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antifreeze?


bryan77's Avatar
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04-05-02, 03:09 PM   #1  
bryan77
antifreeze?

I was reading here maybe a couple weeks ago, and read a post from a guy who back in the days was told by an old wise man to not mix 50/50, just put antifreeze in, well since then I had to replace my radiator and was pondering doing the same, any thoughts on this or was that guy just pulling our leg?

 
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04-05-02, 03:58 PM   #2  
Billdo49er
It is best to mix at 50/50 unless you live in an area with extreme weather conditions.You can read the antifreeze bottle to tell you what mix is good to a certain temperature.

 
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04-05-02, 08:01 PM   #3  
Joe_F
Marturo wasn't pulling your leg, it is how he does his antifreeze services.

I recommend going with the 50/50 mix, maximum 70 percent coolant, 30 % water.

 
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04-05-02, 11:47 PM   #4  
One more try. well maybe ?

Just as you have the right to believe, that just a few short years ago the Parts sellers/ old wives tale tellers. were saying Hey, you can't use Dot 5 Silicone brake fluid in the family car, because it will boil sooner than Dot 4 . Hey as a Mechanic for 3 decades, I was tought ways to help shorten, the life of your automobiles. I just did not help, the status Quo. I rebelled and said people first!

Call me a sucker, but I have walked out on jobs, when asked to do things to customers cars, that was down right immoral & illegal.

I have used Antifreze right from the jug since 1969. I was born in 51, you do the math. I have lived in Fla. Hot, Ohio very cold. My raidiators are clean, my hoses last for 10 years or more. My water pump seals stay soft and supple, as do all rubber parts. I say this again. When you add water to the different metals involved in the cooling system, you get the white build up inside of your block and raidiator.

It is called electrolisis. Ok I told you about the parts guys who told me back in 1969, that if I did not add water to antifreze it would freeze. The last time I told you to use uncut antifreze, I was told that without water, Antifreze would boil over prematurely. I can't win for losing

You sound like a smart person, read the back of the Antifreze container. Does it say anywhere not to use undiluted? Does H2O boil at 212 degrees F ? Does a 70/30 mix take that up to 276 degrees F? and less antifreze lower the temp that the mix will boil at?

I have noticed a strange thing in my short life. People will allways tend to take wives tales and unproven stories over the simple truth. I guess I was just born lucky, because I tend to try and look for a reason, why someone would want me to put H2O into a very costly substance, ethelene Glycol to protect my engine from the bad things, water can do to it if not treated.

I gave a lady a tip just a short time ago, here at DIY. Use 4 ozs. of denatured alcohol in at least 10 galions of gasoline, every other month. The gas line antifreze, they sell in the Parts stores is a mix of denatured alcohol, cut with water, and costs more by volume, than pure 200 Proof or 100% alcohol.

When I first decided to become a Mechanic, I decided to put people first. That meant to do the best job I could, So they would not get hurt or killed, because of something I did or did not do. And to expose the lies, and wives tales, so they could keep their cars running safer, and longer.

If you believe that manufactures, have built in time limits on the products they sell you. Why is it so hard to believe that maybe only a few, but people who have worked on those products, and found tricks to beat the system would not tell you?

I could keep to myself, all the tricks I have learned. How do you think it makes me feel, to offer you free information that will save you money, eg: Denatured alcohol, instead of a cut trick, and Dot 5 silicone brake fluid, instead of Dot4 that eats your rubber parts up, and pure Antifreze, instead of adding H2O that corodes your cooling system. Only to have people think I am trying to pull one over on them???

Well I have rarely had anyone, work on my cars, trucks & Motorcycles. However, I know how you all, have been screwed, by Mechanics & Shops. What I don't understand is, all of you can reason. Silicone is good for rubber, and repels water, pure alcohol mixes with water in your gas, and why would you want to put watered down alcohol, in your fuel tank, antifreze keeps water from frezing, rusting, and raises the boiling point of water. So why would you want to put water into your cooling system?????? These are the things, about people, I will never understand.

