweak.com/deceleration.pdf


More...
Deceleration fuel cutoff (DFCO)...
Google
 
  #30  
Old 08-25-10, 05:10 AM
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Originally Posted by ASE MASTER View Post
(Quote) Champion Spark plugs are recommended and should be the only plugs you run in most Chrysler products. (check tag on underside of hood or rad support)

This is true, and the reason for it is because “Mopar is in bed with “Champion”. It’s all about politics, profits and business as usual.

(Like I said) Never use “Champion or Spitfire” plugs.

In taking it to the next level you shouldn’t use “Bosch or “Autolite” either. Stick with the “Proven Winner”.

NGK part number 7082
ASE,
I am the technical manager at Autolite. I am also a ASE master tech and shop owner for over 30 years. Your comments on diagnosis are great, your knowledge of spark plugs leaves something to be desired. An engine doesnt know what brand of plug is installed, it only knows if the plug is good and the heat range is correct for the engine calibration. What exactly is NGK the proven winner of? In bed with most, but not all japanese auto makers and thats it. Have a great day and I hope you stick to the facts in the future.
 
  #31  
Old 08-25-10, 01:25 PM
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Motorking,

Started spinning wrenches when I was 14 now 79. Not the type of pro with a swelled head. Happy to share what I’ve learned over the decades, and help others.

(Quote) Have a great day and I hope you stick to the facts in the future.

Since you didn’t post any facts, consider it my pleasure to post some for you. I’m always willing to help a novice, do it yourself, individual, or Saturday morning warrior. Below are the most recent actual case histories of Autolite plug failure.


1993 Mazda MX-6 6cylinder.
Tune-up done by owner. Autolite plug AP5224 installed.

1998 Camry 4 cylinder.
Tune-up done by owner. Autolite plug AP3923 installed.

1979 Caprice Classic 5.7.
Tune-up done by owner. Autolite plug AP26 installed.

2000 Toyota Rav -4 gas 4 cylinder.
Tune-up done by owner. Autolite plug APP3923 installed.
“OE” configuration requires dual ground electrodes.

2004 Toyota Corolla 4 cylinder.
Tune-up done by owner. Autolite plug AP3924 installed.

1998 Chevrolet blazer 4.3. Autolite plug.
Tune-up done by owner. Autolite plug AP605 installed.

2001 Volkswagon Jetta-GLX 2.8.
Tune-up done by owner. Autolite plug AP5224 installed.

On separate occasions all the above individuals brought their cars to me. Complaints were all the same. “Sam I just tuned up my car. It ran great for the first 100 or so miles, but now it’s running like crap”. Complaints were all the same.

Hesitation
Stalling
Poor performance
Rough idle
Diminished fuel economy
In three cases “MIL” was set.

Common denominator (FACTS ARE).

All cars had Autolite plugs installed.
All plugs were “Dry Soot Black Carbon Fouled”.

FACTS ARE! all complaints were resolved when I removed the Autolite plugs and installed NGK.

Best Regards
Sam
 
  #32  
Old 08-25-10, 03:27 PM
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Bill, So then on injected cars it DOES cut off the gas?, at least under certain driving conditions? Will reading the prescribed site explain exactly under which conditions it cuts off the gas completely?, and for which conditions it won't?
 
  #33  
Old 08-25-10, 03:43 PM
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Sam, Could one possibly be able to buy an available plug from the spark plug mfg., whose plug does not last, that has the same physical attributes as the plug that does work?

I'm wondering if rather than the problem being with particular brand, that maybe the same heat range or insulator nose length or something is not right. Being the curious George I always have been, I'd be the type to buy the two brands of plugs and disect them and see why one would soot when the other did not. Plugs are pretty basic ain't they, when you come right down to it?
 
  #34  
Old 08-25-10, 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted by ecman51` View Post
Bill, So then on injected cars it DOES cut off the gas?, at least under certain driving conditions?
Yes - But...

The wording used was "most cars". So as to your specific car, you would need to investigate that and manufacturers are not good at giving out technical information about the engine computers.... (Arggg! Helps to know how these things work.)

Anyway, for your situation, this gives an additional clue as to what the problem could be.

It could be there is a dead spot or a spot which shorts on your throttle position sensor or the wiring to that. Or it may just do this when warm. Then that would totally cut off the fuel.

(I would have tested the fuel injectors first to see if in fact fuel was being cut off, then figured out why that was happening.)

