Broke Buick-Complicated

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  #1  
Old 09-03-10, 06:31 AM
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Question Broke Buick-Complicated

To all engine gurus:

On my 1998 Buick--3800 engine. Throttle body gasket let coolant leak into the combustion chamber--actually filled some of the cylinders. Since I was unaware of the event, when I tried to start the engine, there was a loud BANG and engine would not crank. I replaced the gasket, removed the plugs, and engine will crank. I replaced the plugs and engine WILL NOT crank . All suggestions appreciated. Maybe a bent push rod?

Thanx,
Rebel
 
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  #2  
Old 09-03-10, 07:25 AM
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buick wont crank

I beleive the first thing I would do is inspect the starter.
 
  #3  
Old 09-03-10, 05:54 PM
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you hydrolocked the engine.
you still have coolant in CC-s/cylinders.
well, ain't got easy one for you. you must cleanse the cylinders.
engine oil is bust also, just letting you know.

personally, if it's much of a value for you, i'd have tried this:

remove spark plugs, and try blowing compressed air through into cylinders; hand crack piston up, so that any fluid you have in cylinder bore is all the way up to the hole.

well, modern coolants are not much of water; otherwise, ether is known water removing agent.

short of taking heads off and cleaning everything....

hey, maybe rigging shop vac with a narrow flexible hose and trying suck it all out clean?

do you know which cylinders you hydrolocked? as you could remove plugs on those, disable injectors, and try starting engine on live ones. idea is to get it hot and force hot coolant steam out.
WILL BE VERY NOISY!! i drove with one spark plug ripped out of engine head once. it's damn 50 caliber machine gun!


From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Hydrolock - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Hydrolock (a shorthand notation for either hydraulic lock or hydrostatic lock) is an abnormal condition of an internal combustion engine in which an incompressible liquid, commonly water, has been introduced into one or more cylinders, causing immobilization or damage. Hydrolock can occur because an internal combustion engine must compress a volume of gas in order to operate, while most common liquids that could enter an internal combustion engine do not compress. If liquid is introduced at a volume greater than the volume of the combustion chamber at its minimum (top of the piston's stroke), the piston cannot complete its travel. Either the engine must stop rotating or a mechanical failure will occur.
Another cause can include a head gasket failure, which may allow the radiator coolant to leak into the combustion chamber.

If an engine hydrolocks while at speed a mechanical failure may occur. Common damage modes include bent or broken connecting rods, a fractured head, a fractured block, crankcase damage, damaged rod bearings, damaged seals, or any combination of these. Forces absorbed by other interconnected components may cause additional damage. Physical damage to metal parts will manifest in a "crashing" or "screeching" sound and usually requires replacement of the engine or a substantial rebuild of its major components.

If an engine hydrolocks while idling or under low power conditions, the engine may stop suddenly with no immediate damage. In this case the engine can be purged by unscrewing the spark plugs or injectors and spinning the engine to expel the liquid from the combustion chambers. Depending on how the liquid was introduced to the engine, it possibly can be restarted and dried out with normal combustion heat, or it may require more work, such as flushing out corrupted operating fluids and replacing damaged gaskets.

If a cylinder fills with liquid while the engine is turned off, the engine will refuse to turn when a starting cycle is attempted. Since the starter mechanism's torque is normally much lower than the engine's operating torque, this will usually not produce damage as long as the operator does not continue with the attempt. The engine can be drained as above and restarted. If a corrosive substance such as water has been in the engine long enough to cause rusting, more extensive repairs will be required.
Small amounts of water introduced into a gasoline engine will upset the air/fuel mixture, while larger amounts will cause hydrolock. If sufficient water is available at the air intake, the effect may create a positive feedback cycle, whereby water entering the engine retards the combustion and cools the chamber, preventing the water from being fully vaporized and expelled, which then allows more water to be retained on the next cycle, until hydrolock occurs. Depending on the rate water is introduced into the engine, this effect can cut power and speed in an engine to a point that when hydrolock actually occurs it does not cause catastrophic engine damage.


How to: Fix A Hydrolocked Engine
Tools needed: Spark plug socket attachment w/ socket wrench
2-3 foot peice of speaker wire
WD-40


ok this is a ghetto remedy for getting the water out of the engine block provided there is no damadge to the bottom end of your engine.

