timing belt broke prematurely

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  #1  
Old 10-21-10, 10:19 PM
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timing belt broke prematurely

The timing belt broke on my '92 Honda Accord again, after having it replaced only one year and two months ago. No excessive miles being driven, or abnormal driving habits otherwise. Why did it break again, so soon like this? What could be a likely reason?
 
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  #2  
Old 10-22-10, 04:54 AM
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Do you know what all was replaced when they replaced the timing belt a year ago? Was it a complete kit containing balance shaft belt, seals, water pump, tensioners etc. Before the most recent belt broke did you notice any oil dripping from the engine?
 
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Old 10-22-10, 05:13 AM
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Also,

Were "OE" or cheap aftermarket market parts used? On a 92 Honda Accord only "OE" parts should be used.

Was the job done at a private shop or a dealer?

What was the level of skill of the person who did the job?
 
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Old 10-22-10, 08:13 AM
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Originally Posted by equinox View Post
Do you know what all was replaced when they replaced the timing belt a year ago? Was it a complete kit containing balance shaft belt, seals, water pump, tensioners etc. Before the most recent belt broke did you notice any oil dripping from the engine?
Looking at the receipt/job invoice, it lists two separate timing belts, a water pump, and another entry with just a part number vs503656 (but not a name of the part) with cost shown as $47. And yes, before this most recent belt broke we had been noticing oil dripping from the engine. My brother-in-laws mechanic friend looked at it and determined it was leaking from a seal and we had plans to get that fixed.
 
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Old 10-22-10, 08:20 AM
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Originally Posted by ASE MASTER View Post
Were "OE" or cheap aftermarket market parts used? On a 92 Honda Accord only "OE" parts should be used. Was the job done at a private shop or a dealer? What was the level of skill of the person who did the job?
Job was done at a local private shop, known to do quality work by skilled/certified mechanics. Not sure at this time whether OE parts were used.
 
  #6  
Old 10-22-10, 11:42 AM
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Never mind, it's not a broken timing belt after all. Upon inspection, it's a broken camshaft. Broken timing belt was just a first assumption, but it's not that.
 

Last edited by sgull; 10-22-10 at 01:30 PM. Reason: belt not chain!
  #7  
Old 10-22-10, 12:59 PM
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sgull,

(Quote) Broken timing chain was just a first assumption.

(Quote) A local private shop, known to do quality work by skilled/certified mechanics


Well, Iíve been spinning wrenches for 66 years. Since Iím a super, great, master mechanic, it would be impossible for even me to break the timing chain in your car. The simple fact is that something has to exist inside an engine before it can be broken.

Your car has a TIMING BELT not a TIMING CHAIN.

Furthermore

Has your mechanic told you that the engine in your Accord is an interference engine?

Has your mechanic explained to you exactly what an interference engine means in terms of broken timing belt?

When changing the timing belt on your Accord

If all the parts below are not changed, and if aftermarket parts are used instead of ďOEĒ parts, the job was done incorrectly.

Cam belt (timing belt)

Cam tensioner assembly

Cam Seal

Crankshaft Seal

Balance shaft belt (what you refer to as the second timing belt)

Balance shaft tensioner assembly

Water pump


Tell us in detail how the camshaft managed to break, and how it was determined (what tests were done) to determine that the camshaft is broken?

Do you race this car?
Is the engine stock?
Are you running nitrous oxide on a stock engine?
Has the engine been re-worked?
If yes, what work was done to it?
 
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Old 10-22-10, 01:29 PM
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ASE Master,

Sorry I merely said timing chain, when I meant to say belt. And, yes the mechanic did explain that the engine is an interference engine. and also explained what an interference engine means in terms of a broken timing belt. No I don't race the car. Yes the engine is stock. No haven't been running nitrous on it. Not sure what you mean by whether engine has been re-worked, but probably not re-worked in the terms you mean. Don't know how the camshaft managed to break. As far as I know at this time, the broken camshaft was seen upon inspection, and that's how it was determined it was broken. I'll fill you in on more details as they might become available. Note: my previous post now corrected, thanks.
 
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Old 10-22-10, 02:12 PM
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sgull,

This forum exists to help individuals like you. My colleagues and I are here to make sure hard working, honest people are not ripped off simply because they are not professional mechanics.

(Quote) Upon inspection, it's a broken camshaft.

Were you there to observe the inspection?

Inspection means that, about half your engine had to be taken apart to reveal the broken camshaft.

Did you witness the taking apart of your engine, or were you told over the phone that the camshaft is broken?

There are countless other questions. Rather than post them all, have your mechanic log onto this [I]forum [/I](on youíre behalf) and post pictures of the alleged broken camshaft.

