1993 Grand Prix brakes/lack thereof

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  #1  
Old 11-17-10, 04:05 PM
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1993 Grand Prix brakes/lack thereof

I replaced the two rear calipers (Cardone rebuilds) on my wifes Pontiac a couple days ago...And then the fun began. Bled the system as per accepted practice. RR,LR,RF,LF. Right rear caliper would not seat up on the rotor, I could watch the piston retract back into the bore as soon as the pedal was released. That one went back, got another one. Rebled the system, all 4 corners, and that one stayed up against the rotor. Pedal felt firm, not rock hard but firm. Started the car and the pedal goes to the floor. Rebled and same outcome. So now, I replace the master cylinder (Cardone rebuild). Bench bleed the master, install it on the car, rebleed the system, start the car up and pedal to the floor. Rebled the master on the bench, rebled the system again, pedals firm. While holding my foot on the brake pedal I start the car and the pedal goes to the floor. I'm down 2 1/2 quarts (yes, quarts) of brake fluid so far. Is it the booster causing the problem? I've done lots of brake jobs and I have never had a system not come back for me. No leaks, no swelling hoses, no brakes.
 
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  #2  
Old 11-17-10, 05:13 PM
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You don't state
if ABS or not
I'm thinking
air is trapped
in the modulator
 
  #3  
Old 11-17-10, 06:00 PM
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Well I tried to cover it all...Forgot that one. There is nothing on the car that indicates it has ABS. So, I'm saying not..Thanx!
 
  #4  
Old 11-18-10, 05:25 AM
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You think you got all the air out but you didn’t. Sounds like you have a few tiny little air pockets left in the system. All it takes is one pocket to cause the issue you are describing. The master cylinder is mounted on an angle. Jack up the car till the cylinder is level. Rent a “POWER BLEEDER” and bleed the brakes, following the instructions that come with the bleeder carefully. Post back the results.
 
  #5  
Old 11-18-10, 03:41 PM
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93????...... Is the parking brake still on the caliper?????

Did you ratchet the caliper out before bleeding?????

What may also help during bleeding...Take the cap off of the M/C.....open the rear bleeders, and with a small hammer, tap on the caliper bodies...this will dislodge any air trapped under the worm gear assembly.

Also.....Your parking brake must be operational with this style of caliper....The fluid only acounts for 1/3 of piston travel.....the other 2/3 is mechanical movement by the parking brake cable levers.
 
  #6  
Old 11-18-10, 07:02 PM
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Yes e-brake is on the caliper...And I set and released the e-brake several times until they ratcheted out to meet the rotor. I will give your ideas a go as well as getting a power bleeder. I figure I might as well bleed out all my vehicles and get my rental money's worth! Many thanx to all who contributed, and I will post back when I've tried all your ideas..
 
  #7  
Old 11-20-10, 02:16 PM
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Quick update...Called around and cannot rent a power bleeder, anywhere. Long story short..Back to square one. Decided to build a setup to make bench bleeding faster/easier, so off comes the m/c once again. And it's wet behind there. Back to the store and get another one, set it up, bleed it out and it's wet back in the bore...Now I ordered a new one that won't be in till Monday. They're sure makin it difficult for us back yard wrenches to do our own work....
 
  #8  
Old 11-20-10, 02:21 PM
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I lost count did you
buy 3 or 4 masters?
are you saying all
were defective
with rear leaks?
 
  #9  
Old 11-20-10, 08:50 PM
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I replaced the original m/c. (There may have been nothing wrong with that one.) The one I replaced it with leaked and as of right now this is the second one that leaks. My brother-in-law (lead mechanic for a bakery fleet) told me they stopped buying rebuilt anything from this auto parts chain because after they switched to a different re-manufacturer,(lowest price guaranteed) quality dropped off severely.
 
  #10  
Old 11-21-10, 11:53 AM
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The way this is going I'll be needing and arsenal...I did check out power bleeders on the internet just for s's & g's, and the ONE that keeps coming up has mixed reviews at best. I despise having to machine up parts to "repair" someone elses lack of quality. Thanx for the link! The saga continues....
 