Step 1: take wire listed above and touch it to your positive battery terminal. Touch the other end to the positive terminal on your starter. you should hear the motor try and move the flywheel. Next touch the other terminal to ensure that your starter is still good. If you do not hear the starter rev up take your car to a shop or refer to a mechanic for further cuidance.

Step 2: If both test come out good remove your negative battery terminal. Disconnect the ignition wires from all of your spark plugs. After that is complete remove your spark plugs and set them to the side.

Step 3: reconnect the negative battery terminal. After that is complete reconnect the speaker wire to the positive battery terminal. Ensure that people are clear from the front of your engine. Connect the wire to the positive terminal on your starter. The water should start shooting from your cilinders. Keep this going until the majority of the water is out of the cylinders.

Step 4: Spray some type of lubricant into each cylinder and re-insert your spark plugs. Once that is complete reconnect the ignition wires. Get inside your car and begin starting it. This may take some time depending on your spark plugs and some other variables.

Step 5: Once the motor is runnig let it idle until engine is warm and white smoke is no longer pouring out of your exaust. Continue to run car for about 30 min.

Step 6: Remove the negative battery terminal and let car sit for about 5-10 min. This wil clear the check engine light that will show up when the car starts. Reconnect the negative terminal and start engine once more. Let it Idle until the idle is steady an consistent. Take your car somewhere and drive it kinda hard through the first 3 or 4 gears.

 
  #4  
Old 09-04-10, 08:33 AM
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Also is amazing how loud a radiator fan can be when one of the four blades breaks off. Imagine Fisher Price lawnmower amplified to 100 times louder than normal.
 
  #5  
Old 09-04-10, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by rebel View Post
I replaced the gasket, removed the plugs, and engine will crank.
I replaced the plugs and engine WILL NOT crank .
I think this is why you have the suggestion about hydrolock AND starter
When you say the engine will not crank, do you mean it won't turn past a point or you get no action at all from the starter?
 
  #6  
Old 09-04-10, 07:23 PM
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if the engine turns with plugs removed, starter is fine; if it does not with plugs in, starter simply does not have enough power to overcome non-compressive fluid inside cc-s.
also, we do not know, if he had all plugs removed, or just few.

like i said, she should start off even 2 cylinders, prolly, ones farthermost from that gasket. hopefully, this should heat the engine up enough to evaporate coolant. or, at least, turn it into steam/gas, and evacuate.

i am really hoping, tierods are not bent. along with busted bearings.

like i said - oy!
then again, unless it's a 4 banger, V 6-es are pretty tough engines...
 
  #7  
Old 09-05-10, 02:52 PM
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Engine cranks

Hey!

Maybe I was not detailed enough in my post. With the plugs removed the starter cranks the engine. With the engine oil fill cap removed I can observe the valve springs moving and I also covered one of the spark plug holes with my finger and there is compression. HOWEVER, the starter does not "sound right" and does not seem to spin the engine very fast. With the spark plugs installed, the engine will try to crank---actually acts like a weak battery. Battery is new and I used volt meter and it shows 12.7 volts--charged overnight just to be sure and engine still will not crank.

Just to be sure, I am going to remove the starter tomorrow and make sure that it is not damaged.

Thanks for all the tips. I will post any news.

Rebel
 
  #8  
Old 09-05-10, 04:32 PM
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Good luck with it!!!!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 
  #9  
Old 09-06-10, 06:42 AM
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While you are under there:

I suggest inspecting the area where the starter bolts to the transmission very carefully.
My brother had a "starter" issue that lasted a year before it was found.
His aluminum transmission had cracked and allowed movement when cranking. The crack was invisible in the static position.
We replaced the starter and the flywheel and the battery and the solonoid and the cables and the.........you get the idea.

Turned out to be a hairline crack in transmission
 
  #10  
Old 09-06-10, 08:06 AM
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After reading your post and having experience with this kind of problem I believe you have one or more twisted connecting rods that move o.k. without plugs but when under a load (plugs in) is too much resistance for your starter to crank.

Just thinking outloud.....you may also have broken a tooth on your flywheel the first time you cranked it with coolant in the cylinders.

Suggestion.......put a deep socket and breaker bar on the end of the crank shaft bolt (if you can get to it) and hand turn the crankshaft with all of the plugs in. If you cant get one full revolution then that motor is toast.

