replacement of toilet bowl gasket
#1
09-15-00, 11:09 AM
I need to replace the gasket (& bolts, washers, etc) between the toilet tank and bowl. What should I due to ensure that I do not end up with leaks. The toilet is already dissembled, so I am not sure how to install gasket & re-assemble. I have never attempted this before so I could use detailed instructions. Many thanks.
#2
09-15-00, 11:55 AM
Take the tank back off, get and install a new tank to bowl kit.
The order I do this in is a for sure no leaker.
Bolt.... Rubber Washer..... Slip through tank.... Rubber washer.... Metal Washer.... Nut.... This will seal the bolt holes in the tank now install a good tank to bowl washer looks like this .... now on the bottom side for each bolt use a metal washer and the nuts.
Best Regards Plumber2000 www.atozplumbing.com
The order I do this in is a for sure no leaker.
Bolt.... Rubber Washer..... Slip through tank.... Rubber washer.... Metal Washer.... Nut.... This will seal the bolt holes in the tank now install a good tank to bowl washer looks like this .... now on the bottom side for each bolt use a metal washer and the nuts.
Best Regards Plumber2000 www.atozplumbing.com
#3
09-15-00, 08:31 PM
Perplexed:
I wrote up the following instructions for people on how to replace a wax seal. That's the thing between the toilet bowl and the floor. You're only replacing the toilet tank, so you can skim over everything up to the point where I talk about putting the tank back on.
(it's a biggee, so I hope it fits on this forum)
To replace a wax seal (and do some other nice things to keep your toilet happy):
First, go to Home Depot and get: 1) a Kant-leak wax seal, 2) a sponge tank-to-bowl gasket (the sponge gaskets for Crane toilets are red and the ones for American Standard toilets are grey), 3) a good close couple kit (the good one has brass bolts with LARGE heads and I can't remember if the rubber washers in it are fiber reinforced or not), and 4) a braided flex for making the water supply connection to your toilet, if you don't already have one. You can do with a plastic flexitube, but the ones with the ends built into them are the least likely to leak. Be careful the flex says "Closet" on it, meaning "water closet" (or toilet). They also make braided flex's for faucets, and the large ends are different between the two. Also, try to get real stainless steel wire sheathing on it if possible. Home Depot also sells these with silver coloured vinyl strand sheaths, which look very similar. You don't need the strength of steel, but they're the same price, so I'd get stainless for my money.
Take the close couple kit to a fastener supply store. You want to have a total of 6 solid brass 5/16 inch ID washers when you leave, so if the ones in the close couple kit are flimsey, buy six. If they're the same as the ones they sell, just buy four. You also need two 5/16 inch NC (meaning National Coarse thread) brass nuts (5/16 by 16 threads per inch), two 5/16 inch NF (National Fine thread) brass nuts (5/16 by 24 threads per inch) which should tread easily on to your tank-to-bowl bolts and two 5/16 inch fine thread brass "jam" nuts which should also thread easily onto those same bolts. Jam nust are just like regular nuts, only half as thick.
Also, take your close couple kit to any plumbing wholesaler. You want to leave there with a total of 4 fiber reinforced rubber washers that fit snugly on your tank-to-bowl bolts. If the ones in the close couple kit look as strong as the fiber reinforced ones they bring you, just buy two more. If not, buy four strong fiber reinforced rubber washers. They'll probably give them to you. Note that you can reuse the brass nuts that came off your toilet, but for the dollar new nuts are going to cost, it makes the job go easier and cleaner.
First, shut off the water supply to your toilet. If this means shutting off the water to the whole bathroom, hire a plumber just to solder in a Brasscraft shut off valve on the supply line to the toilet and reconnect it for you.
Now, once your water supply to the toilet is shut off, flush it to drain most of the water out of the tank, and dab out what's left with a sponge or rag. Disconnect the water supply line to the toilet, and loosen the brass nuts on the underside of the bowl holding the tank down. It's often not necessary to hold the bolt head steady when you loosen the nuts because the rubber washer holds it a bit. These are normal right hand thread, so if they're awful hard to turn while holding the top of the bolt inside the tank from moving, it's because the threads are corroded, and the nut won't plough through that corrosion.
If your bolts are corroded and you can't get your tank off, the best thing to do is to take the toilet seat off temporarily, and cut through the bolts with a hack saw. I use a Milwaukee sawzall to do this, but if you don't have one, just grip the bolt underneath with a pair of vice grips and make a long lonely evening of it, just you, the hack saw blade and those brass bolts. The upside is that the bolt is brass, so it'll cut a lot easier than steel.