Tha't all folks, take it or leave it. I have nothing to gain, or lose. I just thought, you would like a little information to help you keep your cars running longer, and save some money to boot.
Marturo

 
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04-06-02, 07:12 AM   #5  
Joe_F
While I may not agree with Marturo, it's important to note that this an angle that has worked for him.

Take all advice here for what it is worth. People speak from personal experience

Mine says, follow the book and take you maintenance in the severe service category as noted in your owner's manual and maintenance schedule. You can't go wrong

 
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04-06-02, 08:43 AM   #6  
Eye to Eye

Joe and I agree on quite a few things. This is one of them, you must make your own mind up, as this machienery is very costly.

You could be given advice on this or let's take my forum Rifles/Pistols/Shotguns/ & Archery. Not to different, when you think about it. Someone gives you a load, you try it without looking it up & boom your blind for life.

I like, many of you was lured by PTFE ( Teflon) until, I did some study on why, DuPont did not want to allow this product for use in autos. Do a little study on the development of PTFE & I'll bet you will quit using products containing PTFE in your engines ect.

Now if you buy a new car & the maker tells you to change your oil at 5,000 miles, and leave your dirty filter on until the next change. But you say, I have been changing my oil for 20 years at 2.500 miles, with a new filter. You have decided to take matters into your own hands.

DIY folks are different, from Sheepeople, we like to think for ourselves. On that note. Let's look it up, let's ask why.
Marturo

 
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04-06-02, 03:30 PM   #7  
Joe_F
I learned many years ago that a little attention goes a long way in avoiding repairs!

I leave all those additives on the shelf. They do nothing and will not supplement nor replace regular maintenance.

 
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04-06-02, 04:38 PM   #8  
Rabbit doo doo

Joe I would say you have seen your share of radiators and heater cores, pluged up with those magic rabbit doo doos, to fix those leaks.

How about RESTORE? Wow the first time I read the label, I passed it over to my son, and at 19 he says. Are they kidding?

The micronized metal particles in the can, were the same metals, I had been teaching him, to rid his engines of, for long life.

Yet here was Snake oil, of the worst kind. Who would deliberately, put metal particles into there own engine? What? Someone told you that this would rebuild your engine. Research cost you, some of your time. In the long run, you will be the winner, because it will be harder for the swindlers to fool you.

The shelves are full of magic potions, that promise you the fix of a lifetime. Buyer Beware. Put your extra money into high quality Oils & filters. Buy better than OEM parts, and maintain them.

There that's not anything, but old fashoned common sense.
Marturo

 
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04-06-02, 08:03 PM   #9  
Joe_F
I agree. There is no fix in a can

Wear is not caused overnight. It is caused by years of bad maintenance and/or lack of it.

Do your maintenance regularly and use quality parts. Any machine requires it and will reward you with good service and many years of longevity if you do

 
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04-07-02, 11:08 AM   #10  
Dan Meyer
anti-freeze

I'm a Petroleum Engineer with a major oil company. Anti-freeze is Ethylene Glycol with a little rust inhibitor in it. Without going into long chemical talk, pure ethylene glycol WILL freeze and expand. Only the addition of water will change the molecular structure to prevent expansion and freezing. Always add water!

 
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04-07-02, 12:09 PM   #11  
Please do, let us talk.

I am not an Engineer. I am the guy who fixes, and maintaines the products you, and other Engineers design. However I do have a rather good mind, I chose to work my whole life in the dirty part of the business. For the simple reason, that I have the ability to excell & enjoy the chalange in the field.

Do you mind if I ask some Questions of you? I will be respectful & open minded. As I am sure you will afford me, the same courtsey.

I have a need to know why, I was told that the Antifreze we buy for our automobiles was not pure 100% Ethylene Glycol. Instead it was cut with H2O distilled of course, because the viscosty of pure Ethylene Glycol was like 90# gear lube.

This information come's to me from a client Of mine, for over 20 years. He is still employed as a Chemical Scientist, who has allowed me to use, uncut Antifreze in his Antique Truck.

Marturo

 
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04-07-02, 12:37 PM   #12  
Joe_F
I too have read that adding a % of water raises the boiling point of antifreeze.