Some time ago I bought a '93 Turbo Plymouth Sundance that was driven through a deep puddle and sucked water into the air intake and hydro-locked the the motor. When I dismantled it I discovered one broken connecting rod and one twisted. The motor still ran....but barely and sounded like a cement mixer.
I through a junk yard motor in it and drove it for 5 years.
 
  #11  
Old 09-13-10, 01:51 PM
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update

STARTER;

Ok. Removed the starter==broken nose piece=installed new starter ($200). Engine will now crank. Removed intake manifold---full of water. Will now replace the upper intake manifold gasket (PLENUM). Not sure of the coolant route, because there is a coolant opening directly below where the throttle body attaches to the intake manifold---I don't understand what keeps the coolant from entering the intake manifold. Going to a dealer tomorrow to seek some knowledge.

Rebel
 
  #12  
Old 09-13-10, 03:17 PM
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rebel,

(Quote) I don't understand what keeps the coolant from entering the intake manifold.

(Quote) Going to a dealer tomorrow to seek some knowledge.

Don't waste your time. You won't find knowledge at a dealer. What you will find are "ASE CERTIFIED" part changers, who wouldn't even begin to know how to spell "Troubleshoot". Their only job is to sell sell sell parts parts parts and more parts every day.


Excessive engine coolant consumption or an engine coolant leak near or under the throttle body area of the upper intake manifold, could be related to upper intake manifold composite material that may degrade around the EGR stove pipe and could result in an internal or external coolant leak. Inspect the inner diameter of the EGR passage for signs of material degradation. Degradation will appear as “pitting” of the composite material in the EGR port passage. If degradation of upper intake manifold composite material is found, replace the lower and upper intake manifolds with the following part numbers:

Part Number Description

89017554 Gasket Kit, Upper Intake Manifold
89017272 Manifold Kit, Upper Intake
89017400 Gasket, Lower Intake Manifold
24508923 Manifold, Lower Intake


See TSB Number 01-06-01-007B
 
  #13  
Old 09-14-10, 01:44 AM
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Thumbs down EGR Stovepipe

ASE Master:

The lower manifold gaskets were replaced 'bout a year ago and the EGR stovepipe was replace two weeks ago because it was leaking. The upper plenum has been replaced twice--three years & two years past.

This time, when I removed the upper intake manifold the top of the lower intake manifold was full of water--don't know if that is normal. There is a 1/2 inch diameter coolant hole in the lower intake manifold that leads into the EGR stovepipe located directly below where the throttle body bolts onto the upper intake manifold. The plenum also has an open hole that matches the 1/2 inch stovepipe hole. THEREFORE, the 1/2 inch hole is open to the throat of the throttle body---so the fuel passes over the hole into the upper intake manifold. Again, I don't know if that is the design or if a part is missing. The schematics I have does not illustrate the coolant flow.

Thanx for the reply.

Rebel
 
  #14  
Old 09-14-10, 04:05 AM
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Rebel,

Like I said.

See the TSB.

The TSB lists the upgraded parts that must be installed to resolve the coolant issue.

If you don’t follow the TSB, and install the parts prior to the TSB the problem will keep reoccurring.


Click below.

http://www.dslreports.com/r0/downloa...06-01-007a.pdf
 
  #15  
Old 09-14-10, 06:31 AM
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water leak

No personal experience but I read somewhere that NAPA had a manifold that was supposed to correct this problem.
 
  #16  
Old 09-14-10, 01:54 PM
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Still Learning.

ASE Master / Retired Wrench

OK. Checked the site. Also, found a "Dorman" upper intake kit. Included in kit is o rings, seals, AND 1/2" and 5/8" EGR tube section that installs in the "hole" in mentioned leading to the throttle body. Instructions are that the "tubes" protect the plastic plenum from degradation due to hot gas vapors.

Sooooo, looks like I might get a new intake manifold/kit included and put the old Buick back together. Of course, there could be other internal engine damage from the "hydro-lock", but its all fun.

Thanx for the help.

Rebel
 
  #17  
Old 09-14-10, 02:40 PM
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(Quote) OK. Checked the site.

What site? I didn’t post any. Neither did anyone else. I posted the TSB.

Do you mean the TSB when you say; “Checked the site”?

If you mean “Napa” you’re playing “Russian Roulette”.

This job is a big enough pain in the butt. Why take a chance on having to do it again because a part failed. (Especially Napa). “Dorman” makes excellent products. I use them all the time, but it’s a “GM car. GM wrote the TSB, and listed the parts necessary to resolve the issue. Stick with the TSB, and buy the parts from a “GM dealer”.
 