  #11  
Old 11-21-10, 02:52 PM
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(Quote) I despise having to machine up parts to"repair"someone elses lack of quality.

Don’t blame
you buddy but
look at the
big picture you’re
still ahead of the
game by doing it
yourself imagine if
you were giving
out and had to
pay for labor!


First and second links are bleeders I use. Third link is just to help you out further.

Bottom-line pricing on KD Tools 2901 at ToolTopia.com

Phoenix Systems 2002 - Phoenix Systems MAXPRO Professional Brake Bleeders - Overview - SummitRacing.com

power brake bleeder

Good luck buddy
post back anytime
you need more help


Sam
 
  #12  
Old 11-21-10, 05:20 PM
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You're absolutely right..Kinda sad though, the reason I went into machining was so I could do this for myself, and now I find myself doing it so often that it's sucked the fun out of it..Again, many thanks for your help and the especially the links. I've actually been sitting around contemplating making my own power bleeder
I'll probably keep a post going till I get this resolved, so should you want to chime in I'll be listening.

Wayne
 
  #13  
Old 11-23-10, 07:32 AM
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I had a bad experience with Cardone brake caliper rebuilds. I had two of their rebuilds fail in about six months on my Porsche track car. What they did wrong was not replacing scored pistons. After the second failure in 1.5 years, I decided to rebuild the caliper myself. One of the 4 pistons was scored. The effect is that it quickly ruins the seals. I ordered new seals from Brembo and one new piston. That was over 6 years ago with no problem since and lots of track events.
 
  #14  
Old 11-23-10, 12:55 PM
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any chance of having the calipers on the wrong side?
that puts the bleeder on the bottom.
 
  #15  
Old 11-25-10, 07:19 AM
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Nope, cant be done on this application..
 
  #16  
Old 11-25-10, 07:23 AM
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To say I am done with Cardone is probably an understatement.!!!
 
  #17  
Old 11-25-10, 07:45 AM
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Progress buddy
bring us up to
speed what's
goin on?
 
  #18  
Old 11-26-10, 06:13 AM
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brakes

Having sold most of my equipment when I retired, I decided I neede a brake bleeder. I made one out of a small garden sprayer. The only hurdle to over come is the adapter to the M Cyl. I made one out of a peice of plate for an older GM but you can buy them seperately for others. Just keep a watch on the fluid level in your bleeder.
 
  #19  
Old 11-26-10, 08:01 AM
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Thanksgiving duties...Shuffling of food and parents. I plan on getting out there today.
And ya know, I'd actually thought about that garden sprayer thing, but then I may get more elaborate. Or just buy the real deal and be done with it...I'll keep ya posted.
 
  #20  
Old 11-26-10, 01:30 PM
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Believe it or not...I am right back where I started from. Bled the master out, I could still see a little fluid on the back side bore..Let all four corners gravity drip .(Not all at the same time) Each corner about 25 minutes. Pedal feels good till I start the engine. Took it out for a drive and brakes are marginal. UGH!
 
  #21  
Old 11-28-10, 07:07 PM
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It'll be fixed tomorrow...Buddy of mine gave me a GM manual, so I looked up bleeding the system and apparently I'm doin it all wrong..Absolutely A$$ backwards from the "good old way"..Will post tommorrow...
 
  #22  
Old 12-11-10, 08:24 AM
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For anybody still following this...This is my final post (YEA!) Replaced the power brake booster and fixed the problem. Stick me with a fork....I'm Done!!
 
  #23  
Old 12-11-10, 08:40 AM
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Isn't that something..
I was going to post "check out the vacuum booster", using the vacuum pump with a gage.
Rebuilding cylinders is fine and dandy, some the only option, but one must examine all the parts nearly under a microscope and use a micrometer..
A rebuilt should have stamped on it, R and the date.
I did not do these things, but this was during the previous century...
 
  #24  
Old 12-12-10, 05:23 PM
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With-ya! When everything else was squared away, booster was my last resort...Hind sight being 20/20, should have done this sooner. Oh well......
 
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