But anyway you can check the TPS with instructions on how to do that for your specific vehicle and a multimeter.

On my car, I would disconnect the cable from the TPS, then connect a multimeter - set to the proper ohms scale, then it would read a certain resistance at closed throttle, then gradually change as the throttle was moved to fully open.

This is like a volume control on an old radio. You may have had one of these and turned the volume and heard scratching. And if really bad, there might have been a dead spot somewhere, then you turn it a bit this way or that way and the sound comes out again.

Same thing can happen with a TPS. It is sort of like an electric volume control for how much fuel gets added!

And it might only happen when it is hot? But slowly go back and forth and the ohm readings should up gradually or down gradually.

If at one spot it suddenly reads 0 (short) or open (no connection), then that would in effect be telling the engine computer your foot was off the accelerator, then fuel would be cut to the fuel injectors as discussed above.

Or it could read a bizarre resistance at a certain point and that might be the same resistance reading as foot off the accelerator.

For example as you are slowly moving the TPS, you get these numbers on the meter...

1000
1010
1020
1030
50000000
1040
1050
1060

Where it read 50000000, that was a bad spot! It should have read 1030 to 1040, or a number close to that.

If you want to learn how a volume control (variable resistor) works, you can go to a 2nd hand store and buy an old radio for a dollar or two, then take it apart, then take apart the volume control. See what is inside. See how it works. Put your multimeter on it and turn the dial - see the resistance change.

Here is a picture of one...
http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/...es/var_res.gif

This explains it a bit...
Howstuffworks "How Dimmer Switches Work"

Notice how there is a little metal arm which touches the long curved resistor flat piece. Needless to say, if dirt or gunk gets in there, it could make it lose its connection. Or if there was a break or worn spot on the flat resistor part, it would not make a good connection at that spot.

Also you can monitor the voltage on the wires while driving. If the problem occurs, don't move the accelerator position any before first looking at the multimeter.

And a *nasty* problem is that someone was testing at a connector, shoved in a multimeter test lead or whatever which was too large, then expanded the female terminal on the connector so it is too large. Then it no longer gets a good grip on the male terminal and will have an intermittent connection.
 
  #35  
Old 08-25-10, 04:33 PM
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I found a handy dandy video on how to test a TPS...
How to test and replace your car's throttle position sensor | Video « Wonder How To
 
  #36  
Old 08-25-10, 04:45 PM
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Bill. Thanks for your hard work. This thread will be lke my personal archive of info and I will refer to the advice when my (rental housing) work slows, and I can do some serious testing, as we've talked about.
 
  #37  
Old 08-25-10, 07:08 PM
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ecman51`

(Quote) Sam, Could one possibly be able to buy an available plug from the spark plug mfg., whose plug does not last, that has the same physical attributes as the plug that does work?

Yes. Good idea.


(Quote) I'd be the type to buy the two brands of plugs and disect them and see why one would soot when the other did not. Plugs are pretty basic ain't they, when you come right down to it?

No they are not. Big difference in materials. Also the “Stresses and Tolerances” vary dramatically in manufacture, and from manufacturer to manufacturer. It boils down to this.


The bitterness of poor quality
Is long remembered after the
Sweetness of low price is
Long forgotten.



Here's some really simple and basic information on the TPS. Tomorrow I’ll go into how to specifically check the TPS in your car.

On your car, the TPS mounts to the throttle body, and connects to the throttle blade shaft. The TPS is nothing more than a variable resistor. It furnishes the PCM with a voltage that is representative of the throttle blades position. When the position of the throttle blade changes, the resistance of the TPS changes. The PCM furnishes about 5 volts to the TPS. The TPS output voltage is the input signal that is sent to the PCM, and represents the position of the throttle blade. The TPS output voltage to the PCM will vary from about 0.5 volts to about 5 volts at wot. The PCM uses the TPS input to determine engine operating conditions under different engine loads. Once the determination of current engine conditions and loads have been established, the PCM will adjust fuel injector pulse width and ignition timing
 
  #38  
Old 08-27-10, 01:11 PM
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Ok “Curious George”. Here we go. Fun time. Sorry this is late but I was editing for “Hot Rod” and “Car Craft” magazine. Watching paint dry is more fun than editing, but I edit because I get paid an insane amount of money. The day will come when you will finally realize that your “bucking problem” HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE TPS, but I do completely understand the type of “MAINIC” you are, and how much you enjoy doing diagnostic tests. (LOL). Below is a “VEHICLE SPECIFIC” step by step walk through for checking the “TPS” in your car.