  #18  
Old 09-14-10, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by ASE MASTER View Post
Don't waste your time. You won't find knowledge at a dealer. What you will find are "ASE CERTIFIED" part changers, who wouldn't even begin to know how to spell "Troubleshoot". Their only job is to sell sell sell parts parts parts and more parts every day.
What about ASE certified mechanics, at the dealer?
 
  #19  
Old 09-14-10, 06:06 PM
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ecman51,

(Question) What about ASE certified mechanics, at the dealer?

What about them? It’s possible to find one, two, or five decent ASE mechanics at a dealership, but the problem is they only know how to fix the vehicles for the dealership they work for. In other words, a Ford mechanic can only fix Fords, and a Chevy mechanic can only fix Chevy’s, (etc etc). It’s like a doctor telling you; “I can’t treat you because you’re a male, and I only treat females".

But, don’t take my word for it. Stop by a Hyundai dealership and discuss the bucking problem your Dodge has with an alleged “ASE” mechanic. Don’t be surprised if he tells you the problem is being caused by a long over due oil change and the need to rotate the tires.

Ask him how to confirm spark delivery on a moving vehicle?

Ask him if he knows the difference between “Fuel Pressure and “Fuel Volume?

Ask him to explain how one impacts the other?

Ask him to explain, why on a vehicle that leaks water in the rain, why (7 times out of 10) the water always leaks onto the front right (passenger side) of the vehicle?

An “ASE Certification” is just a piece of paper. You can’t learn this business in a classroom. Without practical and field experience an “ASE Certification” is only good as try liner for your parrots cage. There’s just no substitute for experience.
 
  #20  
Old 09-14-10, 06:58 PM
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Originally Posted by ASE MASTER View Post
An “ASE Certification” is just a piece of paper. You can’t learn this business in a classroom. Without practical and field experience an “ASE Certification” is only good as try liner for your parrots cage. There’s just no substitute for experience.
Thank YOU.!!!!!!! Finally some one gets it!!!!!

ASE = "ASK SOMEONE ELSE" Cuz I dont have a clue.

With that said, I'm off to take my "RE-CERT" tests...

On a lighter note.... Rebel....

Your first post mentioned a loud bang and no crank..... You then mentioned that the starter nose was broken, and now there is water in the lower intake.....

Loud bangs and broken starters would say to me that a CON ROD is TRASHED from trying to compress liquid. But...we continue...I know GM has problems with Intake leaks, but what about CYLINDER HEAD GASKETS?????? If the coolant fills a cylinder, it gets pushed into the exhaust, From there ...up the stove pipe for EGR, and into the intake.... There should NEVER be coolant in an AIR passage....
 

Last edited by Unclediezel; 09-14-10 at 07:53 PM.
  #21  
Old 09-15-10, 04:44 AM
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Diesel.

Your quotes appear below.

Excellent point buddy.

(Quote) Your first post mentioned a loud bang and no crank..... You then mentioned that the starter nose was broken, and now there is water in the lower intake.....

(Quote) Loud bangs and broken starters would say to me that a CON ROD is TRASHED from trying to compress liquid.


At first, I thought possible connecting rod as well. Goes to show you that great minds think alike. Since I’ve been there and done that, gut said; “The starter is trashed”. Must be that “ASE” thing combined with decades of experience at work.

The weakest link in a chain will always break first buddy. In this case that weak link is the starter (see rebel’s own quote) below. Doesn’t mean a twisted or snapped rod is not possible. As sure as God made little green apples you know it is. Just means that it takes much more liquid, entering the cylinders (than in rebel’s case) for a rod issue to occur

(Quote from rebel) STARTER;

Ok. Removed the starter==broken nose piece=installed new starter ($200). Engine will now crank. Removed intake manifold---full of water. Will now replace the upper intake manifold gasket (PLENUM). Not sure of the coolant route, because there is a coolant opening directly below where the throttle body attaches to the intake manifold---I don't understand what keeps the coolant from entering the intake manifold. Going to a dealer tomorrow to seek some knowledge.

