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Cost Estimate


jun54e's Avatar
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06-09-02, 10:56 PM   #1  
Cost Estimate

Since my car has 63K miles, it"s due for a 60K maintenance. I would like to have an estimate on my Honda 98 Civic LX for the following repair/replace:
- remove and replace drive belts and the timing belt
- remove and replace the rotor, and front disc pads
any info will be appreciated.

 
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06-10-02, 04:43 AM   #2  
Congratulations on staying on top of the preventive maintenance!

Drive belts should be cost of parts only, which you can get by calling a parts store (the belts have to be taken off to get to the timing belt, so there should be no labor charge).

Timing belts are normally 2-3 hour jobs @ $50-60/hr depending on your area and the shop. You can also find the parts cost on this item by calling a parts store; belts run anywhere from $30-100, so you're looking probably worst-case cost of $275-300 but likely somehere around $200-250.

There is no need to "replace" front rotors unless you have run the pads down to the nubs and done damage to them. Otherwise they are simply turned on a brake lathe to resurface them. My wife's '95 Camry has 135,000 miiles on it and I've never turned or replaced the rotors so even turning them is not a 100% necessity (there will be arguments on that). Front brake pad sets can normally be had for less than $50 (depending on the quality of the pad you get) and a front brake job (I'm guessing here) is about a 1 hour job, so even with a charge for turning rotors you should be in under $100.

Some of the pro's should be along with better figures, but these should be close.

Good luck.

 
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06-10-02, 04:45 AM   #3  
Oops, just noticed your location. Labor rates could be higher, say maybe $75/hr.

 
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06-10-02, 05:30 AM   #4  
Joe_F
Probably about 600 bucks for everything, again depending on your labor rates in the area like Tow Guy said.

Call the dealer and some good independent shops to get an idea.

 
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06-11-02, 09:53 PM   #5  
Cost Estimate

Like what you good guys suggested, I called several local dealers and it averaged to between 600 - 700. I was surprised they have different labor charges. I'll still be checking around - thanks you all!

 
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06-11-02, 10:20 PM   #6  
knuckles
Check your owner's manual! Your car should be equipped with a nitrile timing belt. Under normal conditions (that is, the car is NOT used as a taxi or a police vehicle, or in severe climates) the belt should not require replacement until 105K miles.

Here's what my service info says about timing belt replacement for your car:

Timing Belt
Replace timing belt, balancer belt where applicable, and inspect water pump. If the vehicle is regularly driven in very hot or cold weather, over 110 degrees F (43 degrees C) or under -20 degrees F (-29 degrees C), replace these belts every 60,000 miles; if not replace them at 105,000 miles.

Copyright 2002 ALLDATA LLC. Used with permission.

 
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06-12-02, 05:02 AM   #7  
Check around or ask friends who they use for an independent
(non-franchise) garage, too. Timing belt and water pump are pretty easy stuff and the difference in cost could be over $100.

If you need a reference, call a few of your local independent towing companies and see who they recommend. Most independents tow for, depending on the area, a couple of dozen shops and trust me, they know who the good shops are. The better shops, unfortunately, may not get you in for a day or two because their popularity keeps them booked up a day or two in advance.

 
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06-12-02, 05:48 AM   #8  
Joe_F
I agree with Knuckles...but I would take the severe route.....

If that belt snaps on that Honda, it could mean curtains for the valves. If the water pump is leaking, it could mean curtains for things as well.

I would do as he says with the owner's manual and also see what the dealer's service department recommends.

Hondas and snapped timing belts are no joy...thank goodness for old American iron with timing chains for me .

 
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06-12-02, 11:20 AM   #9  
knuckles
Good old american iron w/ timing chains..LOL

Like my '86 Olds 98 w/ the 3.8L? You know, the one that tossed the timing chain, bent 8 of the 12 pushrods & 6 of 12 valves? Yeah, that was a cheap repair!

