PVC Glue -VS- CPVC Glue

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  #1  
Old 01-15-05, 09:58 PM
Hillegas
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PVC Glue -VS- CPVC Glue

I took 2 pieces of 3\4 cpvc and glued them in 3 steps, cleaner\primer\glue.

One piece I used pvc glue the other I used cpvc glue.

Both pieces are glued tight, and I can not break, move or distrub the seal with my own strength.

I compared the labels and both glues have almost identical chemicals in them.

I was told that it doesn't really matter by one person.

But then the guy at lowes told me no way that pvc glue wouldn't work on cpvc because it's different material and it won't seal etc.. etc....

Does it really matter? I mean I assume your saposta use cpvc glue when using cpvc. But if you did use pvc glue on some joint is that bad?
 
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  #2  
Old 01-16-05, 06:34 AM
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The joints may hold...then again they might fail down the line. While they may have CLOSE to the same ingredients, they ARE different. Kind of like welding stainless steel to carbon steel with carbon rod. It can be done but is not as strong as using the proper rod. Good luck.
Oatey makes a glue for ABS, PVC and CPVC. Claims it seals all. I do use a lot of Oatey products.
 
  #3  
Old 01-16-05, 09:24 AM
Hillegas
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I guess I'm screwed once again.

I just realized, that I used pvc glue on a whole bunch of fittings in the last bunch of days.

So I'm faced with the problem, do I rip out everything I've done, and re do it. Or cross my fingers and hope it holds?

I really don't see how it could fail.

I made mock up pieces using both glues and they both hold the same to me. Like I said I can't pshyically break the joint.

If it holds pressure and doesn't leak now.

What would cause it to leak later?

I'm sure water can't effect the pvc glue, cause then it would be useless on pvc?

this sucks
 
  #4  
Old 01-16-05, 09:29 AM
Hillegas
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Anyone else have any experience on this?

I'll have to rip down a bunch of rock to expose some spots I've covered, and it'll be a really big pain in the *ss do rip out everything I've already done. But if it's 100% positive it's gonna leak I gotta do what I gotta do.

I'm getting mixed answered and I have no idea which is true.

But if I have to rip it apart now is the time to do it.

So will cpvc joint that are cleaned\primed\and glued with pvc hold?
 
  #5  
Old 01-16-05, 11:42 AM
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I would call the manufacturer of the glue or the manufacturer of the pipe. This should get the straight dope! ( no pun intended)
 
  #6  
Old 01-16-05, 12:21 PM
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My OPINION is that it will not leak. I am used to working under conditions where it is company policy or code. In Florida you had to use Purple cleaner on all joints, Could not use clear cleaner. I have seen guys run out of Purple or not have it on the truck, use the clear and come back later and "paint" the Purple on the joints. If you got any answer but "NO You can't do that" from a manufacturer I would be surpised as it would put them in a bad legal position. Thats why they say to let joints sit for so long before turning the water back on. Cover their butts. Good luck.
 
  #7  
Old 01-16-05, 08:03 PM
Hillegas
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I used clear cleaner, then purple primer.... but i was talking about the glue being different.

I myself don't think the clear or purple cleaner would matter?
 
  #8  
Old 01-16-05, 08:11 PM
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In my opinion I don't think you will have a problem with the joints you glued. My comments about the cleaner were only made because of what some people THINK they see is not what actually what is there. A manufacturer cannot say to go against whats on the can or they are legally responsible. I have never waited 2 hours before turning the water back on after a repair....but....if I would have had a leak it would have been MY fault because I didn't wait. They all cover their butts to keep from being sued.
If you used proper procedure, even though you used the wrong glue, I don't think it will leak.
 
  #9  
Old 01-16-05, 08:18 PM
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The two types of plastic are very different and so are the cleaners, primers and cements. Unless you use All Purpose you must use the proper cleaner, primer and cement for the tubing being used. All manufacturers will say that and IMO it's not to cover their butts although it could be but I wouldn't bet my house and its contents on it simply to save redoing some plumbing I've just done.

Gary
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Last edited by Doug Aleshire; 03-11-05 at 03:31 PM.
  #10  
Old 01-17-05, 06:09 AM
Hillegas
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This drives my crazy......

Because all I can go on is other peoples opinions. Some say it's ok some say no way. Now the guy in the store said it wouldn't work at all. Obvisously he's wrong cause it does hold.