Rebel



Best Regards
Sam
 
  #22  
Old 09-15-10, 06:30 AM
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Checked the site

ASE / All others

The site on your reply: http://www.dslreports.com/r0/downloa...06-01-007a.pdf

I did go to a GM dealer with my question. I was advised that coolant SHOULD be on top of the lower intake manifold. Also that there is a short EGR tube in the lower intake manifold that goes through the plenum and a short distance in front of the throttle body throat (will attach picture in new post). Purpose of EGR tube is to protect the upper intake manifold from heat degradation.

I am going to order a new Dorman upper intake manifold which includes o rings, seals, and the aforementioned EGR tube. After installation, I will try to start the engine. If, indeed, other internal engine damage occurred with the "BANG" I described earlier, then its off to the junk yard.

I don't claim to be a mechanic---I appreciate all responses to my post. ITS ALL FUN.

Rebel
 
  #23  
Old 09-15-10, 07:22 AM
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broke Buick

Im going to go out on a limb here and say there wont be any internal damage. Keep us posted.
 
  #24  
Old 09-15-10, 09:31 AM
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I have to agree about the rod, more times than not, the engine will be fine, especially since the starter let loose. yes, poor design in the EGR jacket of intake. Replace it with new design and move on =)

As one of the few decent ASE techs working for GM for over 10yrs; I take that to heart I will admit that unfortunately our dealer(cheap owner really)doesnt always have the right diagnostic tools for some cars, but when it comes to it I do know GM better because I've always been a GM fan and I 've worked for them so long. However; I do what I can to not shy away from any other work. I may think it sucks the way other manufacturers do things, but none of them do things all that right in the techs eyes. I may flop like a fish on some things, but I like the experience and the challenge. Most just want that quick buck, not something they have to diagnose. And somehow they always end up getting the higher wages instead of the hard worker...hmmm
Oh, and come on guys; ASE certs are great....when you decide to search for another job!

Originally Posted by ASE MASTER View Post
ecman51,

(Question) What about ASE certified mechanics, at the dealer?

What about them? It’s possible to find one, two, or five decent ASE mechanics at a dealership, but the problem is they only know how to fix the vehicles for the dealership they work for. In other words, a Ford mechanic can only fix Fords, and a Chevy mechanic can only fix Chevy’s, (etc etc). It’s like a doctor telling you; “I can’t treat you because you’re a male, and I only treat females".

But, don’t take my word for it. Stop by a Hyundai dealership and discuss the bucking problem your Dodge has with an alleged “ASE” mechanic. Don’t be surprised if he tells you the problem is being caused by a long over due oil change and the need to rotate the tires.

Ask him how to confirm spark delivery on a moving vehicle?

Ask him if he knows the difference between “Fuel Pressure and “Fuel Volume?

Ask him to explain how one impacts the other?

Ask him to explain, why on a vehicle that leaks water in the rain, why (7 times out of 10) the water always leaks onto the front right (passenger side) of the vehicle?

An “ASE Certification” is just a piece of paper. You can’t learn this business in a classroom. Without practical and field experience an “ASE Certification” is only good as try liner for your parrots cage. There’s just no substitute for experience.
 
  #25  
Old 09-15-10, 07:39 PM
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Diezel,

Something tells me you’re like me. Old school, with enough certifications to open a wallpaper factory. A lot of times I stand in the middle of the room and just look at the 4 walls. Thing is I can’t see any wall. All I see is paper. Then I say to myself; “Well guy you’re 80 years, so what does all this mean"?

Anyway buddy good luck on your “Recerts”. I passed mine with one eye closed and one arm tied behind my back. Got a feeling you’ll do the same. Just want to bring you up to speed on something. “ASE” has a new meaning. From what I’ve heard, there is even a question on the “Recert” exam where you now have to define “ASE”.

“ASE” used to mean;

Ask Someone Else (Because I don’t know).

But now, new meaning is;

Automobiles Scraped Expertly


Semper Fidelis
Sam
 
  #26  
Old 09-16-10, 02:38 AM
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Dissrespected...

