2000 Prism: brake failure>accident>brakes fine.

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  #1  
Old 08-08-16, 11:20 PM
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2000 Prism: brake failure>accident>brakes fine.

GF's daughter has 2000 Prizm non ABS. Says pedal to floor, stepped on it twice, hit car in front at light at low speed. Had her friend drive it around corner..had to creep it super slow and had same no brake.

I got there..cop gone. Master full, no leaks, brakes fine. Drove it home right behind my truck .. no issues.

Master cylinder is full, zero leaks anywhere. Pedal is fine no matter how you try to test it. Zero sponge. Only has booster, master, proportioning valve then lines to calipers and drums.

Only thing I can think of doing is replacing master and fluid..bleed all. Just doesn't make me feel good though.

Have done some searching and cant find much else to help. She just turned 20 it was on her bday.. went through the it didn't happen stuff. She was so shook the cop had the friend take it around the corner. That part bothers me.. why would cop have the car moved. But have to work with what I have. Thanks for any help. Super tired hope this reads right.
 
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  #2  
Old 08-08-16, 11:26 PM
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If the pedal goes to the floor, and there are no leaks, and the reservoir is full only leaves a defective master cylinder. Although on a dual reservoir master cylinder that rarely happens.

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If the car had a suspected brake failure.... no one should have moved or driven it.
 
  #3  
Old 08-09-16, 09:44 AM
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Well, why am I leaning towards it was operator, not equipment, fault?
For reason VERY obvious, brakes are rather made reliable and solid. A failure that suddenly appeared and suddenly disappeared like this would rather make me think that accident was at driver fault and now equipment is being blamed. "a friend" is as much reliable source as the driver itself.
I know it may come across as disrespectful, but this simply does not happen this way.
 
  #4  
Old 08-09-16, 10:26 AM
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I have to agree with ukrbyk. As Judge Judy says, "You know when teenagers are lying? When their mouths are moving.".
 
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Old 08-09-16, 12:25 PM
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See if the time of impact coincides with incoming/outgoing text messages on her phone.
 
  #6  
Old 08-09-16, 08:35 PM
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only one real way for this to truly have happened. i have seen it where the friction material has fallen out of the pad/shoe. making you have space to make up for giving you no brakes until they are pumped back up. i would inspect for this. with out looking you should hear a grinding while stopping.
 
  #7  
Old 08-10-16, 12:32 AM
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Just a quick thanks to all. IF time works out will inspect all brakes today. GF wants her mechanic to take a peek at it. Peeks cost more than she thinks. Will get back with new info later on. Thanks again
 
  #8  
Old 08-10-16, 12:02 PM
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Please do. I have a little betting set up here. I just don't believe into "occasional" brake failure. It's too simple of the system. It either works or not. And signs of failure usually are heard, pun intended, way ahead before it happens.
 
  #9  
Old 08-17-16, 12:44 AM
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Running late on this. Rear drums off zero fluid problems, shoes thin. Front calipers off an zero fluid problems, pad info below. Hoses look ok. No new news yet on the "other" possible problem "her daughter".

Did run across something that I don't think I have seen before. My problem is that I am disabled so I tend to forget this type of thing unless its something I am doing all the time. So any help is sure appreciated. Not sure if I needed to start a new thread with this, but since its the same car and its the brakes I didn't.

Going to split info on the pads from normal left an right sides to inner and outer.

The inner pad on both sides (driver & pass) has a groove cut at the Top and Bottom of each. In-between the grooves the pads are fine. The outer pad on both sides have no grooves and are fine. The thickness on the outer pads is about 50% of new and the thickness is about the same on the inner pads.... THAT inner pad thickness is in-between the groves. I don't think I have ever seen wear only on the insides like this before.


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Size:  28.6 KB Pic of the bad inner pads with the groves

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Size:  44.2 KB Pic of good side of rotor..has some surface rust from the last week. This side is in good shape.

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Size:  36.7 KB Bad side of rotor (both rotors are the same)

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Size:  38.5 KB Close up of bad side of rotor.

The pics are not that great. You can see how much smaller the shiny surface area is on the bad side of the rotor.

One thing to add about this car that I forgot. She has owned it for 5 (?) years and even though it is not listed anywhere it has been in an accident. I found out later on when looking at how the headlights are set up and other.