Or perhaps the 1970 Olds Delta 88 w/ Police package (high compression) 455? Same deal there...tossed the chain, bent many valves & pushrods. Not cheap to repair.

Cars w/ timing belts are not alone when it comes to being valve benders. At least Honda & most other mfrs. recommend a service interval for their cam drives & warn of catastrophic failure if the service is not performed. GM never bothered to list their crappy nylon coated timing gear as a service item.

 
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06-12-02, 05:13 PM   #10  
Joe_F
Those are anomolies . The 3.8 s American, but it's surely not good iron . In fact a lot of it is aluminum.

The average GM V8 blowing a chain will just stop running. A new chain and gear set and you're good for 100k or more .

The average Honda leaves you with a 1000 dollar repair bill AND you have the chance the water pump will ruin the belt at any time due to the design. Not so on a GM .

My grandfather's 305 simply stopped running. For 100 bucks I changed EVERYTHING around the chain and pump and it ran flawlessly for another 5+ years.

 
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06-12-02, 10:44 PM   #11  
knuckles
Actually the '86 3.8L was all iron with the exception of the timing chain cover and intake manifold. GM redesigned the 3.8 in 1988 & made it a freewheeling design, along w/ many other much needed improvements. The '88-up 3.8s are pretty good engines.


The average GM V8 blowing a chain will just stop running. A new chain and gear set and you're good for 100k or more .

That's true as far as it goes, but what defines "average"?

The "average" mid-'70s to mid '80s small block Chevy V-8 and 90 V-6 would eat a camshaft & maybe an exhaust valve or 2 before 70K miles. GM was paying for the cam repairs well into the late 1980s, possibly the early 1990s. The "average" Olds 260 & 307 V-8 would rot out the intake manifold around the coolant passages in as little as 36K miles. Then they would toss the timing chain at 80K! Even the 1990s era GM V-8s eat valve stem seals & wear valve guides before 100K miles. This was a crappy design in 1955 & it still is.

The average Honda leaves you with a 1000 dollar repair bill AND you have the chance the water pump will ruin the belt at any time due to the design.

Yes, there's a CHANCE the water pump will seize & ruin the belt. But it doesn't happen very often, especially if the belt was properly tensioned & the water pump is OEM.

Not so on a GM .

I can think of 2 GM engines that can suffer serious damage from a seized water pump. The LT1 V-8 water pump is gear driven from the cam gear. Big mess if that pump seizes. The Quad 4 is another. Pump is driven by the timing chain. Even bigger mess when that thing lets go.

My grandfather's 305 simply stopped running. For 100 bucks I changed EVERYTHING around the chain and pump and it ran flawlessly for another 5+ years.


You could've rebuilt the whole for engine for less than $250!

 
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06-13-02, 03:53 AM   #12  
Joe_F
I disagree with ya Knuckles A small block Chevy is overall an excellent design. If not for this, other car companies wouldn't have used it, nor would it be as popular as it is. Does it have shortcomings? Sure. But there are fixes for them that have been incorporated into even aftermarket replacements.

Again the 3.8 Buick engine is lackluster garbage. Not a viable candidate in my book. Family members have had them, I wouldn't own them for free. Lol. No thanks. I'll skip the oil pump that grinds into the timing cover, ruining it, in turn lowering the oil pressure and causing it to fail. A problem on the 3.8's of old and the same thing today . The oil pump belongs in the pan, period.

As for your statement about the other V8's, ya true on the ORIGINAL timing set from GM as they are Nylon. Put a Sealed Power or Cloyes steel set in there, and there's no problems. I just bought a set for my friend to ship him in MA. 31.75 for a three piece set !

Take a Pontiac, Chevy or Olds V8 as "average". If the chain falls off, it's not likely you're going to ruin the engine. You service the chain and gears and you go. As for the intake trouble, yes that's a common Olds pitfall, but I can cite at least 10 examples of Olds V8's with well over 200k on them with no problems you describe.