Dont take it heart. There really isnt a reason to. I still very fondly remember my First day as a "Professional" tech. I spent most of the day in Panic, wondering to myself if I was actually as good a mechanic as I thought. Did I actually belong here?? The other guys had been there for years, It was a family owned business, passed down from Grandparents, and was "Relatively" successful.They Had the "Wall Of Fame" in the front office, With Certificates, Local Consumer awards, and a Picture or two with some Celebrities.
After A week or so....I didnt have to panic anymore, and I never looked back. Any of the "OLDER" guys will tell you. This business is broken into percentages. 60% experience, 30% aptitude, and 10 % ability. As for the experience....90% common sense, 10 % knowledge.
Not to bash anyone, but this post is the pefect example. The Main purpose of DIY is to save a buck. But, the who , what , why and when of changing out a manifold gasket is costing this guy dearly. Why should it be changed? What makes it bad? why did it go bad? How can I stop it from going bad again?.. ANyone can swap out a manifold gasket, but until those questions are answered, The job isnt complete, and you have likely wasted your time and money.
With My Manufacturer, we currently have a TSB for "Water Pump " leakage, which requires an inferior casted pump be replaced. Well,,,This one particular vehicle has been back 4 times for a coolant leak, and had 3 pumps replaced. EAch tech that looked at the car, pulled the TSB and replaced the pump, without EVER looking at the broken CLAMP at the water inlet!!!!!
And These techs are ALL ASE CERTIFIED......This business just CANNOT BE DONE ON PAPER.
SAM....
A Doctor, a lawyer, and a mechanic walk into a restaurant. The waiter comes over, and says, Oh hello Dr miller, right this way, we have reserved the fireplace table for you. A few moments later the waiter returns and says Good evening Counselor, we have reserved the table overlooking the bay for you, right this way. After a few more moments, the waiter returns with the manager, who says Im sorry, but the dishwasher position has been filled, but your welcome to fill out an application anyway....
Just in case youre still wondering what it was all worth
 

Last edited by Unclediezel; 09-16-10 at 04:41 AM.
  #27  
Old 09-16-10, 04:20 AM
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Ah, I didn't really take it to heart. Just pointing out "we" dont all suck This business is just so "political" in shops anymore. More about who's taking care of who instead of everything being even and worrying about the customer. See it everywhere in this field. Thats my main gripe, and that I'm not greedy or think i can go somewhere and ask for more $ than anyone should be worth. just a bite in the butt when you know certain people you work with are horrible but they jump from place to place asking for another dollar or 2 each time. I'm glad we can help someone out. I know law was trying to be passed to stop people from doing anymore than brakes and oil changes at home, and as much as I need the money and a job; I feel that is alienating me from working on things at home too(that could just be a PA law-not sure now, thought federal).
Anyway, good luck on the intake!
By the way, you think someone would've looked at the history and went, "hmm...." It happens from time to time.
"With My Manufacturer, we currently have a TSB for "Water Pump " leakage, which requires an inferior casted pump be replaced. Well,,,This one particular vehicle has been back 4 times for a coolant leak, and had 3 pumps replaced. EAch tech that looked at the car, pulled the TSB and replaced the pump, without EVER looking at the broken CLAMP at the water inlet!!!!!
And These techs are ALL ASE CERTIFIED......This business just CANNOT BE DONE ON PAPER. "
 
  #28  
Old 09-16-10, 05:06 AM
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Actually, That was what my svc Manager said to me when I got the car. "Its not a pump, Cause I have 3 "CHARGEBACK" slips on my desk". Now...FIX IT!

Before this gets way off topic, I'll start a new thread.
 
  #29  
Old 09-16-10, 09:36 AM
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Attachment

Well I can't post the attachment, I even contacted the Admin and got no response. Too bad, a picture is worth a thousand words. Ordered the Dorman intake--receive date 09-21-10---soooo I go fishin' and think of you guys.

Rebel
 
  #30  
Old 09-22-10, 03:22 AM
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Update

I installed the new intake manifold including new injector
o rings. Engine cranks ok, BUT the sad news engine will not start. I will trouble shoot the old fashioned way--spark, fuel, and air 'cause I don't have any diagnostic tools.
 
  #31  
Old 09-22-10, 04:38 AM
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Rule blown fuses, circuit breakers, and fusible links.
Confirm a circuit to the “ECM”.
Confirm injectors are firing.
Confirm wiring, especially grounds.
Rule out serious vacuum leak.

Spray carburetor cleaner (not Starting fluid) into the intake. If engine starts (or sounds like it wants to start) then problem is with fuel delivery and volume.
 