Once you have both bolts out (or cut), lift the tank off the bowl and pour what ever water is left in it into a pail, and set the tank upside down on some newspaper or a towel to drip. Pull the sponge gasket off the flush valve. If it's a Crane toilet, this sponge gasket should be red. If it's an American Standard, it should be grey (but it'll look black).
Now take all the water out of the bowl whatever way you can. Sponges work. Once the toilet bowl has been emptied, remove the bowl-to-flange bolts holding it down to the floor.
You may also have two other screws further toward the front of the toilet bowl holding it down to the floor. These are usually made of brass coated steel and are notorious for rusting off. If these other two screws break off flush with the floor because they're so rusted, there's an easiest way to remove them. Drill a hole smaller than the apparant diameter of the screw (try to guess the diameter of the shank of the screw) right beside it. Now drive an awl down beside the screw opposite the hole to move the screw over, part way into the new hole. Once it's moved over far enough, you can grip both sides of it with a pair of needle nose vice grips. Now just rock it back and forth while pulling up and you should get it out.
Once everything holding the toilet down is off, don't pull straight up on the toilet, but gently push it from side to side until the seal gives and you can rock it back and forth a bit to dislodge it gently from the floor flange. If you have a lead bend with a putty seal like they used years ago, and you pull straight up on it, you could damage the lead on your floor flange. Once you have it in the air, turn it almost upside down and hold it over the tub to drain the water out of the trap. Do this a few times because you might not get it all out the first time. Set it upside down on news paper or a towel, too.
Once you take your old toilet bowl off, remove the putty or wax seal from the floor flange carefully until you can tell if you have an ABS floor flange or a lead bend with a brass floor flange. If you have a "lead bend" then you'll see what looks like a large lead pipe going up through the brass floor flange and the end of this lead pipe will be flared outward by pounding with a mallet so as to partially cover the brass floor flange. If you're too aggressive, you could damage this lead. If you have an ABS floor flange, it'll be made of black plastic. Scrape the putty or wax off the floor flange (and lead) and clean it with solvent. Also, clean the bottom of the toilet of wax or putty and wipe up the top of the bowl where the sponge gasket was located.
It's a good idea to fill in any holes in your floor flange with something that will prevent the water getting in. Silicon of floor leveler work well. Obviously for these to stick well to the floor flange, you have to do a good job removing the putty or wax. I also like to caulk with silicon between the floor flange and the floor, and I even fill in the slotted holes where the flange-to-bowl bolts go with silicon because I realize that the liklihood I'm going to need to remove them is low, and I can always cut out the silicon to get them out if I need to. To do this on a new flange, hold the bolts up in their slots with a washer and nut tightened down on them, then just caulk with silicon. DON'T silicon around the base of your toilet bowl after it's on. If there's a leak, you want to know about it by seeing water on your linoleum, not by seeing water dripping from the ceiling below!
To prevent sewer gas from coming into the bathroom while you work, stuff a large wax paper drinking cup in the floor flange.
Get a new "Kantleak" wax seal (with the plastic insert) and press it firmly onto the horn on the underside of the toilet bowl. Take 3 or 4 wooden shims and stack them up near where you expect the front of the toilet will be. It's not necessary to put shims on each side of where the toilet bowl will be because the wax seal is large enough and hard enough to support the back in a fairly level position. Place the toilet bowl onto the floor flange, being ca
I wrote up the following instructions for people on how to replace a wax seal. That's the thing between the toilet bowl and the floor. You're only replacing the toilet tank, so you can skim over everything up to the point where I talk about putting the tank back on.
(it's a biggee, so I hope it fits on this forum)
To replace a wax seal (and do some other nice things to keep your toilet happy):
First, go to Home Depot and get: 1) a Kant-leak wax seal, 2) a sponge tank-to-bowl gasket (the sponge gaskets for Crane toilets are red and the ones for American Standard toilets are grey), 3) a good close couple kit (the good one has brass bolts with LARGE heads and I can't remember if the rubber washers in it are fiber reinforced or not), and 4) a braided flex for making the water supply connection to your toilet, if you don't already have one. You can do with a plastic flexitube, but the ones with the ends built into them are the least likely to leak. Be careful the flex says "Closet" on it, meaning "water closet" (or toilet). They also make braided flex's for faucets, and the large ends are different between the two. Also, try to get real stainless steel wire sheathing on it if possible. Home Depot also sells these with silver coloured vinyl strand sheaths, which look very similar. You don't need the strength of steel, but they're the same price, so I'd get stainless for my money.