I have always gone 50/50 or 70/30, but never more. It saves coolant and I dump my fluid every year. Additionally, the additive package in the freeze wears out, not the ethylene glycol.

That's why you change it .

 
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04-07-02, 12:54 PM   #13  
Dan Meyer
Your anti-freeze questions

First, SAE 90 gear oil has the same viscosity of between a SAE 40 and 50 engine oil. Now to anti-freeze:
The viscosity of anti-freeze is 20.9 cp @ 20C. Around a SAE 40 engine oil.
The water content is 0.30 % maximum - hardly measurable.
The boiling point is 197.2 C.
Flash point is 240 F.
I hope this helps to answer your questions- I'm glad to offer help.

 
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04-07-02, 02:25 PM   #14  
Dan Meyer
Just a further note:adding water to neat (undiluted) anti-freeze will actually lower the boiling point. Neat Anti-freeze boils at about 388 F (197C) . Water boils at 212 F (both at sea level). So adding water will lower the boiling point. However, what offsets this is that the cooling system is under pressure. If you remember your high school physics "A liquid will always boil when its saturated vapor pressure exceeds the atmospheric pressure upon the liquid". That's why water will boil sooner in the mountains (lower atmospheric pressure) than at sea level. So it's the pressure in the cooling system raises the boiling point.

 
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04-07-02, 03:29 PM   #15  
OK...
You guys got me all curious so I did the research.
According to Dow Chemical Co., their antifreeze grade ethylene glycol is 95% ethylene glycol and 5% diethylene glycol. The boiling point for ethylene glycol is 387F. The freeze point is 7.9F. Ethylene glycol is completely soluble in water. (Like Dan says, changes the molecular structure) When you mix with 30% water you get your best combination of freeze and overheating protection. By not mixing, you lose some freeze protection, and the overheat protection you gain is really not within operating limits of your engine. According to my sources, you really haven't lost anything but freeze protection below 8F if you use straight antifreeze.

 
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04-07-02, 03:43 PM   #16  
Need more help please.

Thanks, Dan

One small correction. Source: Ball Food Canning Book. Water boils sooner, at sea level that at higher elevations.


However there are more important questions first. We can get into the fact that neat antifreeze, leaves no corosion build up in the cooling system. And that I have conducted real life trials, using neat (I like that term) Antifreeze in internal combustion engines, for 3 decades, in extreme -60 F to 111 F W/AC on, outside temps.
Freeze Boil
Neat ? 388 F
30% H2O -84 F 276 F
60% " -62 270 F
50% " -34 265 F

Now this comes from the Zerex Co. A note from Marturo: Zerex must assume, I have something in my cooling system, besides air. I have water in there now, let's assume for this test.

Now this is what they claim, that their product will do for me, if I add it to my water.
1. Prevents cold weather freeze ups.
2. Prevents hot weather boil- overs.
3. Prevents Corrosion & rust damage.
4. Protects all cooling system metals including Aluminum.

Now Dan please correct me if I am wrong. Is this not just, what I said, neat Antifreeze would do? Prevent Corrosion & rust.

Only Zerex, did not say. Warning: do not use neat Antifreeze due to a posibility of engine damage. You know, if there were a possibility, that a law suit could ensue, there would be a warning.

So there seems to be, only one more question left to ask.
What is the Tempature in F that Zerex Anti freeze, freezes at?

If the answer is below 32 F.
How did I ever make it thourgh the blizzard years, in the middle 1970s in Ohio, with temps at, - 60 F without a single freeze plug popping? How could a mechanic/Driver, not know his coolant had frozen?

Of course this all hinges on how, a 30% addition of water, to antifreeze, protected me to -84 F, & the neat Antifreeze I used, froze in my cooling system at ?? F
Marturo

 
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04-07-02, 03:54 PM   #17  
Billdo49er
I never thought a question on anti-freeze/coolant could get this heated.As I always say though to each is own.
In my experiences whatever works stick with it.Everyone has their own opinions may they be right or wrong ,But if it works for you then stick with it.It may be different than someone else but what works for them they should stick with that.
Not every answer is right or wrong.
Going back to --If it works for you then so be it.