  #32  
Old 09-23-10, 01:46 PM
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: USA
Posts: 86
Thumbs down Close but no cigar!!

ukrbyk//ASE:

Checked all fuses, links, and breakers---no problems. Checked spark, fuel delivery, and air--no problems. Removed plugs--all wet--cleaned plugs, cranked engine w/o plugs--re-installed plugs--cranked engine--no start. Removed plugs--still wet. Cleaned plugs--used vac to try vacuum @ plug holes. Re-installed plugs--cranked engine--got a few "hits", but would not start. Removed plugs--still wet.

Next, I am going to devise a small tube to my shop vac and try to introduce air into the cylinders via the spark plug holes. Hopefully the air and heat from the shop vac will dry the combustion chamber enough for a START.

Hope to try it this week end, BUT I might go sailing if the seas and wind are right. I will post results until I get the thing started or take it to the junk yard.

Rebel
 
  #33  
Old 09-24-10, 07:43 AM
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: North Central Indiana
Posts: 912
broke buick

A new set of plugs might be in order.
 
  #34  
Old 09-24-10, 12:10 PM
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Join Date: Aug 2010
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Posts: 560
Rebel,

I’m trying to help you, but you insist on doing things your own way. Until you get it right and start listening, don’t expect to have this problem fixed anytime soon. All you’ve done so far is replace the manifold the wrong manifold. In other words the manifold you bought from “Dorman” is right for the car,

BUT IT DOES NOT ADDRESS THE TSB.

Twice I told you to follow the TSB. In my career I’ve resolved the coolant issue you are facing thousands of times, by simply following the TSB.

YOU MUST PURCHASE ALL THE PARTS ON THIS TSB FROM THE DEALER

Not “Dorman”, “Napa” or any other aftermarket company. This is my final attempt at trying to help you. For your convenience I’m positing the entire TSB.


Bulletin No.: 01-06-01-007A

Date: July, 2001

TECHNICAL

Subject:

Engine Coolant Consumption or Coolant Leak

(Inspect For Material Degradation/Replace Intake Manifolds)

Models:

1995-1997 Buick Riviera
1995-1998 Buick LeSabre, Park Avenue
1996-1998 Buick Regal
1998 Chevrolet Lumina, Monte Carlo
1995-1996 Oldsmobile Ninety-Eight
1995-1998 Oldsmobile Eighty-Eight
1998 Oldsmobile Intrigue
1995-1998 Pontiac Bonneville
1997-1998 Pontiac Grand Prix
with 3.8L Engine (VIN K - RPO L36)

This bulletin is being revised to correct parts and labor operation usage. Please discard Corporate Bulletin Number 01-06-01-007 (Section 6 - Engine/Propulsion System).

Condition

Some owners may comment on excessive engine coolant consumption, or an engine coolant leak near or under the throttle body area of the upper intake manifold.

Cause

Upper intake manifold composite material may degrade around the EGR stove pipe and could result in an internal or external coolant leak.

Correction

1. Follow the upper intake manifold removal instructions found in the Engine Unit Repair Section of the Service Information Manual.


2. Refer to the arrow in the illustration of the upper intake manifold above. Inspect the inner diameter of the EGR passage for signs of material degradation. Degradation will appear as "pitting" of the composite material in the EGR port passage.


3. If degradation of upper intake manifold composite material is found, replace the lower and upper intake manifolds with the following part numbers:

^Lower Intake - 24508923


^Upper Intake - 17113136 (includes necessary upper intake plenum gaskets)

^Lower Intake Gasket - 12537197



4. Follow the lower and upper intake manifold installation instructions found in the Engine Unit Repair Section of the appropriate Service Manual.


5. If degradation is not apparent, skip to Step 7.


6. Verify the repair.


7. If no degradation is found, evaluate the vehicle for other causes of excessive coolant consumption as noted in the Engine Diagnosis Section of the appropriate Service Manual.

Parts Information

Parts are currently available from GMSPO.


SECOND SAMPLE BULLETIN

Engine Oil or Coolant Leak (Install New Intake
Manifold Gasket) # 03-06-01-010B - (10/24/2003)


Engine Oil or Coolant Leak (Install New Intake Manifold Gasket)

2000-2003 Buick Century

2002-2003 Buick Rendezvous

1996 Chevrolet Lumina APV

1997-2003 Chevrolet Venture

1999-2001 Chevrolet Lumina

1999-2003 Chevrolet Malibu, Monte Carlo

2000-2003 Chevrolet Impala

1996-2003 Oldsmobile Silhouette

1999 Oldsmobile Cutlass

1999-2003 Oldsmobile Alero

1996-1999 Pontiac Trans Sport

1999-2003 Pontiac Grand Am, Montana

2000-2003 Pontiac Grand Prix

2001-2003 Pontiac Aztek

with 3.1L or 3.4L V-6 Engine (VINs J, E - RPOs LG8, LA1)

This bulletin is being revised to change the model Information. Please discard Corporate Bulletin Number 03-06-01-O10A (Section 06 - Engine).


