F250 pickup

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  #1  
Old 10-25-10, 04:10 AM
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F250 pickup

I have a 1991 F250 pickup that will not start. the fuel pump runs continuously. I have replaced the fuel pump and the pressure regulator with no luck. any suggestions?
 
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  #2  
Old 10-25-10, 11:18 AM
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is it possible that you crossed the power & ground wires at the pump?
(the pump is running backwards)

the pump should only run for 2 seconds-on each key cycle
 
  #3  
Old 10-25-10, 04:20 PM
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ok...

Get in the truck....watch the dash , and turn the key on..(Dont crank).....

Does the "Check Engine Lamp" light up???? If not , ECA is not powered up, and you will have no spark, fuel or Injector pulse.

If I recall, r/s inner fender, about 8 inches forward of the firewall, is a relay Pack , with ECA and Fuel pump relays....Make sure the holder isnt Rotted and full of water....They were designed in a Horrible spot.....
 
  #4  
Old 10-26-10, 03:11 PM
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Its strange I shot starting fluid into the breather hose and cranked it and it started. it has no power it boggs down and backfires. will not get above 1500 RPM in drive
 
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Old 10-26-10, 03:18 PM
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(Quote) the fuel pump runs continuously. I have replaced the fuel pump and the pressure regulator with no luck. any suggestions?

Yes

I'm sorry to hear you wasted your time and money on the changing of parts that weren't defective in the first place.

For the future you should never change a part until it is checked and proved defective.

The first place you should have turned your troubleshooting efforts to should have been the fuel defective fuel pump relay
(that's getting hung closed).
 
  #6  
Old 10-27-10, 01:44 PM
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I checked the fuel pump relay with a ohm meter and the contacts are open. with the relay pulled I have 12 v on both the smaller and large connector pins. could something else be making the power to the relay stay on?
 
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Old 10-27-10, 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by kwnw989 View Post
I checked the fuel pump relay with a ohm meter and the contacts are open. with the relay pulled I have 12 v on both the smaller and large connector pins. could something else be making the power to the relay stay on?
This is normal.....The ECA "Grounds" the relay to activate it.

See my post above......Does the C/E lamp light up with the key on , engine off.?????

Find the EEC test connector......The "Short side" of the connector ( Its been a long time, but I'm thinking Green w/Yellow tracer) is the fuel pump Driver line......Check that wire for a short to ground.

Just out of curiousity , If the pump runs continuously, why is the battery not dead???? Or is this only with the ignition ON?
 
  #8  
Old 10-27-10, 05:17 PM
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fuel pump runs cont.this is only with ignition on.
there are three relays in the holder where the fuel pump relay is. which one would be the ECA?
the check engine light has not worked for a long time I have owned the truck for 5 years and never seen it come on even with the key on engine off.
will look at the EEC test connector tomorrow thank you.
 
  #9  
Old 10-27-10, 06:05 PM
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there are three relays in the holder where the fuel pump relay is. which one would be the ECA?
If these are original, fuel pump is green, eca is either brown or gray, and A/C control would be black...(Just a hint....There is a red feed wire or "JUMPER" running from ECA to Fuel pump relay)

As for the fuel pump running continuously....Sorry I misunderstood....
BUT....Until you find the root cause of the No Start....Put that fact on the "BAck Burner" for now.....

Just for giggles......Remove the SPOUT conector and see if it starts.....(The little "Jumper" in the distributor harness)...
 
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Old 10-27-10, 06:06 PM
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Just to elaborate a bit, and put the issue into perspective. The ECA (electronic control assembly), is the same as the ECM (electronic control module). In others words….What everyone calls “(The Computer). It’s as “diesel” stated. The ECA "Grounds" the relay to activate it.

In other words:

Grounding the relay means closing the circuit to the relay. One leg of the relay is already receiving 12 volts, so (when called upon and necessary) the computer will furnish a negative pulse to the relay, thus completing the circuit to the relay. This causes the relay to latch and complete the circuit. However, you should note, that after the latching of the relay, the job of the computer is done.