My coworker's 1988 Caprice that we commute in every day has 180K on a USED engine that he paid 50 bucks for (rumored to actually be from Elizabeth Montgomery's own 1987 Caprice...sold through her estate). My own 307 has 143k on it with the original valve train. The timing chain was done before I got it. An Olds V8 is SUPER reliable and one of the better GM V8s out there.

I have good thing to say about the Pontiac V8. They run and run with no troubles. Marturo's own 265 is well over 200k. On the whole, a GM V8 will outlast any foreign car out there and cost you less to run in the long term. I pass more small foreign cars stuck on the Brooklyn Queens Expressway going to work than you can shake a stick at. The key is maintenance and upkeep. Then you'll be rewarded.

Funny thing: The TLC here in NYC used the Isuzu Oasis and Honda variant (the name escapes me at the moment) as a "replacement" for the RWD cars they had been using. Within a year the vehicle was removed from the approved list as it was falling apart causing a lot of expense for cabbies. They would overheat, quit, seize, drop ball joints and fall apart in no time. The solution? Back to rear drive US made cars. Ok, Canada if you count that the Ford is made in Canada. Lol.

So much for foreign reliability I say. If it can't take it as a cab, it can't take it.


You might ask a few of my neighbor's customers about their Honda and import timing chain woes . Those are the same people that think those cars are the best things since sliced bread and then complain when they see the bill. Lol.

Considering that you have the POSSIBILITY of this problem on a Honda, along with highway robbery prices for parts, being a contorsionist to service it and paper thin sheet metal covering you in an accident, it's not worth a wooden nickel to me.

I'll carpool with a GM V8, save some resources and possibly my life in the process if there's a collision.

See the USA in your Chevrolet, or Very Rare, Very Well Done in your Pontiac Trans Am or Your Good Olds guys.

Long live the GM V8

My .02

 
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06-14-02, 01:18 AM   #13  
knuckles
Don't get me wrong, Joe. I like domestic V-8s. I've owned at least 20 domestic cars over the last 16 years, 9 of them V-8 powered.

My current daily driver is a '92 S-10 w/ the much maligned 2.8L V-6. I bought it 9 mos. ago from the original owner. So far the only thing I've had to do to it (other than oil changes) is replace a leaky heater core ($27). Not bad for 10 years and 106K miles.

The small block Chevy is basically a good design, but it took MILLIONS of units and MILLIONS of dollars in warranty claims before GM bothered to address its shortcomings.

Its popularity w/ other carmakers was largely due to the fact that GM would sell them for next to nothing & parts availability was excellent due to the fact that so many (something like 60 million were produced over a 45+ year production run) were produced.

Again, the '88-up "3800" engines are very good from a durability standpoint. GM redesigned the oil pump when the redesigned the engine. I've yet to see a 3800 engine w/ a failed oil pump & I work on a LOT of 3800s. The earlier models, including the V-8s, had hideous oil pump & pickup problems.

As for your statement about the other V8's, ya true on the ORIGINAL timing set from GM as they are Nylon. Put a Sealed Power or Cloyes steel set in there, and there's no problems.

I'm pretty sure this discussion was in reference to OEM parts. The OEM belt is good for 105K on a late model Honda. The OEM chain on the older GMs was lucky to see 90K, far less if the engine was overheated. I agree completely about the Cloyes & Sealed Power timing sets. I've installed hundreds of them & I don't remember one coming back broken or jumped.


Take a Pontiac, Chevy or Olds V8 as "average". If the chain falls off, it's not likely you're going to ruin the engine. You service the chain and gears and you go. As for the intake trouble, yes that's a common Olds pitfall, but I can cite at least 10 examples of Olds V8's with well over 200k on them with no problems you describe.