Condition

Some owners may comment on an apparent oil or coolant leak. Additionally, the comments may range from spots on the driveway to having to add fluids.

Cause

Intake manifold may be leaking allowing coolant, oil or both to leak from the engine.

Correction

Install a new design intake manifold gasket. The material used in the gasket has been changed in order to improve the sealing qualities of the gasket. When replacing the gasket, the intake manifold bolts must also be replaced and torqued to a revised specification. The new bolts will come with a pre-applied threadlocker on them.

Notice

An oil leak may result if the vertical bolts are not tightened before the diagonal bolts.


Diagonal bolts may require a crows foot to tighten.

Tighten

1. Tighten the vertical lower intake manifold bolts (1) to 7 N.m (62 lb in).

2. Tighten the diagonal lower intake manifold bolts (2) to 7 N.m (62 lb in).

3. Tighten the vertical lower intake manifold bolts (1) to 13 N.m (115 lb in).

4. Tighten the diagonal lower intake manifold bolts (2) to 25 N.m (18 lb ft).

Parts Information

Parts are currently available from GMSPO.


THIRD SAMPLE BULLETIN

File In Section: 06 - Engine/Propulsion System

Bulletin No.: 03-06-01-016

Date: May, 2003

TECHNICAL

Subject:
Loss of Coolant, Milky Colored Oil
(Replace Intermediate Intake Gasket)


Models:

2000-2003 Buick LeSabre, Park Avenue, Regal
2000-2003 Chevrolet Impala, Monte Carlo
2000-2003 Pontiac Bonneville
2000-2003 Pontiac Grand Prix
with 3.8L V6 Engine (VIN K - RPO L36)

Built Prior to the VIN Breakpoints shown.

Condition

Some owners may comment on a loss of coolant, coolant odor, having to add coolant or a milky substance on either the oil dipstick or oil fill cap. Additionally, owners may indicate that there are signs of coolant loss left on the ground where the vehicle is normally parked.

Cause

Condition may be due to coolant leaking past intermediate intake or throttle body gaskets.

Correction

Important: The upper intake manifold should not be replaced for a coolant leak condition, unless a rare instance of physical damage is found. Even if the throttle body surface shows a slight warpage, the upper intake should not be replaced unless a drivability concern is noted or a relevant engine DTC, such as a code for an unmetered air leak, is set and the upper intake manifold can clearly be shown as the cause of the concern.


Thoroughly check for any external leaks. If no external leaks are found, then replace the intermediate intake manifold gasket and the throttle body gasket. When changing the throttle body gasket, the nuts that retain the throttle body should be replaced with a new design that improves torque retention. Medium strength thread locker should be applied to the studs before installing the new nuts.

Parts Information

Parts are currently available from GMSPO.


FOURTH SAMPLE BULLETIN

Bulletin No.: 04-06-01-017

Date: May 26, 2004

INFORMATION

Subject:
New Upper Intake Manifold and Gasket Kits


Models:
1995-1997 Buick Riviera
1995-2004 Buick Park Avenue
1996-2004 Buick Regal
1997-2004 Buick LeSabre
1998-1999 Chevrolet Lumina
1998-2004 Chevrolet Monte Carlo
2000-2004 Chevrolet Impala
1995-1996 Oldsmobile Ninety-Eight
1995-1999 Oldsmobile Eighty-Eight
1998-1999 Oldsmobile Intrigue
1995-2004 Pontiac Bonneville
1997-2003 Pontiac Grand Prix
with 3.8L V6 Engine (VIN K - RPO L36)


New upper intake manifold and gasket kits have been released. These new kits will provide the dealer with the ability to get exactly what is necessary for a correct repair. In addition some of the gaskets have been updated to a more robust design. Please reference the part numbers when ordering from GMSPO.
 
  #35  
Old 09-27-10, 01:12 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: USA
Posts: 86
Cool Buick runs..

Thanx to all who posted to my query:

Buick started.

Rebel
 
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