I myself don't see any reason of why it won't hold? The mock up pieces I've glued with with both glues are identical and I can not break them. I made the one piece with the wrong glue and passed it around to 3 buddies and had them try and break it all night the other day. It will not break. You can't even put vise grips on each piece and remove it.

The cpvc will break before the joint breaks.

What would cause any of these joint to fail later on down the road if there fine now? I can't tell a different between the 2 pieces I've made, one with pvc glue and the other with cpvc glue.... like said cleaned and primed first.

I need to talk to an old experienced plumber or someone whos done this before.

Because I could be ripping out alot of work, and wasting alot of money for no reason at all, just because of a different sticker on the outside of the can and some people opinions?

Then again I have to think what if it fails? But I can't see why it would?

Has anyone ever heard of a failure due to these circumstances?
 
  #11  
Old 01-17-05, 11:07 AM
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I know, it's a bummer but... Try this for why it's not a good idea to not replace it... water hammer. Silent or not, it increases the water pressure to up to 4 times the line pressure; I.E. 50*4=200 psi 90 psi becomes like 360 lbs. Any of those guys on your couch weigh 360? If so tie him or two of'em fast to one end of the pieces and throw him/them off the balcony or overpass and see if your theory holds.... Now how much pressure are you and the dudes using to try and pull those two pieces apart?

As to the old plumber... I'm not a plumber but I'm considered by some to be old; at 62. I have done a lot of CPVC and PVC plumbing on water lines over the last 17 years to install water treatment equipment and well pumps and pressure tanks. All in customers' houses/buildings/wells/basements etc.. Do you see my replies as more than half baked opinions yet?

Gary
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Last edited by Doug Aleshire; 03-11-05 at 03:31 PM.
  #12  
Old 01-17-05, 08:56 PM
Hillegas
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?I have done a lot of CPVC and PVC plumbing on water lines over the last 17 years to install water treatment equipment and well pumps and pressure tanks. All in customers' houses/buildings/wells/basements etc.."

This is great, but* do you have any knowledge directly on the subject of this thread? Do you have any experiences either direct or indirect that relate to my initial question? Have you seen cpvc fail when used with pvc?

"Do you see my replies as more than half baked opinions yet? "

Yes I do unless you have personal experience or knowledge with the question above. Seen or heard of a failure do to this? Because by the book I know it's wrong. But maybe in real life it'll hold and I have no problem?

Yes I know it is wrong. Yes I know the correct thing to do would be to rip it all out and start over. I guess that's obvious. But when I have people telling me to stop worring, that it'll be fine, I have no idea what to think.

And I will have a large amount of work to do, ripping down rock, and ripping out all thats done. It'll turn into a large project, and I'm really looking to sqeeze time. So leaving everything be and finishing the job, if it hold pressure and passes inspection... I guess I'll see what happens? I'll be living in this place for the next 6 months now, so if there is a failure within that time I'll be able to repair it then. But then the damage that could occur....

I didn't mean my message, any of them to be a direct attack on anyone? I'm just simply asking questions and learning as I go. I try to use my own judgement and the judgement of others to make an informed decision.

Now I've gotten a 50\50 mixed review on numerous people I've asked. I have no idea.

I apologize for making anyone feel by my previous post that I was being negative about there reply's.
 
  #13  
Old 01-18-05, 04:34 AM
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This thread is getting argumentative.
Bottom line is that NO ONE can tell you that the joints will or will not hold. Even if you followed all procedures properly, used the right cleaners and glue and the same pipe types, there is ALWAYS the possibility of a leak. It is now up to you to decide if you want to take the chance or not.
 
  #14  
Old 01-18-05, 07:25 AM
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Hillegas, to solve your problem of differing opinions, have all those that tell you it will be okay and not leak sign up to accept the liability if they're wrong. I'll bet you can't get one of them to do so nor would they not tear it out and redo it if they had done the same as you have for one of their customers; used both cleaner and primer but the wrong ones for the tubing and then, the wrong cement for the tubing. But then I could be wrong...

Gary
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Last edited by Doug Aleshire; 03-11-05 at 03:31 PM.
  #15  
Old 01-18-05, 08:40 AM
Hillegas
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I apologize for getting argumentative.

That solves nothing.

I will thank you guys for your input on the subject.

I'm now looking into "water hammer" and ways to get rid of it? Any info there?
I was reading about installing pipe that holds air to act as a "shock absorber'?

I'm researching this on the net now.
 
  #16  
Old 01-18-05, 08:42 AM
Hillegas
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pulsation dampener?
 