Take the close couple kit to a fastener supply store. You want to have a total of 6 solid brass 5/16 inch ID washers when you leave, so if the ones in the close couple kit are flimsey, buy six. If they're the same as the ones they sell, just buy four. You also need two 5/16 inch NC (meaning National Coarse thread) brass nuts (5/16 by 16 threads per inch), two 5/16 inch NF (National Fine thread) brass nuts (5/16 by 24 threads per inch) which should tread easily on to your tank-to-bowl bolts and two 5/16 inch fine thread brass "jam" nuts which should also thread easily onto those same bolts. Jam nust are just like regular nuts, only half as thick.
Also, take your close couple kit to any plumbing wholesaler. You want to leave there with a total of 4 fiber reinforced rubber washers that fit snugly on your tank-to-bowl bolts. If the ones in the close couple kit look as strong as the fiber reinforced ones they bring you, just buy two more. If not, buy four strong fiber reinforced rubber washers. They'll probably give them to you. Note that you can reuse the brass nuts that came off your toilet, but for the dollar new nuts are going to cost, it makes the job go easier and cleaner.
First, shut off the water supply to your toilet. If this means shutting off the water to the whole bathroom, hire a plumber just to solder in a Brasscraft shut off valve on the supply line to the toilet and reconnect it for you.
Now, once your water supply to the toilet is shut off, flush it to drain most of the water out of the tank, and dab out what's left with a sponge or rag. Disconnect the water supply line to the toilet, and loosen the brass nuts on the underside of the bowl holding the tank down. It's often not necessary to hold the bolt head steady when you loosen the nuts because the rubber washer holds it a bit. These are normal right hand thread, so if they're awful hard to turn while holding the top of the bolt inside the tank from moving, it's because the threads are corroded, and the nut won't plough through that corrosion.
If your bolts are corroded and you can't get your tank off, the best thing to do is to take the toilet seat off temporarily, and cut through the bolts with a hack saw. I use a Milwaukee sawzall to do this, but if you don't have one, just grip the bolt underneath with a pair of vice grips and make a long lonely evening of it, just you, the hack saw blade and those brass bolts. The upside is that the bolt is brass, so it'll cut a lot easier than steel.
Once you have both bolts out (or cut), lift the tank off the bowl and pour what ever water is left in it into a pail, and set the tank upside down on some newspaper or a towel to drip. Pull the sponge gasket off the flush valve. If it's a Crane toilet, this sponge gasket should be red. If it's an American Standard, it should be grey (but it'll look black).
Now take all the water out of the bowl whatever way you can. Sponges work. Once the toilet bowl has been emptied, remove the bowl-to-flange bolts holding it down to the floor.
You may also have two other screws further toward the front of the toilet bowl holding it down to the floor. These are usually made of brass coated steel and are notorious for rusting off. If these other two screws break off flush with the floor because they're so rusted, there's an easiest way to remove them. Drill a hole smaller than the apparant diameter of the screw (try to guess the diameter of the shank of the screw) right beside it. Now drive an awl down beside the screw opposite the hole to move the screw over, part way into the new hole. Once it's moved over far enough, you can grip both sides of it with a pair of needle nose vice grips. Now just rock it back and forth while pulling up and you should get it out.
Once everything holding the toilet down is off, don't pull straight up on the toilet, but gently push it from side to side until the seal gives and you can rock it back and forth a bit to dislodge it gently from the floor flange. If you have a lead bend with a putty seal like they used years ago, and you pull straight up on it, you could damage the lead on your floor flange. Once you have it in the air, turn it almost upside down and hold it over the tub to drain the water out of the trap. Do this a few times because you might not get it all out the first time. Set it upside down on news paper or a towel, too.
Once you take your old toilet bowl off, remove the putty or wax seal from the floor flange carefully until you can tell if you have an ABS floor flange or a lead bend with a brass floor flange. If you have a "lead bend" then you'll see what looks like a large lead pipe going up through the brass floor flange and the end of this lead pipe will be flared outward by pounding with a mallet so as to partially cover the brass floor flange. If you're too aggressive, you could damage this lead. If you have an ABS floor flange, it'll be made of black plastic. Scrape the putty or wax off the floor flange (and lead) and clean it with solvent. Also, clean the bottom of the toilet of wax or putty and wipe up the top of the bowl where the sponge gasket was located.
It's a good idea to fill in any holes in your floor flange with something that will prevent the water getting in. Silicon of floor leveler work well. Obviously for these to stick well to the floor flange, you have to do a good job removing the putty or wax. I also like to caulk with silicon between the floor flange and the floor, and I even fill in the slotted holes where the flange-to-bowl bolts go with silicon because I realize that the liklihood I'm going to need to remove them is low, and I can always cut out the silicon to get them out if I need to. To do this on a new flange, hold the bolts up in their slots with a washer and nut tightened down on them, then just caulk with silicon. DON'T silicon around the base of your toilet bowl after it's on. If there's a leak, you want to know about it by seeing water on your linoleum, not by seeing water dripping from the ceiling below!