Agreed on the first part, but the '80s era Olds V-8 (w/ aluminum intake, steel or tin intake gasket & iron heads) is a real turd. The 10 examples you can cite are NOT the norm. Talk about your anomalies!

An Olds V8 is SUPER reliable and one of the better GM V8s out there.


I've owned 2 cars w/ Olds V-8s. 1 was a 1970 Delta 88 w/ a 2bbl. 350. The other was a 1981 Cutlass w/ a 260. The Delta engine was awesome, nearly indestructible. I replaced the timing chain @ 100K & did NOTHING else to the engine. The 260 was a different story...The main bearings knocked from day 1 (very common on the 260 & 307...crappy lightweight blocks & loose production tolerances) & it tossed the timing chain @ 80K miles. I've also serviced countless cars w/ Olds power. In my experience, anything manufactured after the demise of the 403 (which was hated by most, but was actually a pretty decent engine) is garbage.

I have good thing to say about the Pontiac V8. They run and run with no troubles. Marturo's own 265 is well over 200k.

The Pontiac V-8 was a pretty good engine with the exception of the short lived 265 and 301. They were powerless boat anchors including, hell, ESPECIALLY the Turbo 301.

On the whole, a GM V8 will outlast any foreign car out there and cost you less to run in the long term. I pass more small foreign cars stuck on the Brooklyn Queens Expressway going to work than you can shake a stick at. The key is maintenance and upkeep. Then you'll be rewarded.

I disagree & many many many Volvo & MB owners w/ 500K+ miles can back me up on that.

I haven't been to NYC or driven the BQE since I was in high school, so I'll take your word for it. Having said that, do you honestly think that all those foreign cars you see on the side of the road were properly maintained? As you said, the key (with any car, regardless of the mfr.) is maintenance and upkeep. I'd be more than willing to bet that the broken down cars you see were not maintained very well. I drive a 20 mile stretch of I-95 each day & most of the cars I see on the side of the road are domestic. Again, they don't look like they've been maintained very well.


Funny thing: The TLC here in NYC used the Isuzu Oasis and Honda variant (the name escapes me at the moment) as a "replacement" for the RWD cars they had been using. Within a year the vehicle was removed from the approved list as it was falling apart causing a lot of expense for cabbies. They would overheat, quit, seize, drop ball joints and fall apart in no time. The solution? Back to rear drive US made cars. Ok, Canada if you count that the Ford is made in Canada. Lol.



Shame on the TLC. Isuzus are crap. They're the AMC of Japanese cars. Isuzu is owned in part by who? Oh...it's GM!

If it can't take it as a cab, it can't take it.

Guess you'll have to sell the TAs.


You might ask a few of my neighbor's customers about their Honda and import timing chain woes . Those are the same people that think those cars are the best things since sliced bread and then complain when they see the bill. Lol

I don't know about your neighbor's customers, but I do know about mine. Most of my Honda & Toyota customers are much more diligent about maint. than my GM (or any other domestic mfr.) customers. I've seen exactly ONE snapped T-belt on a Honda. It was an '88 Acura Integra w/ 128K on the original belt.

As for highway robbery, contortionism & crash safety...

OEM Honda parts are available at discount prices if you know where to look. No, they're not as cheap as your typical domestic V-8 parts, but they last twice as long.

I'm not a big guy (5' 10", 175lbs) but I'm not small either, & I have no problem servicing these cars.

Hondas, even the crappy little Civic, do an excellent job of protecting the driver & occupants. Sure the car is totalled, but who cares? You walk away & that's what matters most.

See the USA in your Chevrolet, or Very Rare, Very Well Done in your Pontiac Trans Am or Your Good Olds guys.

Long live the GM V8


Make mine a '70 SS 454 Chevelle, a '73 455 SD or a '69 HO H/O!

 
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06-14-02, 07:07 AM   #14  
Joe_F
Knuckles:

You make some valid points, however, I have to disagree on the Olds V8.