Just while doing this I remembered way back in the 80's I owned a Honda that was a previous salvage. I took it to a very top shop to look it over then to a top shop for an alignment check before I bought it. That car always wore out the inner pad on one side before the other three front pads wore out. The ex took that car

Side note.. is there a purpose for the vertical cut in the middle of the pad surface? Usually this is on two of the four and one is missing here.

Extremely Tired..keep getting timed out.
Any help much appreciated.
 
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Old 08-17-16, 03:41 AM
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Can't tell from picture but those grooves are not raised but dug into the pads? From the rust on inner rotor that is why they are grooved. Rotors need to be turned or replaced. Inner pad wear is usually caused by a sticking caliper piston or bad flex hose. I think the vertical groove is for cooling , but is part of how they are made.
 
  #11  
Old 08-17-16, 05:48 AM
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This is not a DIY project. Because there is no clear cause for brake failure and because of the type of ware shown in the pics, run, don't walk to a dealer to have the system properly repaired. I would not drive it to a dealer, have it towed.

Expensive? Yes. More expensive than an injury? You be the judge.
 
  #12  
Old 08-17-16, 10:49 PM
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Yes the groves are dug into the pads. Thanks for the info. I just have never seen any groves that are almost the same on only the insides.. was just wondering if that wear pattern would mean anything special.

Cooling is what I thought of also on the vertical groove.

Looks like replacing everything cept the boost and the proport. Will come back to finish off.

Thanks again.
 
  #13  
Old 08-18-16, 06:02 AM
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Be sure to flush all old brake fluid. Old brake fluid absorbs moisture and can boil in extreme conditions.
 
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Old 08-18-16, 01:19 PM
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So you have 2 rotors that somehow have two concentric VERY HARD rings in them that carved two identical groves into the brake pads on both sides. Correct?
Oh wow. Seen groves in brake pads before, never that symmetrical on BOTH sides.
Now, me being the one who pitched "it's operator fault" theory - thank you for not being offended - seeing those groves, here's wild idea: maybe for a moment brake pads groves and rotors ridges didn't align "as usual" causing momentary laps of brakes, then re-aligned themselves and brakes went back to normal?
With such an unusual wear pattern, anything is possible. Pads "hung" on the rotors ridges, main braking surfaces them being those between the groves, didn't mate with rotors, and there was not enough surface contact to stop the car? I guess it's plausible?
 
  #15  
Old 08-18-16, 03:58 PM
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And another good reason to bring it in to the trained mechanics who know how to fix them and have the proper equipment. This kind of unknown repair should not be done by your backyard mechanic regardless of how good he might be. There may be technical bulletins that only authorized dealers have privy to.

And I don't think we should be giving advice on how or what is wrong. This is a life dependent item that must work flawlessly. The first time it was just a minor rear end bump. Next time?
 
  #16  
Old 08-18-16, 08:24 PM
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I agree. Technically, anything in car repairs is potentially life threatening.
I'd say, let's agree and stop.
 
  #17  
Old 08-19-16, 04:02 AM
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I understand that this is a 16 year old car. But that is all the more reason not to touch it by unqualified people. At that age it can have many problems that may not be apparent. Corroded brake lines. Hair line cracks. Worn master cylinder. Sticking slave cylinders. These types of problems sometimes only show intermittently.

I'm not against auto repair or brake repair. Done many brake rebuilds and repairs over the years. And even done a few the wrong way and had to redo them. But I've always known the problem and was sure of the problem and what must be done.

Reminds me of a "bad" brake job I did on my then future daughter-in-law. Replaced both front rotors and somehow put one of the new pads in backwards(brain freeze?). The resulting grinding and scoring of the disc was unbelievable. Best part was that I told the parts store what I did and they took back the rotor and replaced at no charge.
 
  #18  
Old 08-20-16, 11:58 AM
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suppose its different for everyone but there is plenty of people that are capable of working on there own brakes, would probably change the master cylinder, rotors and pads at the least, being 16 years old you may opt to replace the calipers and brake hoses also or at least inspect the hoses and lube the caliper slides.
no abs so relatively simple system to work on and you may choose to replace almost everything on the brake system except the steel lines if not rusted out and proportioning valve probably a few hundred dollars in parts.
 
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