  #17  
Old 01-18-05, 08:54 AM
Hillegas
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Thank you for bringing the problem of "water hammer" to my attention.

Now I know I'll need to install some of these devices,

"Water Hammer Arresters" or "pulsation dampener" which ever you call it I'm assuming the same thing.

How many of these should I install and where should I buy them from?
 
  #18  
Old 01-18-05, 09:29 AM
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You can make your own. The commercial ones hold air in a chamber and that acts as a shock absorber. They wear out and have to be replaced. In Florida we just put a tee looking up in the lines at the highest spot and added a piece of pipe about 8" long with a cap on it. Does the same thing. Good luck.
 
  #19  
Old 01-18-05, 08:11 PM
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But in some places they aren't allowed due to the air being absorbed into the water and the 'stand pipe' filling with water. They also create dead ends that can not be santized which is not a good thing for water quality. The commercial types are better in that regard but... trying to cure this wrong cement, cleaner and primer plus the use of both cleaner and primer plumbing job is like adding more band-aids to the artery that is bleeding in many places. IMO it's a real bad and dumb idea and very probably if the insurance company adjuster looking at the future water damage claim nixes the claim it would be much more expensive than doing it right now by replacing the new tubing. And since this is a rental, tenants that have been water damaged and forced to move possibly aren't usually in a landlord pleasing mood at the time they're packing their soggy stuff in a U-Haul to take it to storage and going off to a few friends to beg a dry bed...

BTW, the best solution to prevent water hammer is by adjusting the pressure properly to maintain the proper water velocity for the tubing type and diameter being used. But that doesn't remove all water hammer... neither do arrestors. And over time the effects of water hammer are cumulative.

I'm done.

Gary
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Last edited by Doug Aleshire; 03-11-05 at 03:30 PM.
  #20  
Old 01-19-05, 06:50 AM
Hillegas
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I didn't use the wrong primer\cleaner & glue... just glue.

"Quote"

"trying to cure this wrong cement, cleaner and primer plus the use of both cleaner and primer plumbing job is like adding more band-aids to the artery that is bleeding in many places."

What does that mean you confused me? I used cleaner and primer on everything I do because I thought it was more proper then using a one step cement? Are you saying that since I used cleaner and primer it's going to leak in many places?

The cleaner & primer on the can says ok for cpvc\pvc etc.... I used heavy duty glue that didn't say cpvc on the front.....

I know this subject is like beating a dead horse.

I now understand the risk. The system is done, I'll be pressure testing it today hopefully.

If it fails while water is in the line I'll be living there for the next 6 months to year, maybe more?... and I'll deal with the problems. I have 2 to 3 more units I want to purchase on this street so I'll be in the area for years to come.

Everyone learns by experience, I know now that this will never happen again because I'll make sure I use the right stuff by the book. The way the place is layed out, if the plumbing fails it'll drain into the crawl space, and if the upstairs failed it would leak into a front corner. None of the plumbing is near main living space so the amount of damage would be minimized, but still damage..... I'll have to see what happens.

I did order the water hammer arrestors, and when they arrive I'm going to install a hand full of them in both the hot and cold lines.

Thank you everyone for your knowledge and opinions etc.....

It's a hard decision to make, and I'm going to try it out he way it is. Like I said, if it fails it's on me. I'll post back about it and everyone can laugh and make jokes at me.

Experience is the best teacher
 

Last edited by Hillegas; 01-19-05 at 06:57 AM. Reason: adding to message
  #21  
Old 01-19-05, 07:44 PM
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In my area I am replacing a good deal of this CPVC/PVC piping in homes where it has frozen and shattered at the fittings.



But I replace it with copper.

The #1 reason why there wasn't copper there to begin with?


The homeowner didn't know how to sweat copper.
 
  #22  
Old 01-21-05, 08:05 PM
Hillegas
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System is holding pressure at 65psi.

I installed 2 water hammer arrestors on each side cold\hot. 2 in the crawlspace near caseway that feeds the upstairs bath room, and 2 on the lines that feed the washer lines. I'll also be installing a pressure reducer set to 45\50psi.

So far tonight it's held 65psi for a few hours.
 
  #23  
Old 08-11-13, 07:16 PM
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How did it hold?

I know this is an old thread. How did the piping hold after all of these years?
 
  #24  
Old 08-11-13, 07:36 PM
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gdishon...Please start a new thread....

Thanks...
 
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