Thereís a few proís here who would love to see those pictures.:
 
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Old 10-22-10, 02:33 PM
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No I personally wasn't there to observe the inspection. The car is out of town, with my brother-in-law, who told me he saw the head after it had been removed from the car and was on the mechanic's bench,with the broken camshaft revealed (about half the engine apart, as mentioned). I spoke with the mechanic, who said the broken camshaft was likely caused by a leaking oil seal that had gone un-repaired for so long that the lack of lubrication in that area caused the brass (or bronze I can't remember exactly) bushing to wear to the point where the stress or whatever finally just caused the camshaft to finally break. That's pretty close to how he explained it. The car should not have continued to be driven so long while that oil seal leaked. There is no question that the camshaft is indeed broken, and no one is lying about that.
 
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Old 10-22-10, 06:08 PM
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(Quote) caused the brass (or bronze I can't remember exactly) bushing to wear

Hey guy's.
I'm about to burst.
Talk about shooting your load.
Any takers on the brass or bronze controversy?
 
  #12  
Old 10-22-10, 06:12 PM
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Well, beside the fact that the head is junk, upon full dissassembly , you will likely find ...

At the journal just prior to the break, the camshaft is siezed in the bore....
And yes..lack of lubrication is the first thing that comes to mind. It does happen, but Snapping a camshaft is not an easy task, and this engine undoubtedly made one heck of a racket before it quit.....
 
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Old 10-22-10, 06:20 PM
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I've seen where a camshaft has welded inside (no oil) and caused the vehicle to come to an unplanned stop, without breaking the camshaft.
 
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Old 10-22-10, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by ASE MASTER View Post
(Quote) caused the brass (or bronze I can't remember exactly) bushing to wear

Hey guy's.
I'm about to burst.
Talk about shooting your load.
Any takers on the brass or bronze controversy?
What is the controversy, if I might ask?
Is it the lack of knowledge of the material? Is it expected everyone who is not a full-fledged mechanic, to know what the material is?
 
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Old 10-22-10, 06:27 PM
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ecman51 and diezel,

Good points. But I'm talking specifically about a brass or bronze bushing. Again we are talking about a 92 Honda Accord.
 
  #16  
Old 10-22-10, 06:33 PM
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I've seen where a camshaft has welded inside (no oil) and caused the vehicle to come to an unplanned stop, without breaking the camshaft.
Typically, the belt should have given up first.....

As for Controversy...... If I recall, There are no Cam bushings, Unlike HOV engines with the cam down the center of the block, Either the cam fits thru a finished bore in the head, or it has "Bolt down caps, which are machined and finished to the correct diameter, Eliminating the need for "Bearings"
 
  #17  
Old 10-22-10, 10:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Unclediezel View Post
Well, beside the fact that the head is junk, upon full dissassembly , you will likely find ...

At the journal just prior to the break, the camshaft is siezed in the bore....
And yes..lack of lubrication is the first thing that comes to mind. It does happen, but Snapping a camshaft is not an easy task, and this engine undoubtedly made one heck of a racket before it quit.....
Yes, we're in the process of locating a rebuilt head now to replace the junked one. And the mechanic's description to me matches pretty closely to how you mention the camshaft probably seized in the bore, as I recall.
 
  #18  
Old 10-22-10, 11:54 PM
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I came upon some interesting and possibly relevant info while web surfing, relating to the seized camshaft issue (copied below):

"Seized Camshafts On
1990-99 Honda 2.2L Engines

The AERA Technical Committee offers information that may reduce the possibility of seized camshafts on 1990-99 Honda 2.2L engines. This engine uses a metered oil supply to the cylinder head by means of a restrictor located in the deck of the cylinder block. Through time, the small hole in this restrictor may become partially blocked and limit the amount of oil flow to the cylinder head. Eventually, after many engine starts, a dry start condition may exist and cause a journal to score its camshaft bore. Some AERA members are increasing the opening size of this oil restrictor anytime the cylinder head is removed from the block. Drilling the existing restrictor to .062 (1.575 mm) in size will increase the volume of oil to the cylinder head and camshaft. This should not overwhelm the cylinder head with oil, providing all other oil clearances are within specifications. This procedure has been done many times and should help prevent a seized camshaft journal in this head. Using heavier viscosity engine oil than called for can also be detrimental, as it does not flow quickly in colder ambient temperatures."
 
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Old 10-23-10, 11:32 AM
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Thumbs up

sgull:
Post #18 is interesting.
1. Don't these Accords have OH Cams in them??

If the restrictor bore was plugged this likely would have happened long ago.
If the bushings brass or bronze were this worn, major noise should have been heard.
How often is the oil/filter changed?? 3000 miles max for normal oil. Was this done for the life of the motor??
Are the pulleys on the engine aligned correctly? You've broken way too many belts for this to be normal. You should get 60,000 Miles or 100,000 km's min from a quality belt.
 
  #20  
Old 10-23-10, 11:38 AM
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Square Head,

If you reread posts #6 and 16, this might clear up 2 issues regarding what you say in your post.
 