The 260 on up are all of the same "basic" design. I have owned a few 307's, all them were trouble free. My Olds pitched the crank in 1990 (and I think it was due to my uncle's neglect) and through his clout with GM at the time, they ate the repair. The car has not had trouble since. It has 143k on it. I do the basics to it, and keep the body cleaned and waxed as best as possible. The car has not failed me once in 6 years...and it was free.

My coworker is the Zone Director of the Olds club and he's got MANY examples of these trouble free Oldsmobiles. While that might seem like tainting them, just go look at the odometers/inspection stickers of many of the older cars in the yard...over 100k.

By the way, I frequent a couple of yards in PA and the quality of the parts on the cars is superb. My friend got a 4 bbl Buick V8 intake (off of a 1978 Bonnie with a Buick 350 vin X) for 10 bucks. His doubt about why we drove three hours to a junkyard quickly faded with that find!

That being said, those MB and Volvos WILL cost you more in the long run as the parts simply cost more...and they don't last any longer in my belief. That and waiting for parts is a chore. Even if it's overnight. When those cars get old, you get soaked.

It's funny on the strength of the T/A's. Actually, it has a beefy subframe and a large rear frame. Most sports cars are unibody. It's actually a heavy and strong vehicle...even the body man that does some paint work for me now and then says with his Italian accent...."Thisssa old Trannsssam, builta likea truck!"

My coworker and I were on the way to work one morning and had the pleasure of tangling the bumper of the 88 Chevy Caprice with a 1993 Subaru SVX. At the last minute as we were passing him, the kid pivoted enough for us to contact him.

Damage to the SVX? Over a grand. Damage to the Caprice? Not a scratch. Which would you rather be in?

The bumper was peeled like a banana, the fender was torn like a sardine can an a can opener and the headlamp blew into a million pieces.

I do not think most Japanese cars do a good job protecting the occupants. I have seen many of those things peeled in junkyards and the passenger compartment compromised. Look at any mid 90's Accord, they still rot around the dogleg area. Rust problems should have been licked in the 80's, but the Japanese cars are HORRIFIC for rust in these years. My neighbor's Corolla (1993) was actually totalled out by a ice slide swipe into a firehydrant last year. It bent both doors, wiped out the fender, ruined the spindle and bent the unibody. The car is totalled. Since he's a mechanic, he bought the car back as a second car.

By the way, the TLC used the Honda version here too. Another bomb. I believe Isuzu might make it and Honda rebadge it. Shame on Honda for rebadging a piece of crap .


As for the Turbo 301 and the 265, I've owned both. (As you know I have a 1980 Turbo Trans Am among other cars) The 265 is a gutless wonder, but will run forever with spit and glue. The Turbo 301 is vastly misunderstood. At the time in 1980, it was the best you could get in a sports car that was domestic. Ford had a paltry 255 in a Mustang which rivaled some lawn mowers for power. The Turbo 301 put out 210 HP, a respectable number at the time. My 79 400 puts out 220 horse, but of course is a lot more "moddable". I drive the 1980 Turbo for what it is. A clean, original, basically untouched vehicle.

You might ask yourself of this of Honda: Why for years they denied oil gallery leaks in many of their engines, even after Motor Magazine among others did features and fixes many times. The aftermarket companies had come out with fixes, but Honda denied it. Just recently they have admitted that they were indeed leakers. No telling what else they are hiding.

About the only GM V8's I don't really like are the Cadillac V8s and Buick V8's as they have the same integral drive oiling system like a Buick V6..and consequently have the same problems. However, my first car was almost a 1980 Fleetwood Brougham Coupe with a 368 (what a beautiful car), which I probably still would own had the sales manager not grabbed it before my dad did! Lol.

I said it once, say it again. The GM V8 is better, longer lasting, easier to fix and less daunting than anything out there. Ask any mechanic what a good reliable car is for under 1500, he/she will probably point you to old GM iron.

 
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