To prevent sewer gas from coming into the bathroom while you work, stuff a large wax paper drinking cup in the floor flange.
Get a new "Kantleak" wax seal (with the plastic insert) and press it firmly onto the horn on the underside of the toilet bowl. Take 3 or 4 wooden shims and stack them up near where you expect the front of the toilet will be. It's not necessary to put shims on each side of where the toilet bowl will be because the wax seal is large enough and hard enough to support the back in a fairly level position. Place the toilet bowl onto the floor flange, being ca
#5
09-15-00, 10:01 PM
Wow...... Nestor
And how long did it take for you to type all that out?
Trick of the trade if the tank bolts are rusted and you can't get the off, and it comes down to the hacksaw..... With a good pair of vise grips, lock on to the bottom threads of the bolt, now you will have a grip on the bolt, then take the correct size wrench and loosen the nut down as far as needed, for you to cut the bolt off with the hacksaw, above the nut level. This is very effective when they don't want to unscrew easy. Saves time trying to hacksaw between the tank and bowl.
Best Regards Plumber2000
www.atozplumbing.com
[This message has been edited by Plumber2000 (edited September 16, 2000).]
And how long did it take for you to type all that out?
Trick of the trade if the tank bolts are rusted and you can't get the off, and it comes down to the hacksaw..... With a good pair of vise grips, lock on to the bottom threads of the bolt, now you will have a grip on the bolt, then take the correct size wrench and loosen the nut down as far as needed, for you to cut the bolt off with the hacksaw, above the nut level. This is very effective when they don't want to unscrew easy. Saves time trying to hacksaw between the tank and bowl.
Best Regards Plumber2000
www.atozplumbing.com
[This message has been edited by Plumber2000 (edited September 16, 2000).]
#6
09-15-00, 10:50 PM
Nestor, I have to TOTALLY disagree with your advise against caulking around the joint where the floor and the toilet bowl meet. The purpose of caulking that joint is to keep water that splashes on the floor from seeping under the bowl and eventually rotting out the subfloor. It has nothing to do with the wax ring failing and leaking water out onto the floor. Otherwise, nice post, EXCEPT 'perplexed' was posting about replacing the tank-to-bowl connector, not the wax ring!
#7
09-15-00, 11:14 PM
Lefty,
I agree to the caulking that it should be done, and it is code in most states that it be done like that, I caulk around the base, but I do leave the back side not caulked, do to possible wax ring failure in the future, thay do fail, and I would rather see it happen then not see it at all, if you don't see it happening, it will be too late when you do see it, the floor will be damaged. Seen this happen many times.
Just my thoughts.
Best Regards Plumber2000
www.atozplumbimg.com
I agree to the caulking that it should be done, and it is code in most states that it be done like that, I caulk around the base, but I do leave the back side not caulked, do to possible wax ring failure in the future, thay do fail, and I would rather see it happen then not see it at all, if you don't see it happening, it will be too late when you do see it, the floor will be damaged. Seen this happen many times.
Just my thoughts.
Best Regards Plumber2000
www.atozplumbimg.com
#8
09-16-00, 05:52 PM
Hello Plumber2000 and Lefty
Perhaps I should introduce myself. You already know my name. I own a small apartment block in Winnipeg, Manitoba and have spent the past 14 years renovating it. That's why you'll find me in the Cleaning, Painting, Appliance Repair, Carpeting, Plastering and Ceramic Tiling forums, as well as others that don't come to mind right now. Up until recently, I was answering questions at the Today's Homeowner web site, but I kind of got p'd off at people there. Life goes on.
Plumber2000: I didn't type it out. I CTRL-C copied it from a Windows Notepad file I have on my computer and CTRL-V pasted it into the reply box. I decided to type that thing out because of all the questions people were asking about replacing wax seals. I thought that cutting and pasting one post that covered everything would be far faster and more informative than answering each individual's question. As for the corroded tank to bowl bolts, I have a Milwaukee Sawzall with the flush cutting accessory. I use nothing but solid brass in my plumbing, but friends have called me in a panic because their bolts were steel, rusted and not coming off. In those circumstances, I just remove the toilet seat (or tell them to) and cut the bolts off with a metal cutting blade.