  #21  
Old 10-23-10, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Square Head View Post
How often is the oil/filter changed?? 3000 miles max for normal oil. Was this done for the life of the motor?
Oil/filter has been routinely changed every 3000, with normal oil, for the life of the motor. I bought the car new in '92 and have always made sure that service was performed at that interval (or at least very close to it). If I understood him correcly, the mechanic looking it now has suggested that because of the seal leaking (as has been mentioned) over time this could have caused inadequate lubrication at the particular location of which if that was the case would have contributed/caused the camshaft seizure/breakage.
 
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Old 10-23-10, 12:16 PM
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I wonder if studies have been done that actually confirm that engines will last longer, or substantially longer, if you change the oil every 3,000 as opposed to say every 7500, especially on cars that see lots of highway mileage, and the oil doesn't seem to get very dirty.
 
  #23  
Old 10-23-10, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by ecman51` View Post
I wonder if studies have been done that actually confirm that engines will last longer, or substantially longer, if you change the oil every 3,000 as opposed to say every 7500, especially on cars that see lots of highway mileage, and the oil doesn't seem to get very dirty.
Actually I do recall seeing a report/article recently of such studies that have indicated that for most typical highway type driving that 3000 mile interval oil change recommendations are over-emphasized and that with decent quality oil every 3000 miles is unnecessary. But I'll probably continue to do so anyway. Never know what to believe. Could probably start a discussion about it and have arguments both ways about it all day but thats no fun.
 
  #24  
Old 10-25-10, 08:06 AM
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The oil arguments vis-a-vis brands, viscosities, intervals, dino vs syn, and every other argument under the sun have been kicked around here ad nauseum many times so let's skip that.
 
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Old 10-25-10, 01:19 PM
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(Quote) Upon inspection, it's a broken camshaft.

(Quote) Don't know how the camshaft managed to break.

(Quote) As far as I know at this time, the broken camshaft was seen upon inspection, and that's how it was determined it was broken.

(Quote) My brother-in-law, who told me he saw the head after it had been removed from the car and was on the mechanic's bench, with the broken camshaft revealed

(Quote) I spoke with the mechanic, who said the broken camshaft

(Quote) caused the brass (or bronze I can't remember exactly) bushing to wear to the point where the stress or whatever finally just caused the camshaft to finally break.

(Quote) There is no question that the camshaft is indeed broken


(Quote) And the mechanic's description to me matches pretty closely to how you mention the camshaft probably seized in the bore, as I recall.

Your 8 quotes in red clearly state a broken camshaft. The last quote in blue states the camshaft seized.

So which one is it?
Broken implies at least in 2 pieces.


Just want to be sure youíre not being misled. Big difference between broken and seized. More on seized camshafts in Honda Accords, when Iím not so busy. Keep checking back from time to time for up dated repair information, and controversy explanation.
 
  #26  
Old 10-25-10, 03:01 PM
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sgull,

If your camshaft is seized and (not broken), it seized as per below. You should print this out and show it to your mechanic as well. Undoubtedly, it will prove to be a valuable learning tool.

The engine in your Accord uses a restrictor located in the deck of the cylinder block to meter oil flow to the cylinder head. By design the restrictor is too small, and with just normal use (and over time) the restrictor will become partially blocked and limit the flow of oil to the cylinder head. Eventually the lack of lubrication will cause a camshaft journal to score its camshaft bore and seize. Have a qualified mechanic (or engine builder) drill the existing restrictor to .062˝( 1.575mm). This will increase oil flow to the cylinder head and camshaft. It is critical that all other oil clearances are within specifications. If not, enlarging the restrictor will not prevent a seized camshaft. Never use heavier viscosity engine oil than what the engine calls for. Doing so will cause engine damage, because a heavier oil will not flow as quickly in colder ambient temperatures.


More is coming. Keep checking back.
 
  #27  
Old 10-26-10, 04:42 AM
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sgull,

Again, print this out and show it to your mechanic.

Balance Shaft Seal Issues For
1990-99 Honda 1.5, 1.6, 2.2 & 2.3L Engines


The oil seal used for the front of the balance shaft can get dislodged, thus causing engine oil loss. In severe cases, engine damage will result before the leak is diagnosed. Seal retention is unstable on these engines, and the seal can move within its housing at any time. To resolve this issue, installing a retainer clip inside the seal housing will help prevent seal movement. The repair involves removing the front timing belt cover and installing the retainer clip. Use seal (Honda part number) #TN 07XAF-PT00100. The seal comes furnished with the retainer clip. It is necessary to install the seal deeper in the timing cover to allow room for the retainer clip.


More info coming just keep watching for it
 
  #28  
Old 10-26-10, 04:56 AM
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Be tactful about approaching your mechanic with information that he may very well already be in possession or knowledge of. It's often difficult to judge a person's qualifications via third party/third hand telling of conversations/work being done. No need to have a PO'd mechanic on your hands.
 
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