 
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04-07-02, 04:06 PM   #18  
One who is not to be forgotton.

Let's not forget that one of our members, asked if he could put neat Antifreeze in his cooling system. Dan & I surely want the same thing. To answer Bryan 77s question.

It is only fair to Bryan. Is it not?

 
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04-07-02, 05:01 PM   #19  
Actually Marturo, here in south Louisiana, I've always done like you do. Straight antifreeze (Still hooked on Prestone) and I've never had any problems. My old '87 MR2 has 168,000 and the cooling system is clean as a whistle. I've never flushed it out.
One interesting thing from Dow source and maybe Dan Meyer can explain it...Dow says that the Ethylene Glycol will freeze at 8F, but further they state that it remains "pourable" to < -75F. In my mind that says it will still flow. I wonder if it loses it's heat transfer properties?

 
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04-07-02, 05:10 PM   #20  
Joe_F
You also have to remember that coolant looses the additive package kicking around in the engine over time. That being said, it IS wise to flush it

My uncle didn't flush his 1979 Nova for 13 years and when everything went, it was a lot of greenbacks in repairs!

 
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04-07-02, 05:30 PM   #21  
That's an excellent question.

I just want the truth. dirty dan I have met many people like yourself, who have been using pure antifreze, all with the same story. Clean long lasting cooling systems. Keep up the good work, I was born in Alexandria La

I really hope Dan, will take all this in the spirit it was meant. We are all here to learn, from each other. I doubt that after 30 years, of using pure antifreze, that anyone could get me to add water to my cooling system.

However Dan has a lot he can teach us, being in his profession. I hope you feel this way also Dan, you are welcome here. Were not perfect, but we keep trying to learn and get better.

Let's not forget there are people, who come here because they want to try, and be more self sufficent, and in my book that is very good thing.
Marturo

 
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04-09-02, 12:16 PM   #22  
sciguyjim
You are all missing the point

I hope I don't make things more complicated, but IMHO, as a chemist, the most important component in the cooling system is the water. This is because of water's great capacity for absorbing and carrying away heat. It is a much better heat transfer fluid than ethylene glycol. The glycol is present to extend the useable temp range of the water. Water is also thinner than glycol so it mixes better and this too helps it carry away the excess heat more easily than syrupy glycol.

Also, keeping water out of the system is not going to corrosion-proof the engine. There is nothing special about water that makes corrosion happen faster. Actually, neither water nor glycol will conduct electricity when pure and that is what is needed for the corrosion to occure. It is the salty, ionized additives in the glycol that increase the conductivity of the solution (unless there is something which can passivate the metal surfaces.)

BTW, the freezing point of pure ethylene glycol is -11.5 C according to my chemistry reference book.

I'm not saying what is right or not and I don't want to be in the middle of an argument. This is just my 2 cents.

 
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04-09-02, 12:28 PM   #23  
Joe_F
I think you are 100% right. The mix of the two takes the best of both...the benefits of the water and the coolant.

I think you want both because both together provide for better protection year round than either could by themselves.

That's my take based on what I read here .

 
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04-09-02, 01:40 PM   #24  
Dan Meyer
In order for rusting and corrosion to occur there needs to be oxygen. Water has oxygen in it and will cause rusting unless there is an anti-rust additive in it.

-11C is +14F. I sure wouldn't trust neat anti-freeze at +14F. As neat anti-freeze gets colder it gets thicker. It can get so thick that you can't start your car and the water pump won't be able to circulate it. Big trouble then.

As siguyjim states, thinner liquids remove heat better.

 
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04-10-02, 06:13 AM   #25  
sciguyjim
Actually, it's the oxygen in the air that dissolves in the water that causes the rust. Not the oxygen in the water itself. Rust can form without water. Liquid water, especially with salt, acts as a conductor of electrons, like a copper wire, and allows the corrosion to form anywhere on a damp surface.

This website shows the chemical reactions and how the water carries the electrons:

http://naio.kcc.hawaii.edu/chemistry...corrosion.html

 
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