In other words

If the relay continues to stay latched (after the computer has done it’s job) then the issue is with the relay and not the ECA (computer). Hence my response:
a fuel pump relay that's getting hung closed.
 
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Old 10-27-10, 06:16 PM
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Sam,

The Earlier stuff didnt "LATCH". The ground was maintained until RPM was lost, or Key-on Power was lost. These were just basic 4 wire relays in a cute little Ford Designed Shape. Pos and Neg coil...and IN/OUT. There was possibly a Fifth pin for "Relay at Rest" or "Pass-thru"...but something this early , really had no use for it.
 
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Old 10-27-10, 07:06 PM
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diezel.
Hey buddy.
Are we having fun yet?


(Quote)The Earlier stuff didnt "LATCH".

(Quote) The ground was maintained until RPM was lost,


If the earlier stuff didn’t latch, then what maintained the ground until the rpm was lost?

(Question) Just out of curiosity, if the pump runs continuously, why is the battery not dead???? Or is this only with the ignition ON?

Excellent question buddy, but don’t hold your breath waiting for an
answer. Hair will have to grow on your teeth before you see an answer to that one. (Again where did ground come from).

Could mean we’re looking at a failed ECM or failed relay?[COLOR="red"] (Have to factor in the weakest link syndrome). [/COLOR ]In which case could mean a relay.

Now wouldn’t be a kick in the head if it turned out to be a wiring/circuit issue that closes to ground?
 
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Old 10-27-10, 07:44 PM
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If the earlier stuff didn’t latch, then what maintained the ground until the rpm was lost?
ECA.......

In Theory, if the relay were of the "Latching Type"..(Rear defogger or time Delay)....If you were to cut the ground , or "Trigger" wire, the relay "SHOULD" stay enabled....

The ECA itself is responsible for latching the circuit in the "Closed To Ground" state, thru internal logic.....But the actual electro-mechanical operation of the relay (Electro magnet and "Drawbridge") is still basic ON/OFF.
Are we having fun yet?
Absolutely
 
  #14  
Old 10-28-10, 12:08 PM
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sorry for the delayed responses too many irons in the fire.
bought & replaced fuel pump relay no change.
ordered new EEC (ECA?) relay none in stock . due sat. 1:00 PM
looked for short in fuel pump test wire so far no sign of visible short checked test wire to ground with OHM meter key off and shows some resistance not completely open not dead short. not sure what is normal.
thanks again I appreciate your responses.
not as much fun for meas for you guys
 
  #15  
Old 10-28-10, 03:12 PM
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sorry for the delayed responses too many irons in the fire.
Not a problem.
bought & replaced fuel pump relay no change.
ordered new EEC (ECA?) relay none in stock . due sat. 1:00 PM
Stop Spending MONEY ON STUFF THAT HAS NOT BEEN PROVEN DEFECTIVE
looked for short in fuel pump test wire so far no sign of visible short checked test wire to ground with OHM meter key off and shows some resistance not completely open not dead short. not sure what is normal.
Toss the Ohmeter for this one....A plain old $2 12 volt circuit tester is your best friend here......
not as much fun for meas for you guys
Probably why we chose to do it for a living.....GOD KNOWS IT ISNT FOR THE MONEY!!!!!
 
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Old 10-29-10, 06:54 PM
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(ASE asked) If the earlier stuff didn’t latch, then what maintained the ground until the rpm was lost?

(Diezel answered) ECA.......

Yes, but consider this. (could very well be what is taking place here). In terms of furnishing a ground pulse the ECA has done its job, and for all practical purposes is now out of the picture.

Driver parks his car for the night (rpm lost).

Drawbridge in relay maintains to ground, due to coil issue that fails to return drawbridge open.