Best Regards
Sam



Before replacing the TPS, check the terminals at the TPS and PCM to ensure good connections (tight and clean).

Turn the ignition switch to the ON position.

Check the output voltage at the orange/dark blue tracer wire of the connector by back probing the connector with the throttle completely closed (idle).

Make certain not to pierce the wire insulation to take a reading, use only the back probe method.

If the voltage is 1.0 volt or less with the throttle completely closed, proceed to the next step.

If the voltage is above 1.0 volt with the throttle completely closed, the TPS is defective and must be replaced with a new one.

While slowly opening the throttle to wide open, watch the voltage reading.

If the voltage change was a smooth transition, proceed to the next step.

If the voltage was irregular or no voltage change was detected, the TPS is defective and must be replaced with a new one.

With the throttle completely open (wide open throttle), read the voltage again.

If the maximum voltage detected was at least 3.5 volts with the throttle completely open, proceed to the next step.

If the maximum voltage was not 3.5 volts or more, the TPS is defective and must be replaced with a new one.

The TPS is functioning correctly if it passed all steps in this test.
 
  #39  
Old 08-27-10, 04:09 PM
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Sam, just so you know my car is individual port injection.

My car bucked again today, quite badly, like a bucking bronco, for like 6 miles then got pretty normal again. I wrote this down in my diary and wrote how it then(after the bucking went away) ran normal for the last 6 miles - and that was the kiss of death - as the car, for the first time ever (since I have owned it since this last March, (after I stopped for coffee and roll) started up fine, then died within a couple seconds. So I restarted it, and same thing. Then restarted it, and it went. (Just so you know, my car has standard coil and distributor, not a crank position sensor.)

You do not seem to think it is the TPS, you said in your post. In order of say the top 3-5 things, what do you think can cause this, where, once again to save you from re-reading my symptoms - the car behaves just like I suddenly let off the gas pedal, then in a split second to 2 seconds the gas turns back on, then off, then on, etc., without any misfiring. Sometimes when it does not completely buck, or before it bucks, I can feel the car fade(slow down) as if I let off the gas, as stated - so I naturally give the pedal more gas and nothing - and then, WHAM, there it is again, full throttle.

I am leaning toward thinking there is some crud(rust scale or ?, water, object(a rag/paper toweling?), or disconnected sock in the tank - and gathers at the pickup or at the entrance top the nearby inline filter. And the reason the engine does not choke off and die, nor 'starve out' when accellerating, is this crud or object moves around.

I would think if there was a mechanical or electrical failure, that by now (exactly 3 months of this nonsense) the car would have just upped and quit, rather than this weird symptom that keeps coming and going, irregardless of outside temperature, or if it rains or not(never did it in a recent 4 inch per hour rainstorm), going around corners, etc. Could be wrong though, and that is why I am seeking opinions.

BTW -a coincidence where last night on the tv news screen bar, it said Toyota is recalling yet more cars, as there were like 3 years of cars where the car might just stall, and cause an accident. It said they do not know yet whether the problem is engine related.
 
  #40  
Old 08-28-10, 11:54 AM
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(Quote) I am leaning toward thinking there is some crud(rust scale or ?, water, object(a rag/paper toweling?), or disconnected sock in the tank - and gathers at the pickup or at the entrance top the nearby inline filter. And the reason the engine does not choke off and die, nor 'starve out' when accellerating, is this crud or object moves around.

ecman51 (Curious George) LOL

I’ve been saying this from the beginning. The “bucking” is a result of fuel flow, psi, and fuel volume being compromised. Any of you’re above mentioned could be the cause. First would be severely clogged “Fuel Filter”. Second would be a “Sock Screen” issue. Don’t dismiss a failing fuel pump either. After all, what is an electric fuel pump? It’s nothing more than a “Self Priming Pump” that’s energized via a 12 volt motor. Well, that motor has an armature. If the armature is failing it will heat up and “Arch”. When that happens the pump can’t pump adequate fuel volume and maintain proper psi values. At that point “THE ENGINE IS STARVING FOR FUEL” so it “bucks”.


Speak to a doctor. Maybe dropping a few “Flomax” pills in the fuel tank will help.(LOL)
 
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