Lefty: I know perplexed was talking about the sponge gasket. I told her to skim over everything in the post to the point where I talk about putting the tank back on. As far as caulking the bowl to the floor goes, I recommend filling in all the unnecessary holes in the floor flange with caulking, and also caulking between the floor flange and the finished floor. On the toilets I do, I even squeeze silicone under the flange to bowl bolts because if push comes to shove, I can always drill that silicone out and get the bolt out that way. In 14 years I've never needed to remove a flange to bowl bolt without also needing to remove the whole flange. Anyway, if you caulk the flange good, you don't need caulking around the bowl, and caulking around the bowl will prevent you from seeing a problem if the wax seal is leaking.
Perhaps I should introduce myself. You already know my name. I own a small apartment block in Winnipeg, Manitoba and have spent the past 14 years renovating it. That's why you'll find me in the Cleaning, Painting, Appliance Repair, Carpeting, Plastering and Ceramic Tiling forums, as well as others that don't come to mind right now. Up until recently, I was answering questions at the Today's Homeowner web site, but I kind of got p'd off at people there. Life goes on.
Plumber2000: I didn't type it out. I CTRL-C copied it from a Windows Notepad file I have on my computer and CTRL-V pasted it into the reply box. I decided to type that thing out because of all the questions people were asking about replacing wax seals. I thought that cutting and pasting one post that covered everything would be far faster and more informative than answering each individual's question. As for the corroded tank to bowl bolts, I have a Milwaukee Sawzall with the flush cutting accessory. I use nothing but solid brass in my plumbing, but friends have called me in a panic because their bolts were steel, rusted and not coming off. In those circumstances, I just remove the toilet seat (or tell them to) and cut the bolts off with a metal cutting blade.
Lefty: I know perplexed was talking about the sponge gasket. I told her to skim over everything in the post to the point where I talk about putting the tank back on. As far as caulking the bowl to the floor goes, I recommend filling in all the unnecessary holes in the floor flange with caulking, and also caulking between the floor flange and the finished floor. On the toilets I do, I even squeeze silicone under the flange to bowl bolts because if push comes to shove, I can always drill that silicone out and get the bolt out that way. In 14 years I've never needed to remove a flange to bowl bolt without also needing to remove the whole flange. Anyway, if you caulk the flange good, you don't need caulking around the bowl, and caulking around the bowl will prevent you from seeing a problem if the wax seal is leaking.
#9
09-16-00, 06:50 PM
Nestor,
I like to welcome you to doityourself.com
All views are welcome here and glad you can help out in here. We all can learn from each other, and in turn we get a better understanding and knowledge.
If my post to you offened you, please don't take me the wrong way, I always like to let others know of a trick or two to make a task that much eaiser.
I don't like to tell you how to do things but like to help if I can show if there is any easier way at doing something.
I thought that was you when I seen your name, I have been at that site before, you have seen me on there before also.
Anyways welcome to doityourself.com
Glad to have you join us.
Best Regards Plumber2000
www.atozplumbing.com
[This message has been edited by Plumber2000 (edited September 16, 2000).]
I like to welcome you to doityourself.com
All views are welcome here and glad you can help out in here. We all can learn from each other, and in turn we get a better understanding and knowledge.
If my post to you offened you, please don't take me the wrong way, I always like to let others know of a trick or two to make a task that much eaiser.
I don't like to tell you how to do things but like to help if I can show if there is any easier way at doing something.
I thought that was you when I seen your name, I have been at that site before, you have seen me on there before also.
Anyways welcome to doityourself.com
Glad to have you join us.
Best Regards Plumber2000
www.atozplumbing.com
[This message has been edited by Plumber2000 (edited September 16, 2000).]
#10
09-16-00, 07:41 PM
You didn't offend me Plumber2000.
I don't offend easy. What kinda sets me off, and what happened frequently in the Today's Homeowner forum is that someone who didn't know much and presumed that was all there was to know (and therefore he knew it all) would end up telling me I didn't know what I was talking about. That in itself didn't bug me because I'm used to that from the people that work at home centers. What bugged me was the person posting the question didn't know enough to know who to believe, and I had no way of convincing her, and I'm volunteering my time, and I don't need this and life is too short anyway.
Anyway, glad to be here.
I don't offend easy. What kinda sets me off, and what happened frequently in the Today's Homeowner forum is that someone who didn't know much and presumed that was all there was to know (and therefore he knew it all) would end up telling me I didn't know what I was talking about. That in itself didn't bug me because I'm used to that from the people that work at home centers. What bugged me was the person posting the question didn't know enough to know who to believe, and I had no way of convincing her, and I'm volunteering my time, and I don't need this and life is too short anyway.
Anyway, glad to be here.