(Diezel said) In Theory, if the relay were of the "Latching Type"..(Rear defogger or time Delay)....If you were to cut the ground , or "Trigger" wire, the relay "SHOULD" stay enabled....

Yes, but only if the coil is still in good shape. As you well know, with just normal use, and over time a coil can weaken. This can cause the drawbridge to be held incorrectly or in the wrong position.

Example: A cooling fan relay with a coil issue, that causes the fan to run slower than normal.

(Quote) But the actual electro-mechanical operation of the relay (Electro magnet and "Drawbridge") is still basic ON/OFF.


Diezel,

Seems like you and I have been at this to long. It's the great minds syndrome at work. Still basic ON/OFF. is alot like what I'm saying. Mechanical relay failure. I think were on the same page, but were in different books.
 
  #17  
Old 10-29-10, 08:30 PM
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Mechanical relay failure.
Ok, agreed.....But I was thinking along the lines of "Control CKT" failure. The ECA doesnt "Pulse" a ground. The driver Transistor completes a ground path, which is maintained in that state until Rpm is lost, or ECA is powered down, at which time, The path is opened, no current flows to the coil, and The "Return Spring " on the "Draw Bridge" returns the contact to "N.O." rest position.

A failed return spring, or a weak coil, would cause a Mechanical relay failure, where as High resistance in the circuit, or a short to ground, would cause Contact "Chatter", or a relay that doesnt open due to an "Electrical Fault"........Basically where I am going with this, Brings up a term I havent heard in Years....."Exciter" or "Kick" signal, where a momentary source or ground signal is sent to a Contact set, and the contacts close,and remain closed, until the unit either recieves a reverse voltage signal on the same line, or the unit itself is powered down. What we have here, is a switching transistor that provides a continuous path to ground, until internal logic tells him to cease and desist...

OHM meters are nice, multimeters are evn Nicer, But incorrectly translated information , or a lack of understanding to what those numbers mean in a given situation, are Dangerous. I think it best to stick with a Light bulb and Test probe approach,(Circuit Tester , or Test Lamp...Or even a 12vdc Buzzer) which is basically a yes or no answer.
 
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Old 10-30-10, 04:12 AM
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Diezel,

(Quote) Probably why we chose to do it for a living.....GOD KNOWS IT ISNT FOR THE MONEY

You have to be self employed
I owned 3 shops
Got into it for the booze and babes
Chicks eat up smoke outs and wheelies





Kwnw989

(Quote) the check engine light has not worked for a long time I have owned the truck for 5 years and never seen it come on even with the key on engine off.

Forget about the “MIL”. I always tell the people I train to ignore it and do a scan anyway. Most likely just a burned out bulb. On the other hand, if you bought the truck used the seller could have deliberately disconnected the bulb to conceal an issue from the seller. For now do a scan and post any codes. You can deal with the bulb issue after the truck is running. Don’t neglect it and let it go. You have to fix the bulb. You could end up destroying your catalytic converter because you neglected a misfire that you never knew you had.


Repeat a KOEO self-test. If you read the same sequence of 15-19-10-11 or 19-10-15 (code 19 as an On Demand code), the ECM is defective.
 
  #19  
Old 10-30-10, 11:01 AM
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EEC relay came in @ 1:00 PM as scheduled, replaced again no help.
Used 2.39$ light tester to check FP diagnostic lead to ground no light key off or key on.
did a self test KOEO per diagram in Haynes book
volt meter to + batt and STO pin, jumper wire from SRP to STI
turned key on to watch for voltmeter swipes and meter stayed on 12 v constantly.
getting funny feeling abouthttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/sr.../dam_puter.gif
what do you guys think.
 
  #20  
Old 10-30-10, 05:02 PM
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Used 2.39$ light tester to check FP diagnostic lead to ground no light key off or key on.
Sorry.....Clip to (+)........ youre checking for a ground.....Most effectively checked while cranking.....

Yes, Im thinking ECA...BUT.......

VOM "Sweeps" to read codes....Doesnt work if the C/E bulb is removed or Burned -out..

Sam.....The reason I mentioned C/E in the first place is simply this.....

If the lamp is known to function properly....But doesnt come on for "Bulb- Check" ....No spark, no fuel, no INJ pulse......9 times out of 10.. ECA was not powering up, because the ECA relay was corroded due to water run-off down the r/s inner fender and hood "Seam"....To the point where I would look for the C/E lamp before the vehicle was even off the tow truck.....
 
  #21  
Old 10-31-10, 07:15 AM
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kwnw 089,

You’re putting the cart before the horse. In other words proper testing of the ECA has yet to be done, so faulting the ECA for the no start condition is wrong at this time. You’re frustrated, and in the face of frustration people make mistakes, and haphazardly throw parts at a problem till the problem is fixed. Instead, let’s start using some common sense and logic to resolve this issue.

The first thing is to remove the negative battery cable.

Next remove the ECA.

Now examine the wire connector that connects to the ECA. Confirm that the connector itself and the connection at the ECA are making a tight connection that all pin connections are free of oxidation, dirt, grease, and corrosion.

Next examine the ECA case carefully for signs of water damage or entry.

Next remove the ECA covers and remove the circuit boards from the case. Examine the boards carefully for signs of water damage. Look for signs of blown circuits. Smell the boards for signs of burnt circuits.

Just as sure as GOD turned to the MARINES for help in the creation of the earth, I know perfectly well that “VOM Sweeps" to read error codes cannot be done if the “MIL” bulb is removed or burned out.

What surprises me is that fact that I had to be so explicit. When I told you to do a scan and post any error codes, I thought it was understood that the scan would have to be done with a scan tool.

OR

Repair or replace the “MIL” bulb issue, and do “VOM Sweeps” or flash the codes. Click on the links below. The fist one is to buy a scan tool. The second shows all the error code.



Amazon.com: Equus 3145 Ford Digital Code Reader: Automotive: Reviews, Prices & more

EEC-IV Diagnostic Trouble Codes - Diagnose problems in your Ford
 
  #22  
Old 10-31-10, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Unclediezel View Post
Sorry.....Clip to (+)........ youre checking for a ground.....Most effectively checked while cranking.....

Yes, Im thinking ECA...BUT.......

VOM "Sweeps" to read codes....Doesnt work if the C/E bulb is removed or Burned -out..

Sam.....The reason I mentioned C/E in the first place is simply this.....

If the lamp is known to function properly....But doesnt come on for "Bulb- Check" ....No spark, no fuel, no INJ pulse......9 times out of 10.. ECA was not powering up, because the ECA relay was corroded due to water run-off down the r/s inner fender and hood "Seam"....To the point where I would look for the C/E lamp before the vehicle was even off the tow truck.....
sorry, checked FP to + now shows light on key off and light brighter key on light dims some cranking.
didn't know volt sweep wouldn't work if check engine light bulb burnt out. will try to locate check engine light and replace bulb
this seems cheaper than buying code reader
 
  #23  
Old 10-31-10, 04:24 PM
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QUOTE
What surprises me is that fact that I had to be so explicit. When I told you to do a scan and post any error codes, I thought it was understood that the scan would have to be done with a scan tool.

OR

Repair or replace the “MIL” bulb issue, and do “VOM Sweeps” or flash the codes. Click on the links below. The fist one is to buy a scan tool. The second shows all the error code.


many opinions out there on things. the reason I thought I could do a vom sweep was an instructional article on a website that states
"if you are a lost soul that does not have a working engine light or did not install a light into your dash don't fret. you can still get codes. you still need that wire to ground out the STI. now you will need one of the following tools; digital volt meter, analog volt meter test light, or you can hook up any other 12V light that does not draw more than .5 watts max."

not saying I am on my way to purchase EEC-IV yet just saying I am getting a funny feeling about it.
 
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